How to fight terror against India?

Bangalorean

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Prosperous and powerful - our definitions will wary. And I don't think, that is the desire that normally drives Indians. The desires are personal ambitions. If that were not the case, we would not have to face such humongous loss of work ethics and even basic ethical issues.
As far as unity is concerned. There is a reason that a Bengali chaiwala and an IT guy in Bangalore cheer for the same Indian cricket team. There is a reason that a Hyderabadi hotel owner and an industrialist in Kochi and a banker in Lukhnow are all equally outraged and go hopping mad when Ajmal Kasab and co. come to faraway Mumbai and shoot dead hundreds of civilians. There is a reason that the entire Indian middle class across the nation gets outraged when racist attacks happen on students in Australia.

You do concede that things are far better now than they ever were before (refer my post on India in the 90s)?
 

agentperry

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man do what he thinks his society will reward him for doing. if terrorists are emanating from our very own land then there is rotting of society. society can only be changed from some rigid and powerful steps which are way stronger than words written in law book and constitution.

bad thing is that for future gains or even with the apprehension of having any gain in future leadership in India appease the main culprit. be it political case or economic fraud or a terror act.
 

Vyom

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You do concede that things are far better now than they ever were before (refer my post on India in the 90s)?
On the contrary, things are worse now. Now I am talking about the progress that India has made (although by all means we have lost so much precious natural resource pitted against that progress that only the coming generations will be able to quantify). I am talking about the way India is now, and the direction into which (or should I say the directionless) strides that India is making towards a goal either vague or uncollected. We are played into politics by the politicians are unable to give definite voice to the rampant crime and corruption.

And the direction to which we are progressing, is and is going to most severely affect our psychology as individuals and as society. Take for instance the education system, it has lost its basic purpose of character building.

But contrary to what you said in earlier posts, I am not predicting dooms day for India, I am merely saying that we will continue to be like this for a very long time to come. Progress that we make will also cost us dearly, it is as of now, will even out everything. I am merely saying we will lose our identity, that we were anyway unable to collect in the first place.
 
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Bangalorean

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On the contrary, things are worse now. Now I am talking about the progress that India has made (although by all means we have lost so much precious natural resource pitted against that progress that only the coming generations will be able to quantify). I am talking about the way India is now, and the direction into which (or should I say the directionless) strides that India is making towards a goal either vague or uncollected. We are played into politics by the politicians are unable to give definite voice to the rampant crime and corruption.

But contrary to what you said in earlier posts, I am not predicting dooms day for India, I am merely saying that we will continue to be like this for a very long time to come. Progress that we make will also cost us dearly, it is as of now, will even out everything. I am merely saying we will lose our identity, that we are anyway unable to collect in the first place.
First, let us keep the environment discussion separate. A sacrifice in terms of environment is unavoidable unless you want the nation to remain stagnant. The USA, Europe, Australia, Japan - they built their dams, built electricity plants, steel plants, heavy industry - they did all that when they had to. This phase is unavoidable. Anyhow, let us leave this discussion separate.

You need to tell me how things are worse. Not abstract stuff about "lack of a goal" or something, but tangible measurable stuff. I gave a list of problems our nation was facing in the 1990s. It is plain knowledge that all those problems are behind us today. Let me enumerate them again:

Khalistan problem, severe violence and brutality in Kashmir, extremely powerful ULFA, almost entire N-E under the shadow of insurgent groups, goonda raj in Bihar and some other states, pathetic and gloomy economy, severe communal strife (Babri Masjid, Bombay riots and many more), severe caste violence (Ranbir sena, Dalit sena, and many more), rise of criminal underworld (Dawood and co.) like never before, rise of naxalism in Telangana and other parts of central India - the list goes on.

I fail to see how we are "worse off" today than in the gloomy 90s. Every issue that I have mentioned above is either disappeared or vastly improved. So how are things "worse off" in tangible terms?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Your experience may not be untrue, but then again a single person can only scratch the surface of Indian mindset.

Concerning terrorism, this makes us soft from inside. We can be divided and bleed ourselves from inside.
That shows you have no idea about the mindset of People Of India, I have been stayed in each state for 3-4 years sharing my everyday life with them..

Everyone have its concerns and more or less same, Its not so serious as you sound here..



As for terrorism, Go to some Pind or Village or Gawo tell them your story and see the reaction..

Their is no fear it just what Media make it look like..
 

Vyom

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First, let us keep the environment discussion separate. A sacrifice in terms of environment is unavoidable unless you want the nation to remain stagnant. The USA, Europe, Australia, Japan - they built their dams, built electricity plants, steel plants, heavy industry - they did all that when they had to. This phase is unavoidable. Anyhow, let us leave this discussion separate.
I am not willing to sacrifice the environment for anything. That is not progress by any means. The real progress will be when we can also protect the environment.

There is tolerable limit, and we have far crossed that limit. Certain extent of damage to ecology is irreversible, if you are aware of that.

You need to tell me how things are worse. Not abstract stuff about "lack of a goal" or something, but tangible measurable stuff. I gave a list of problems our nation was facing in the 1990s. It is plain knowledge that all those problems are behind us today. Let me enumerate them again:

Khalistan problem, severe violence and brutality in Kashmir, extremely powerful ULFA, almost entire N-E under the shadow of insurgent groups, goonda raj in Bihar and some other states, pathetic and gloomy economy, severe communal strife (Babri Masjid, Bombay riots and many more), severe caste violence (Ranbir sena, Dalit sena, and many more), rise of criminal underworld (Dawood and co.) like never before, rise of naxalism in Telangana and other parts of central India - the list goes on.

I fail to see how we are "worse off" today than in the gloomy 90s. Every issue that I have mentioned above is either disappeared or vastly improved. So how are things "worse off" in tangible terms?
Why are you trying to change the course of the discussion? We were talking about the idea of India that we have or have not. We were talking about regionalism and personal ambitions (due to difference in ideology) becoming larger than nationalism day by day, is that not the case?
 

Vyom

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That shows you have no idea about the mindset of People Of India, I have been stayed in each state for 3-4 years sharing my everyday life with them..

Everyone have its concerns and more or less same, Its not so serious as you sound here..



As for terrorism, Go to some Pind or Village or Gawo tell them your story and see the reaction..

Their is no fear it just what Media make it look like..
My experiences tell me otherwise, although I am not discarding yours, but the facts can speak more than both of our experiences. If Indians really cared for India would there be such rampant corruption and crime?

Is it a coincidence that terrorists sneak into our metropolis and kill 100s of people. And is it a coincidence that not a single person as ever been pronounced guilty of the number of blasts that have happened in our cities in the last one decade or so?
 

arya

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how can a man fight while he is weak from inside how can we fight while every one is just counting his cast or religion numbers

very few peoples think them self as an Indian. we think punjabi, marthi, bangali,etc

how can we fight with the other while we are not strong from inside
 

Kunal Biswas

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1.Indians really cared for India would there be such rampant corruption and crime?

2.Is it a coincidence that terrorists sneak into our metropolis and kill 100s of people. And is it a coincidence that not a single person as ever been pronounced guilty of the number of blasts that have happened in our cities in the last one decade or so?

When you asked this question, Do you really live in India?

1.
Because People are helpless, System favor those who can shut up others and shout better logic or not dont count, Police is more against people then criminals, Court is for show no real justice..

2.
How your question is related to the topic ?, You are straight forward taking Political mess not the common ground MAN..
Did you missed the fact that the terrorist who was unarmed people beat him to death ?, Kasab is work out karate and enjoying electricity 24x7 is it fault of common man ?


Do you have a clue about the Indian system or just this forum is your reference card ?
 

Bangalorean

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Why are you trying to change the course of the discussion? We were talking about the idea of India that we have or have not. We were talking about regionalism and personal ambitions (due to difference in ideology) becoming larger than nationalism day by day, is that not the case?
So, take shelter under "topic of the thread" when you have no answers. :pound:

You made a claim that India is "worse off" than in the 90s. I provided enough points to show that you were bullshitting. I have not heard such a ridiculous claim in my life. So first you make a nonsensical claim which is apparently not part of the "course of the discussion", and then when you can't back up your claim, you talk about staying "on course".

In terms of security, stability, economy, future outlook - India is doing better today. I am not sure why you find it so hard to accept this widely accepted fact. It seems to show that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Is it a coincidence that terrorists sneak into our metropolis and kill 100s of people. And is it a coincidence that not a single person as ever been pronounced guilty of the number of blasts that have happened in our cities in the last one decade or so?
LOL, the only reason we don't do very well here is because of bad processes and systems. It has nothing to do with some imaginary "lack of national identity". Your great Western nations whose "national identities" you want to ape have had terror attacks too - why, is it because the terrorists found their "national identity" to be lacking in some way, got pissed off and decided to blow themselves up there? :pound:

Anyway, enough beating around the bush - even rage asked this question in the previous page: what exactly are you advocating? Enough of abstractions and sketchy ideas. What is your idea? In brief.
 
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spikey360

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First, let us keep the environment discussion separate. A sacrifice in terms of environment is unavoidable unless you want the nation to remain stagnant. The USA, Europe, Australia, Japan - they built their dams, built electricity plants, steel plants, heavy industry - they did all that when they had to. This phase is unavoidable. Anyhow, let us leave this discussion separate.

You need to tell me how things are worse. Not abstract stuff about "lack of a goal" or something, but tangible measurable stuff. I gave a list of problems our nation was facing in the 1990s. It is plain knowledge that all those problems are behind us today. Let me enumerate them again:

Khalistan problem, severe violence and brutality in Kashmir, extremely powerful ULFA, almost entire N-E under the shadow of insurgent groups, goonda raj in Bihar and some other states, pathetic and gloomy economy, severe communal strife (Babri Masjid, Bombay riots and many more), severe caste violence (Ranbir sena, Dalit sena, and many more), rise of criminal underworld (Dawood and co.) like never before, rise of naxalism in Telangana and other parts of central India - the list goes on.

I fail to see how we are "worse off" today than in the gloomy 90s. Every issue that I have mentioned above is either disappeared or vastly improved. So how are things "worse off" in tangible terms?
I am afraid all that you see are the surface of the problems which have merely been covered with more problems. But since you want to get into the nitty-gritty, lets do it.
Khalistan problem- re-emerging, two terrorists arrested recently, it never really stopped, just went underground
Severe violence and brutality in Kashmir- Are you among those who support lifting of AFSPA?
Shadow of insurgent groups in N-E - Brother, I think you have not heard about the recently lifted Manipur blockade, or about the blasts in Assam which occur with frightening regularity
Goonda raj in Bihar and some other states- Agreed, Nitish Kumar has partially solved the problem
Communal strife- Just a time bomb waiting to go off, do you think Babri is behind us? Do you think Hindu groups will forgive the muslims for some foreigner building a mosque on the sanctum sanctorum of Hindu god, Ram? Furthermore with appeasement politics of Congress and other regional parties, communal strife is bound to happen sooner or later. 9% quota for a certain religion?! Oh come on! Don't tell me this is an India you envison Bangalorean!
Rise of Criminal Underworld- Yeah, it was the placenta in which the bastard child of terrorism has been bred. IM, HuJi, LeT, all operating through sleeper cells in India the infrastructures of which this underworld has built. Do you dare disagree?
Naxalism- I don't know if you live in India or somewhere else, but the last time I checked, the naxals still controlled nearly 40% of India by land.
Telengana - frankly, you never fail to amaze me with your lack of knowledge. It is still a burning issue. Seriously, were you completely unaware of the Hyderabad bandh and the crippling of activities in AP, your neighbouring state for weeks?
 

Kunal Biswas

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I am afraid all that you see are the surface of the problems which have merely been covered with more problems. But since you want to get into the nitty-gritty, lets do it.
Khalistan problem- re-emerging, two terrorists arrested recently, it never really stopped, just went underground
Severe violence and brutality in Kashmir- Are you among those who support lifting of AFSPA?
Shadow of insurgent groups in N-E - Brother, I think you have not heard about the recently lifted Manipur blockade, or about the blasts in Assam which occur with frightening regularity
Goonda raj in Bihar and some other states- Agreed, Nitish Kumar has partially solved the problem
Communal strife- Just a time bomb waiting to go off, do you think Babri is behind us? Do you think Hindu groups will forgive the muslims for some foreigner building a mosque on the sanctum sanctorum of Hindu god, Ram? Furthermore with appeasement politics of Congress and other regional parties, communal strife is bound to happen sooner or later. 9% quota for a certain religion?! Oh come on! Don't tell me this is an India you envison Bangalorean!
Rise of Criminal Underworld- Yeah, it was the placenta in which the bastard child of terrorism has been bred. IM, HuJi, LeT, all operating through sleeper cells in India the infrastructures of which this underworld has built. Do you dare disagree?
Naxalism- I don't know if you live in India or somewhere else, but the last time I checked, the naxals still controlled nearly 40% of India by land.
Telengana - frankly, you never fail to amaze me with your lack of knowledge. It is still a burning issue. Seriously, were you completely unaware of the Hyderabad bandh and the crippling of activities in AP, your neighbouring state for weeks?

 

spikey360

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Fortunately, I am not the one living in the paradise where every truth is considered an exaggeration.

Do tell us, which and where are the facts that have been exaggerated. Would be interestingto know, and of course a great lesson to learn as well, if that is the truth in any case.
 

Bangalorean

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Telengana - frankly, you never fail to amaze me with your lack of knowledge. It is still a burning issue. Seriously, were you completely unaware of the Hyderabad bandh and the crippling of activities in AP, your neighbouring state for weeks?
You're potty. :crazy: Read what the other person writes before pounding on the keyboard.

I was referring to Naxalism in Telangana which was a severe issue in the 90s. It was curtailed by the "greyhounds". Don't teach me current affairs.

All the other stuff you speak of - don't argue just for the sake of it. Is Khalistan a burning issue that it was in the 90s? Is Kashmir burning like it was in the 90s? I know all about Manipur blockade - overall in the N-E, are things better than the 90s or not?

Before asking others if they "dare" disagree, understand that the criminal underworld is not at the levels it was in the 90s. 90s was the heyday of Dawood and co.

The naxals don't "control " 40% of India by land. All districts where Naxals have a presence are included in that 40%. I certainly live in India and I have somewhat more knowledge of the ground realities than a scaremongering chest beater who gets his knowledge from the English media and picks up sensational and false headlines like this one.

Don't defend the indefensible. There is nothing to indicate that things have not got better. All this scaremongering and self-flagellation has to go. Enough of this psycho-babble of "India is about to break apart, things are worse than ever before". :frusty:
 

Kunal Biswas

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Fortunately, I am not the one living in the paradise where every truth is considered an exaggeration.
My dear, Truth is just your excuse, you want time pass, Go out mix with real people..

Till then you love Exaggerating things for talk, No offence meant, Have a gud day, Sir..




Unsubscribe Now..
 

Bangalorean

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Anyway, I want to hear from the people who are getting so agitated about "national identity", what exactly is your idea? No beating around the bush, no bullshitting. Tell me coherently and practically - what do you have in mind? And how will your idea have an effect on terrorism? Straight answer please.
 

Rage

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On the topic, I like the suggestion that one terror attack= one Pakistani General must come into force. As I understand it, the problem for us in the Pakistani scenario is military-political. It is the political aspect of the top military hierarchy in Pakistan, that causes them to use terror groups in India. It is a typical dominance-through-subversive-and asymmetric-warfare strategy. To drive home the point that terrorism is unacceptable, the consequences have to be direct. Of course, this is easier said than done. And would require strengthening of the intelligence apparatus in Pakistan. Which brings its own considerations, consequences and complications.

Another strategy I would like to suggest, and this is again an offensive one, is to foment multiple and vicious- but not antipodal - anti-state organizations to confuse the enemy, just as they have done with us and to continuously weaken their federal system. This would require the creation of 'false crises', as in American parlance, to create scenarios where suspicion- and anxiety- prevail contra-dynamcally, within the system: as with the 'Red-Scare' the CIA used to foment takeovers and instability in countries such as Indonesia during the Cold War. In the case of Pakistan, at the two opposite poles, these would be the threat of Islamic/militant incursion for the military elite; and a Fascist, pro-American societal-cultural rampage by the military for the Islamists. The plus-point is that the sentiment has already existed. The minus side is that this dynamic, brought about by the sentiment and stabilized, albeit in the military's favor, in the Musharaf era ended with the convergence of US interests with Pakistan's in the Afghanistan war.

Now, because in Pakistan, the military has controlled these organizations before and because information is too perfect for our scenario, this would necessitate the creation of multiple, independent and quasi-potent organizations, to sow the seeds of discord and confusion in the minds of the military elite and to erode the military information campaign. That is at the one end of the groundwork of this strategy. On the other hand, because there is a sense that the military are themselves anti-American, it would require the consolidation of focus and (some) power into one man, that is both ambitious and virulently anti-Islamist, and at the same time administratively incompetent. So that he comes to represent the military elite, and by extension the military. This is the other end of the 'weakening federalism' tactic referred to earlier. His opponents should principally be the militants, but should also include the politicians. This has two 'resource denial' implications: domestically and politically, the institution is concerned with management issues of bureaucratic elite; domestically and militarily, the institution is concerned with curtailing the diffuse and widespread insurgency. The 'administratively incompetent' argument also ensures that decisions taken do not bring the dynamic to a 'final end' or do not envisage the terminal and favorable resolution of 'false crises' arbitrarily. This is a difficult and expensive solution. But one that is not entirely impossible. Military officials are inherently ambitious, administratively incompetent or conservative. The key is to find the right man, with the right combination of all three. It also has the potential of keeping the enemy in long-term, political and economic, stagnant turmoil. It would of course require a massive bloating of the intelligence budget. It would require the buying up of newspapers, officials, funneling channels and materials. But it is also a strategy that is calibrat-able, by reducing or increasing inputs at either or both ends of the spectrum: the military locus or any one or the other militant organizations. We should also understand what makes Pakistanis tick: personality politics. At the other end, should exist a father figure that acts as a pinion, a catalyst for the Islamist movement, but in whom power is not vested or consolidated. He is just a vocal representative, elusive and charismatic, and untouchable because of the pull he generates from the social outcomes that would follow his arrest.

What we should realize in the context of India and Pakistan is that our interests are inherently mutually-exclusive. What Pakistan has been doing so far and is doing, is to use a strategy of assymetric warfare in the pursuit of what are somewhat parallel interests: water, Afghanistan, land in Kashmir, and geopolitical advantage, influence and dominance over South Asia, Central Asian land, trade and energy routes and the securitization of living space. And therefore, this strategy has to be and effective one, which would explain the emotional argument to the 'right of self determination' of the Kashmiris. This scenario will continue as long as the two nations persist. As, ironically, also will the imbalance. And therefore, the solution is one that recognizes the situation for what it is: imbalanced, and pursues a 'resource denial' strategy as an exploitation of that inherent imbalance. The most effective 'optimum-solution' is one that lasts long-term and can be calibrated from both ends of the spectrum.
 

spikey360

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Anyway, I want to hear from the people who are getting so agitated about "national identity", what exactly is your idea? No beating around the bush, no bullshitting. Tell me coherently and practically - what do you have in mind? And how will your idea have an effect on terrorism? Straight answer please.
1 stop appeasement politics (read muslim appeasement)
2 make english/hindi/whatever compulsory to learn as a second language

these two steps should be more than enough to plant the seeds of unity, imho.
 

Bangalorean

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1 stop appeasement politics (read muslim appeasement)
2 make english/hindi/whatever compulsory to learn as a second language

these two steps should be more than enough to plant the seeds of unity, imho.
Well, the "English/Hindi/whatever" is precisely the thing that one can never get a consensus on. Sure it will be great to have a single language to communicate across the nation, but then I do not see a way apart from status quo. There is another thread here about "link language for India - suggestions" where this was discussed. No consensus could be found even in DFI!!

Also, what exactly are you referring to when you speak of Muslim appeasement? Is it uniform civil code, taking away the concept of "minority institutes", or something more than this?
 

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