IAF Demand for 250 Tejas MK2

[PaliwalWarrior]

You are a propagandist. Who are you? What knowledge do you have of war? What makes you an expert?

I see you put grossly misleading statements on this Board.

Are you a Rafale salesman.

MMRCA tender is completely mismanaged. They are asking Rafale unit cost and lifecycle cost now - more than two years after tender is closed. The financial bid is most important in Government tender. I believe you have no knowledge of government procedures.

Only vendors that pass technical evaluation are supposed to give financial bids. And a finalist is chosen based on financial bid. The financial bid MUST have all the details which is needed for the government to make a decision. It is not that first a finalist is selected and then financial bid is asked two years later.

There is nothing to negotiate once the tender is closed. The negotiation must take place before the finalist is declared.

I have already told you the the procedures have been flouted in this tender.

The GOI is playing along but do not be very hopeful on Rafale.

If they reopen the tender (call for financial bids again) they will have to ask other parties too.

hehehehe

exactly what i told him 2 days ago

he will put you in ignore list just like me

the Rafaley Jamaat out here has been getting very touchy in the last fortnight

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Not less, but more.

lets first sign the up for 126 then talk of more

It's a fighter that is difficult to produce in large numbers. Our highest yearly delivery that we achieved was 15 out of a total production capacity of 16 per year. So, it's not slow. If you look at EF and Rafale, they are produced in lesser numbers comparatively.

no difficulty only production line capacity and delivery schedule
if IAF wants at rate of 12/year does it make any sense in producing 16/year ?
these are produced as per the delivery schedule asked for by IAF

What's funny is just yesterday we didn't have enough money for Rafale. Today we have enough money for much more than just Rafale.

MAybe rafale is given a quiet burial in coldstorage and the more bang for the buck formula being applied

The bigger problem is this news has not been reported anywhere else. I'm sure all our major newspapers would have picked it up and reported it by now, but I don't see anything. So we simply have to wait for official confirmation.

but i see you have no hesitation to believe news relationg tp rafale even if they are single reportingg

We can technically produce jets faster from a single production line by increasing work cells. And as long as Rafale and FGFA are not affected we can have any number of LCAs until AMCA comes online.

we dont actually need Rafale

 

[power_monger]

MAybe rafale is given a quiet burial in coldstorage and the more bang for the buck formula being applied

My only concerns here will be,our reputation will be hit badly if we do so. India will be seen as un-predictable country for buisness by outsiders which will impact other areas.
Outright cancelling the order should be avoided.insteaded they should go for some 20-30 flights order directly from france. Atleast this will avoid french doing huge outcry.

 

[Punya Pratap]

A few factors worth considering regarding this news :

1) First of all the second production line is not going to be an investment by Pvt Co alone but GoI - Pvt Co JV where the Pvt Co will act as a contractor to build a specific no of Tejas as per the quality requirements laid down.

2) Second of all and most important factor behind the proposal for having a second production line is the IAF's desperation to retire the Mig 21/27 at the earliest and hence the need for 252 Tejas Mk2. This is the most important factor why even GoI has agreed to this proposal.

3) IAF has been grumbling constantly regarding the quality standards and delays of HAL production... this second line shall ensure HAL makes a serious effort to improve coz competition always does that!
Even GoI knows that ---Case in point : (Centre blames HAL for failed fighter jet that left pilot with lifelong spinal injuries | Daily Mail Online)

4) The second production line will provide a better Managerial Culture which is sorely needed in every Indian Arms manufacturing since that is the core of Pvt Co's success and its greatest strength over PSU's

5) This shall build up a creditable Mill Tech Industrial base in India which is essential for realising self reliance.

6) For the future DRDO/HAL etc shall be tasked with R&D where as GoI-Pvt Co JV shall be the production houses ensuring each stick to their respective areas of core strength (DRDO/HAL=expertise & Pvt Cos=Better Manufacturing practises & Management of Projects ensuring faster and better production standards)

7) Through this The GoI is trying to ensure that there will be more answerability for both quality of the produce and production timing

8) The major factor behind whether Pvt Co's step in or not is whether HAL had any meaningful profit margins.... also Pvt Cos with streamlines production and better production practises will certainly increase the profits as well so dont worry about the fact that since HAL manufactures something it automatically means very little/no profits for Pvt Co's to get interested!

9) If and If the Goi-Pvt Co production line succeeds it shall give us numbers to attain the 44 Squds that IAF needs in the desired time frame other wise HAL shall take 15.5 years to manufacture the 252 Tejas Mk2 (16 a year which is the best you can expect from them.... they only managed 15 MKI's a year)

10) Goi-Pvt Co production shall also make Tejas an export candidate since foreign countries have no faith in HAL products and production but trust the Indian Pvt Sector more which has always been the engine behind India's Growth story.

11) The 2nd production line proposal also comes coz IAF wants HAL to focus on the future projects such as FGFA & AMCA + MMRCA (if it does come) coz those are technological more challenging than Tejas.

As Pm Modi has already articulated the "Chalta Hai" attitude has to be curtailed and this is his way of telling the DRDO and HAL .... pull up your socks !!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Tend quickly to the armed forces
Oct 06, 2014
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Given Pakistan's belligerence over Kashmir, the international border and the LoC will always bristle with problems for India. India's preparedness is a matter of national concern.
India is not best prepared to face the geopolitical pressures exerted by its north-western and northern neighbours. Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has been quite blunt in stating home truths about his ageing fleet of fighters even as the Indian Air Force is to celebrate its 82nd anniversary.
It is apparent that India will have to tend to its air power on a war footing, however inappropriate the phrase may sound. It must be considered India's good fortune that its eastern borders, with Bangladesh and Burma, are marked by problems of refugees and drug-running rather than a constant test of military preparedness.
The easing of tensions with China along the Line of Actual Control may have triggered great hope. The confrontations on the frontier during the visit of China's powerful President, Xi Jinping, may have been puzzling. Looking for a place in history as one of his country's greatest leaders, Mr Xi is trying to quickly establish total control over the People's Liberation Army to douse the fires. However, China, for obvious geopolitical reasons, will always compel India to engage on two fronts. Given Pakistan's belligerence over Kashmir, the international border and the LoC will always bristle with problems for India.
India's preparedness is a matter of national concern and it is as well that the highest ranking official of the armed forces has spoken up, although he did so only regarding the Air Force rather than the armed forces in general. The task of getting three vital wings of air power — the MMRCA, the Tejas light combat aircraft and a fleet of fifth-generation fighter aircraft — is mind-boggling considering how bogged down they are in red tape, acquisition issues, including that of unquenchable corruption, and loss of traction and momentum in decision-making in the recent past. It is a far from happy position.
A Prime Minister actively monitoring issues dogging the armed forces is an incipient sign that things may at last be moving. In its decline, the previous government had left mountains to climb in terms of combat readiness in the Army, technological issues of maintenance in the Navy and a massive shortage in quality fighter jets in the Air Force. The thrust for indigenisation is held up by India being decades behind in defence technology and capital funds. It is a triple whammy but the resolve to address them now is a significant step.
While China has assiduously built infrastructure in Ladakh and other areas abutting the LAC, we are still struggling to guard some of the highest places in the world. It is India's good fortune that we have one of the most disciplined armed forces in the region. To equip them with the best available technology and armour is the least we should attempt, and as quickly as possible.

 

[Zebra]

but these are all produced in australia and australian facilities

That's right. But only of them are in production as of yet, GA8 and GA10.

In near future they will get one more production plant. It will be in India.

Some background of that company.....GippsAero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Zebra]

^^
@PaliwalWarrior

Sorry, GA8 is in production.

GA10 is all new aircraft. Not sure though, it is in production or not yet.

 

[sgarg]

My only concerns here will be,our reputation will be hit badly if we do so. India will be seen as un-predictable country for buisness by outsiders which will impact other areas.
Outright cancelling the order should be avoided.insteaded they should go for some 20-30 flights order directly from france. Atleast this will avoid french doing huge outcry.

I think you need to understand what a tender is. There were 6 parties in the tender. If rules change for one, they change for other five too.
It was a two stage qualification. The first stage was technical and second stage was financial. The finalist had to clear both the stages.
While technical stage is understood (though other participants do not agree with IAF's conclusions), the tender was supposed to have a firm outcome on the financial side. How can you declare a winner when the financial commitment of GOI is not known till date.

IAF has a bad habit of changing specs. This does not work with tenders. The tender is always based on the current or offered model. You cannot put specs or consider something that will be available in future, as this way anybody can make claims and your process cannot verify claims.

The quantity does not matter. The process has to be same for everybody.

 

[sgarg]

"The task of getting three vital wings of air power — the MMRCA, the Tejas light combat aircraft and a fleet of fifth-generation fighter aircraft"

The government is really struggling with MMRCA. The government has good intentions. It is not that government is against Rafale.

The problem is the tender has very wide holes which are proving impossible to plug. It is a testimony to the ineptness of the previous government.

I do not advise the current government to walk into a scandal just due to noise coming from IAF.

If everything was OK with MMRCA tender, then why Antony did not approve the deal?

I do not buy this noise about HAL and warranty issues.

 

[Punya Pratap]

The point with MMRCA acquisition is that India has never done anything of this sort ever so there are two major factors:

A) The calculation of precise Life Cycle & ToT costs is suspect due to lack of experience and expertise in deriving the PRECISE costs

B) The most compelling factor was ToT achieved from MMRCA that was to increase our Mill Tech knowledge but will the ToT be a genuine one since no firm (including Dassault) will hand over critical tech to us

That is why Tejas is important..... if nobody gives us critical tech we might as well develop it on our own so I am happy with this 252 Tejas Mk2 production!

 

[sgarg]

It is not a question of what we desire as side-effects from a tender.

It is what is IN the tender. A competition is based on well-defined rules. You do not have the luxury of changing the rules everyday.

People (salesman) will come and show you the treasure at the other end of the rainbow. But can you run a tender on the basis of such claims.

I agree that this tender was a first exercise of this kind. IAF and MOD suffered from lack of experience. However many times you face such situations. One has to devise methods and processes to deal with the situation.

For example TOT and lifecycle costs should have been separate heads. You have the basic cost of the aircraft. Then you have the cost of setting up a factory in India which is a separate cost. The maintenance cost is separate. The maintenance can be done by the Indian production agency for the aircraft.

The second issue is warranty for India built aircrafts. All Dassault has to do is QA for aircrafts built at HAL. However they may feel it is difficult for them as HAL will not listen to their advice. This is a deadlock and we have no deal. A 40 year long contract has to be built on trust and faith. How can Dassault says it does not trust Indian partner?

The GOI made the mistake of pushing HAL on Dassault. If they want to go with Reliance, then let them. GOI can always mandate that 60% of the aircraft will be built locally so that Reliance is forced to set up a proper manufacturing plant.

This tender is a comedy of errors.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Lets not get personal, Specially keep out abusive words. ..

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, :thumb:

Where are you my friend...!

Good news here "IAF Demand for 250 Tejas MK2".

Lot of guys who were bragging day and night about tejas just being a trainer are going to eat crow now.

tejas mk2 is nothing but the next tranche of tejas mk1 with same wing loading and many similar design traits.

Even the air inlet is proposed to be increased by just 100 mm in dia. So a lot of people telling endless lies about faulty tejas air intake will have a lot of explaining to do.

Anyway , with the new govt in saddle we can look for some action in this front.

HAL has already invested close to 1500 crore and info is its own production line will be idle after just two or three years if more orders are not given for tejas mk1.

It should be the first problem tackled with urgency. because if HAL couldn't get non stop order for its own tejas production line then relation ship between ADA and HAL in the upcoming AMCA project will be be problematic as well. Because HAL will know that AMCA order too will be routed to private lines once it does the hard work of doing developmental engineering.

rather than asking private sector to set up a new production line, govt should re organize HAL into five entities with,

1. helicopter production entity,
2. Sukhoi and FGFA production entity,
3.tejas production entity
4. trainer production entity,
5. transport and civil air craft production entity.

Then govt should privatize the co by finding strategic investor for each of the three entities making them joint sector company like maruthi Suzuki once was.

This will infuse tens of billions of dollars of capital investment into all crucial govt sectors which indian private sector can easily muster.

best management practices will evolve all across the indian aviation sector heralding much shorter developmental time and true export potential.

All three joint sector entities should be asked set aside ten percent or so of their turnover separately for R&D across the board.

This will be a much better idea than giving just a parcel of tejas production to separate private entity.

However if higher tejas mk2 numbers are of urgent nature that can not wait for such deep restructuring arrangement then it is prudent to invite private sector for a second production line immediately. with a confirmed order numbers close to 300 there will be enough workshare for both HAl line and the proposed new line.

but first priority is to give a confirmed 80 tejas mk1 orders to the HAL line so that non stop production for the next four years continue on that line.

 

[Zebra]

Lot of guys who were bragging day and night about tejas just being a trainer are going to eat crow now.

tejas mk2 is nothing but the next tranche of tejas mk1 with same wing loading and many similar design traits.

Even the air inlet is proposed to be increased by just 100 mm in dia. So a lot of people telling endless lies about faulty tejas air intake will have a lot of explaining to do.

Anyway , with the new govt in saddle we can look for some action in this front.

HAL has already invested close to 1500 crore and info is its own production line will be idle after just two or three years if more orders are not given for tejas mk1.

It should be the first problem tackled with urgency. because if HAL couldn't get non stop order for its own tejas production line then relation ship between ADA and HAL in the upcoming AMCA project will be be problematic as well. Because HAL will know that AMCA order too will be routed to private lines once it does the hard work of doing developmental engineering.

rather than asking private sector to set up a new production line, govt should re organize HAL into five entities with,

1. helicopter production entity,
2. Sukhoi and FGFA production entity,
3.tejas production entity
4. trainer production entity,
5. transport and civil air craft production entity.

Then govt should privatize the co by finding strategic investor for each of the three entities making them joint sector company like maruthi Suzuki once was.

This will infuse tens of billions of dollars of capital investment into all crucial govt sectors which indian private sector can easily muster.

best management practices will evolve all across the indian aviation sector heralding much shorter developmental time and true export potential.

All three joint sector entities should be asked set aside ten percent or so of their turnover separately for R&D across the board.

This will be a much better idea than giving just a parcel of tejas production to separate private entity.

However if higher tejas mk2 numbers are of urgent nature that can not wait for such deep restructuring arrangement then it is prudent to invite private sector for a second production line immediately. with a confirmed order numbers close to 300 there will be enough workshare for both HAl line and the proposed new line.

but first priority is to give a confirmed 80 tejas mk1 orders to the HAL line so that non stop production for the next four years continue on that line.

I think HAL will get more orders.

 

[ersakthivel]

From karan's post in BR, the IAF view on kargil bombing,

Firstly, in the area of interdiction of enemy supplies, the successful and incessant attacks on the enemy's logistic machine had, over the last few weeks, culminated in a serious degradation of the enemy's ability to sustain himself in an increasing number of areas.

The series of attacks against Pt 4388 in the Dras sector was an excellent example of how lethal air strikes combined with timely reconnaissance detected the enemy plans to shift to alternate supply routes which were once again effectively attacked. In this the IAF succeeded in strangling the enemy supply arteries, amply testified to by enemy radio intercepts.

The primacy of interdiction targets as opposed to Battlefield Air Strikes (BAS) targets was clearly brought out, as also the fact that air power is not to be frittered away on insignificant targets like machine gun posts and trenches, but on large targets of consequence (like the supply camp at Muntho Dhalo or the enemy Battalion HQ on top of Tiger Hill).

Gone are the days of fighters screaming in at deck level, acting as a piece of extended artillery. The air defence environment of today's battlefield just does not permit such employment of airpower anymore, a significant fact that needs to be understood by soldier and civilian alike.

This is IAF view on CAS after kargil strikes by low wing loading mirage-2000.

people saying that jags and mig-27 which are good for these deck level strikes with rocket pods acting like extended artillery should update themselves on these developments and Why IAF from Kargil days is looking for low wing loading multi role planes opposed to dedicated CAS planes like JAGs and Mig-27s.

Tejas is the cost effective new age CAS platform, no doubt about it.

 

[Kharavela]

why should the fruits of years of labour of ADA / HAL be given away to pvt cos

what do they bring on table ?

whyis the IAF which was not ready to induct tejas just 2 years ago now pressing for pvt mfg line ?

ff it was not for the IN the IAF had almost killed the LCA project

No

The LCA MK2 should go to HAL only

IMO, private players like TASL, L&T, M&M may be roped in as sub-contractors to speed-up production of LCA

 

[Kharavela]

My only concerns here will be,our reputation will be hit badly if we do so. India will be seen as un-predictable country for buisness by outsiders which will impact other areas.
Outright cancelling the order should be avoided.insteaded they should go for some 20-30 flights order directly from france. Atleast this will avoid french doing huge outcry.

No offence, but is reputation more important than National Interest ?

BTW France or any other country for that matter, compelled to do business with India eyeing future defence contracts or purchases.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

Some modification in tejas can even alter it into a good ground attack jet .this will enhance production of LCA in an efficient manner.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tejas need no modification, As i told before the days of dedicated task Aircraft are gone ..

Tejas are multi-role fighter and used for multi-task operation just like SU-30MKI, Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen so does Mirage 2000 ..

 

[sgarg]

HAL has already invested close to 1500 crore and info is its own production line will be idle after just two or three years if more orders are not given for tejas mk1.

It should be the first problem tackled with urgency. because if HAL couldn't get non stop order for its own tejas production line then relation ship between ADA and HAL in the upcoming AMCA project will be be problematic as well. Because HAL will know that AMCA order too will be routed to private lines once it does the hard work of doing developmental engineering.

rather than asking private sector to set up a new production line, govt should re organize HAL into five entities with,

1. helicopter production entity,
2. Sukhoi and FGFA production entity,
3.tejas production entity
4. trainer production entity,
5. transport and civil air craft production entity.

The reorganization does not solve the problem of quality and quantity. The work culture of re-organized entity will still remain the same of the parent company.

Everybody is doing hard work. Why do you attribute hard work to HAL only. Every single person in the country should work hard. Do you imply that private companies don't work hard.

It is nation's money that has gone into LCA Tejas project. There is no "HAL's money". It is a national project and the company that can build the plane in quantity with quality should build it. It is very important to set up a complete ecosystem for aviation projects.

There will be no AMCA if proper technological infrastructure is not set up. World class fighters won't get built in thin air.

While we recognize the contribution of HAL, we must not argue for HAL as it is a sub-optimal vendor for production of LCA Tejas.

We have to face much bigger challenges like building engines in large quantities. HAL is not up to this task.