How to fight terror against India?

[KS]

Let me add a question - prior to independence, independence was the unifying factor for all Indians to come together as one, what is the unifying factor now that may join us together and that we may strive to achieve as one nation? If only we can answer to this question, and with which the majority of Indians agree can we think of a relatively better, powerful India.

Pride in a common civilization and increasing identity as Indians -- atleast among the majority of the people.

 

[Vyom]

When you asked this question, Do you really live in India?

Very much breathing India, I understand what goes under the skin of Indians in general.

1.
Because People are helpless, System favor those who can shut up others and shout better logic or not dont count, Police is more against people then criminals, Court is for show no real justice..

I am sure the martians do not constitute the system or police. They are all in and out Indian. What prompts a kiranawala to deceit in weighing the right amount or a traffic policeman to charge money frightening you with chalan? I am sure that is not nationalism, and neither is the case when people in charge of protecting our borders are not discharging their duties (viz. navy in the case of 26/11).

2.
How your question is related to the topic ?, You are straight forward taking Political mess not the common ground MAN..
Did you missed the fact that the terrorist who was unarmed people beat him to death ?, Kasab is work out karate and enjoying electricity 24x7 is it fault of common man ?

My questions are very much pertinent. I am looking at root causes, you are thinking of procedural deficiencies.

Do you have a clue about the Indian system or just this forum is your reference card ?

Oh please.

 

[Oracle]

Another thread goes down the drain! Kudos people.

 

[Vyom]

So, take shelter under "topic of the thread" when you have no answers.

I, unlike you, am not here to score brownie points for the heck of it. Did I dispute your argument that India has not made progress? But your outlook of progress is selective, mine is in totality.

You made a claim that India is "worse off" than in the 90s. I provided enough points to show that you were bullshitting. I have not heard such a ridiculous claim in my life. So first you make a nonsensical claim which is apparently not part of the "course of the discussion", and then when you can't back up your claim, you talk about staying "on course".

I stand by it. I was never talking of the materialistic progress India has made. My concern is more basic in nature, which perhaps is not something you can comprehend.

In terms of security, stability, economy, future outlook - India is doing better today. I am not sure why you find it so hard to accept this widely accepted fact. It seems to show that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

No I know India is only better superficially. Like a ugly woman, who would think that doing all artificial make-up has changed her from within as well.

LOL, the only reason we don't do very well here is because of bad processes and systems. It has nothing to do with some imaginary "lack of national identity". Your great Western nations whose "national identities" you want to ape have had terror attacks too - why, is it because the terrorists found their "national identity" to be lacking in some way, got pissed off and decided to blow themselves up there?

Whoever said I want India to ape western nations? But when it comes to putting systems in place, we can certainly learn from them. I want India to regain its lost identity.

Anyway, enough beating around the bush - even rage asked this question in the previous page: what exactly are you advocating? Enough of abstractions and sketchy ideas. What is your idea? In brief.

With the kind of replies you have posted, I do not think you are capable and tolerant of listening to differing views. You have lost that right. First learn to respect the views of other's, however ridiculous it may seem to you.

 

[Oracle]

Like I said we should take POK with the very real consequence of having to face a nuclear attack.

What would we do with PoK? Right now it is filled with terrorists and terrorist camps, 42 to be precise. You want to accommodate those Jihadis into India by initiating a nuclear war? Not at all a sane option. Let Pakistan rot, the way it has been for the last couple of decades. PoK would break off, just as much as Balochistan, and join India eventually. Remember, the Americans did not fire a single shot and U.S.S.R disintegrated. The Ruskis just did not have good economists.

There are no upsides to a nuclear war, but if there was one it would be a denuclearized Pakistan.

This is an unnecessary rick and war mongering. Why should India ignite it in the first case? Status quo is maintained along the LoC, and for heaven's sake is it not a better option to just wait for Pakistan's doomsday, than to unnecessarily go to war? Our growth has slowed down, FIIs are pulling out. Right now, we should be more concerned on our economy that a basket case like Pakistan.

No country in the world would object.

No country in the world would come to aid even if doomsday arrives. It would affect you too!

 

[Ray]

Doomsday arrives on us.

 

[Bangalorean]

No I know India is only better superficially. Like a ugly woman, who would think that doing all artificial make-up has changed her from within as well.

And I asked you to tell me how, which you never did. Anyway, like you said, it is "off topic".

Whoever said I want India to ape western nations? But when it comes to putting systems in place, we can certainly learn from them. I want India to regain its lost identity.

You need to explain two things. Firstly what does putting systems in place have to do with your so-called "identity"? Yes, there are things we can learn from the West, but maintaining and living in a "multicultural society" is not one of them. They can take a few lessons from us on that.

The second thing you need to explain is, how is your constant refrain of "identity, identity" related to the topic. You need to explain this all the more because you're the one who said that we shouldn't "drift away from the subject".

With the kind of replies you have posted, I do not think you are capable and tolerant of listening to differing views. You have lost that right. First learn to respect the views of other's, however ridiculous it may seem to you.

I can respect others views if views are posted in the first place. I have asked 10 times on this thread and I ask you yet again, what exactly is your point? What is the "identity" you are looking for? No abstract theoretical stuff please - tangible and quantifiable stuff. And how is it related to terrorism and the prevention of terrorism?

You cannot keep repeating cliches and non-substantive abstract stuff and expect people to "respect", "tolerate", etc. - people will ask you: what exactly do you mean? If you have an answer, provide one. Otherwise, the impression one gets is that you are here just to troll without anything substantial to offer in terms of argument or debate.

 

[Vyom]

You need to explain two things. Firstly what does putting systems in place have to do with your so-called "identity"? Yes, there are things we can learn from the West, but maintaining and living in a "multicultural society" is not one of them. They can take a few lessons from us on that.

Now that you have asked with civility, I may respond. If you take a look at a couple of pages back, you may see that you jumped in with your inferences of my posts that were not valid in the first place. I was only pointing to certain things in my observation, it would have been appropriate if only you, without taking a confrontationist position, would have asked me something specific that you wanted an elaboration on.

Now the problem is you are twisting everything with your incorrect comprehensions. Like this question that you have posed. It was in response to you specific reply I have quoted before answering you, if you can read that. Nothing to do with "identity" of course.

The second thing you need to explain is, how is your constant refrain of "identity, identity" related to the topic. You need to explain this all the more because you're the one who said that we shouldn't "drift away from the subject".

I am not refraining you to speak with or without identity, you were changing the course of discussion upon which I was trying to focus, when what you were saying was completely unrelated to what I was trying to convey.

I can respect others views if views are posted in the first place. I have asked 10 times on this thread and I ask you yet again, what exactly is your point? What is the "identity" you are looking for? No abstract theoretical stuff please - tangible and quantifiable stuff. And how is it related to terrorism and the prevention of terrorism?

Your thoughts are not tangible, yet that is the basis of all the actions your fingers are performing here. My point is and was about how Indians are not really united about their vision of India and most in the first place have no proper vision of India. The identity of India that I am looking for is an identity based on core values that have passed onto us since generations. We are gradually losing all that and in that we are aping the west or trying very hard. The general lifestyle tells it all.

How is it related to terrorism? It is not only related to terrorism, it is related to everything against which laws stand. Why are laws formed? Laws are formed, apart from other reasons but mainly because people in general try to do things they are not supposed to do on their own or are supposed to do on their own and they don't. For example, discharging their duties properly. Is it or is not a widely accepted fact that there was prior intelligence of 26/11 and yet because someone or a few in the system did not discharge their duties properly so many Indians were killed, and rest who are responsible for the system only shared crocodile tears.

You are right now gung-ho about India because, in all probability, you or your near ones have not faced a situation wherein you might have suffered a major loss due to your own countrymen. This is not my idea of India, and when that is the case, I cannot claim that India is much better now or even if it is then the comparison should be with what it ideally should have been.

There are stringent laws in India and US both, why is it then that in the US people discharge their duties well, and not here? The difference is the underlying moral strength of the society, which with all my conviction I can say, is stronger than here. The laws means nothing until those who are responsible to execute them are not of character, and hence neither does the system.

 

[Vyom]

Pride in a common civilization and increasing identity as Indians -- atleast among the majority of the people.

Unfortunately, that is not the case. Ask the farmers committing suicide, are they proud of India? And if they are not, how can we be?

 

[Bangalorean]

My point is and was about how Indians are not really united about their vision of India and most in the first place have no proper vision of India. The identity of India that I am looking for is an identity based on core values that have passed onto us since generations. We are gradually losing all that and in that we are aping the west or trying very hard. The general lifestyle tells it all.


How is it related to terrorism? It is not only related to terrorism, it is related to everything against which laws stand. Why are laws formed? Laws are formed, apart from other reasons but mainly because people in general try to do things they are not supposed to do on their own or are supposed to do on their own and they don't. For example, discharging their duties properly. Is it or is not a widely accepted fact that there was prior intelligence of 26/11 and yet because someone or a few in the system did not discharge their duties properly so many Indians were killed, and rest who are responsible for the system only shared crocodile tears.

Those things in India that do not work well, are because of bad systems and processes in place. It has absolutely nothing to do with "ancient core values being lost". BTW, aren't you contradicting yourself when you say on the one hand, that we need to learn how to set up processes from the West, and on the other hand, bemoan "Western values" for everything wrong with the nation?!!

We had severe problems and corruption in railway reservations in the 80s. People used to bribe their way to the "front" of the waiting list. These problems were eliminated due to computerization, and not due to some "ancient core values". Our national highways were single lane dual-carriageway roads for decades, and in bad repair most of the time. That changed due to excellent initiative and administration, not to mention, good growth (which infused money into the system). We had only the ambassador and premier padmini for decades. That changed with good economic policies and good economic growth. Not due to regaining some "ancient core values".

And you haven't really answered the question. Again, you mention something about "ancient core values passed down the generations, but I do not see how we can tangibly improve what does not work, with the assistance of those core values". And really, what are these "ancient core values" that we have lost"??. To fix the issue of corruption, we need more IT-enabled systems, more technology, harsh penalties and harsh enforcement. We need FDI in manufacturing to generate employment, we need centralized databases to track income tax evaders and we need a massive irrigation and interlinking program to solve issues of poor crop yields. These are tangible, realistic steps that the nation needs to take to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps. All this talk of "ancient core values" really doesn't do anything to solve problems on the ground.

You are right now gung-ho about India because, in all probability, you or your near ones have not faced a situation wherein you might have suffered a major loss due to your own countrymen. This is not my idea of India, and when that is the case, I cannot claim that India is much better now or even if it is then the comparison should be with what it ideally should have been.

You don't know what you are talking about when you speak of my suffering losses (or not). As an example, a site that I had purchased has been encroached upon (along with others), and the case is in court, since it is a "civil property dispute". So, what now? According to your logic I should proclaim that I am not proud of India and that things are "getting worse", simply because I have "faced a situation wherein I have suffered a major loss due to my own countrymen" (in your own words). Never mind the fact that I am living a much better life than my father or grandfather were at my age. Never mind the fact that all my friends and relatives live much better lives than their preceding generations. We should not be proud of India, we should all beat our chests and bemoan the fact that India is becoming worse day by day, just because we have all "faced some situation or the other wherein we have suffered a major loss due to our own countrymen".

There are stringent laws in India and US both, why is it then that in the US people discharge their duties well, and not here? The difference is the underlying moral strength of the society, which with all my conviction I can say, is stronger than here. The laws means nothing until those who are responsible to execute them are not of character, and hence neither does the system.

Why indeed? Again, contradictory. Tell me this - these useless Indians who go to the USA and begin to completely "ape" Western values and let go of their "ancient core values" more than ever before, somehow do very well in the USA. "Moral strength" of Indians somehow becomes much much greater in that alien land!!

The US had lots of problems of its own in the 19th century, and in the years preceding (and immediately following) WW2. Please read up about the mining towns in the US and the problems there, Al-capone and the brutal bootlegging mafia there, the way law enforcement officers used to eat out of gangsters' hands and were on their payroll, about the plight of dock workers in the US during those years, about black ghettos, drug addiction and narcotics mafia....

The USA took decades to reach where it is today, and it was a painful process. They made gradual improvements to their society in increments - bit by bit, they built their society brick by brick. That is why the USA is what it is, not because the USA has some magical "ancient core values" of their own which automatically make their people and society inherently better than ours, which is what your posts imply.

And anyway, what are these "ancient core values" that our nation should grab hold of, due to which we will become a land of milk and honey and get rid of all our issues? Enlighten me.

 

[spikey360]

Hey Bangalorean, you like to bicker with other people and veer off topic at will, blame so called 'processes' the fixing of which you can do with your magic wand fdi and other cute 'processes'. The truth is you've no idea about your own identity which is as regionalised and limited as your username itself. The truth is even if a sledgehammer were to hit you in the face, you'll probably go on nagging about the face not being made of steel but not try to stop or dodge the hammer anyway. Face it, you're here to only score brownie points and not discuss anything 'tangible' at all.

 

[Bangalorean]

"ancient core values"

"Ancient core values passed down through generations", to be precise.

Screw enforcement, police reform, judicial reform, river interlinking, FDI in manufacturing, computerization and technology - just look for "Ancient core values passed down through generations". That'll fix us.

 

[Param]

Hey Bangalorean, why don't you just say that you are a feminine idiot who likes to bicker with other people and veer off topic at will, blame so called 'processes' the fixing of which you can do with your magic wand fdi and other cute 'processes'. The truth is you've no idea about your own identity which is as regionalised and limited as your username itself. The truth is even if a sledgehammer were to hit you in the face, you'll probably go on nagging about the face not being made of steel but not try to stop or dodge the hammer anyway. Face it, you're here to only score brownie points and not discuss anything 'tangible' at all.

OK Mr. "national" Indian.

 

[Bangalorean]

Hey Bangalorean, why don't you just say that you are a feminine idiot who likes to bicker with other people and veer off topic at will, blame so called 'processes' the fixing of which you can do with your magic wand fdi and other cute 'processes'. The truth is you've no idea about your own identity which is as regionalised and limited as your username itself. The truth is even if a sledgehammer were to hit you in the face, you'll probably go on nagging about the face not being made of steel but not try to stop or dodge the hammer anyway. Face it, you're here to only score brownie points and not discuss anything 'tangible' at all.

You've just described yourself well. You and your pals with your single point agenda of "Muslim appeasement is ruining India" . No tangible suggestions, no real focus on solving problems some bullshit about "stop Muslim appeasement, and we will be fine".

 

[Bangalorean]

OK Mr. "national" Indian.

Actually, it is these buggers who have no idea of their identity. That is why they go hunting for some "identity" all the time. They are the mirror image of Pakis. We know who we are, we don't need to force and identity on ourselves, unlike these Indian Pakis. And they blame others for the fault that lies in them!

 

[spikey360]

Moron, you've just described yourself well. You and your pals with your single point agenda of "Muslim appeasement is ruining India" . No tangible suggestions, no real focus on solving problems some bullshit about "stop Muslim appeasement, and we will be fine".

That is correct. If you stop muslim appeasement, the will to fight terrorism, the real topic at hand, will be strengthened. Be fearless, do it. If it doesn't work, fine, appease those mullahs to your heart's content. But do try it.

 

[KS]

I dont understand what you guys are discussing and how its useful in combating terrorism.

BTW I heard on news that some members of the Islamic community, egged on by digvijay singh, have said that they will allow Rahul baba to visit their constituency only if he accepted Batla house encounter was fake and ordered an investigation into it.

Good luck fighting terror with such politicians and people.

 

[spikey360]

Actually, it is these buggers who have no idea of their identity. That is why they go hunting for some "identity" all the time. They are the mirror image of Pakis. We know who we are, we don't need to force and identity on ourselves, unlike these Indian Pakis. And they blame others for the fault that lies in them!

This is the exact heterogeneity I was talking about in the first place. Q.E.D.

 

[Bangalorean]

That is correct. If you stop muslim appeasement, the will to fight terrorism, the real topic at hand, will be strengthened. Be fearless, do it. If it doesn't work, fine, appease those mullahs to your heart's content. But do try it.

Who here claimed that one should "appease Muslims"? Did I? Just in your besieged mind. Vyom made a point that "ancient core values" will help in fighting terrorism, which I don't agree with. I don't even know what he is talking about. You evidently do not have the intelligence to understand what's being discussed.

I dont understand what you guys are discussing and how its useful in combating terrorism.

I don't either - waiting for Vyom's reply on what "ancient core values" will help in fighting Jihadi terrorists.

 

[spikey360]

I dont understand what you guys are discussing and how its useful in combating terrorism.

To treat a disease you first detect its symptoms, find out its cause. Then root it out thus preventing the disease altogether. We are merely discussing one of the root causes my friend.