How to counter Fifth Generation Stealth fighters?

p2prada

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I hate to admit, but the frontal RCS of the PAKFA will not match that of Raptor, if there is no drastic change in final design. The engine air intales are not even DSI, and I'm seriously hoping that they do something about it. Then there is also the problem of the canopy, which till now has not been optimised for stealth. Actually, the Russians have yet to demonstrate this on any AC.
We neither need DSI or serpentine intakes. What we need are blockers. It is funny how the F-22 uses blockers in the engines and nobody has any problems calling it stealthy, but when PAKFA is expected to use blockers, it automatically becomes unstealthy.

Canopy is optimized for stealth. Do you have an official or even an unofficial source saying the same? There is nothing wrong with the canopy.

There is another misconception that the canopy needs to be made of glass. The F-35 is a Lockheed Martin product, and like other LM products the aircraft comes with an all glass canopy. The same with the F-22. However if you look at pictures of YF-23 and X-32, which were Boeing products, come with nice solid frames. At least the YF-23 is said to be more stealthy than the YF-22, maybe the frame did not add to RCS, perhaps it actually helps lower RCS in some ways. Apart from giving the canopy greater dexterity against shrapnel/bird impacts.

The Russians have demonstrated serpentine intakes on Su-47, for obvious reasons of performance they did not go for it. Even the Mig 1.42 has serpentine intakes. Serpentine intakes = less supersonic performance.

DSI has nothing to do with stealth. Period.

But one thing I'm fairly certain of is that the RCS of PAKFA will be much lower than the touted figure of 0.5m2, which again is really based on speculation and videos, and not on solid statistics.
The 0.5m2 figure came from an official source, perhaps he was nailed for it later. But what we do know is that this figure is the average RCS which is over 20m2 for a regular Flanker. So a reduction of average RCS from 20m2 on an old generation platform to 0.5 m2 on the next generation platform is a pretty big figure. Perhaps F-35 may have an even larger average RCS figure than PAKFA. But F-22, for sure, has a lower average RCS figure.

There is a lot of talk of the Russians taking a different approach to 5th gen AC, both in terms of stealth characteristics and flight characteristics compromise.
Different design principles. You will see some exercised on other stealth aircraft too. Event the F-35 has different design principles compared to the F-22.

They have shown that manuevrebility is still a top priority for them, to the point of willing to sacrifice some other characteristics,which implies that they are confident that they can sneak within WVR ranges of another 5th gen AC, because that is when this will be most necessary.
We don't know what characteristics were sacrificed. Meaning we in the civvie world don't know, may be the experts in rival companies can make educated guesses on what was sacrificed.
 

DivineHeretic

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We neither need DSI or serpentine intakes. What we need are blockers. It is funny how the F-22 uses blockers in the engines and nobody has any problems calling it stealthy, but when PAKFA is expected to use blockers, it automatically becomes unstealthy.

Canopy is optimized for stealth. Do you have an official or even an unofficial source saying the same? There is nothing wrong with the canopy.

There is another misconception that the canopy needs to be made of glass. The F-35 is a Lockheed Martin product, and like other LM products the aircraft comes with an all glass canopy. The same with the F-22. However if you look at pictures of YF-23 and X-32, which were Boeing products, come with nice solid frames. At least the YF-23 is said to be more stealthy than the YF-22, maybe the frame did not add to RCS, perhaps it actually helps lower RCS in some ways. Apart from giving the canopy greater dexterity against shrapnel/bird impacts.

The Russians have demonstrated serpentine intakes on Su-47, for obvious reasons of performance they did not go for it. Even the Mig 1.42 has serpentine intakes. Serpentine intakes = less supersonic performance.

DSI has nothing to do with stealth. Period.



The 0.5m2 figure came from an official source, perhaps he was nailed for it later. But what we do know is that this figure is the average RCS which is over 20m2 for a regular Flanker. So a reduction of average RCS from 20m2 on an old generation platform to 0.5 m2 on the next generation platform is a pretty big figure. Perhaps F-35 may have an even larger average RCS figure than PAKFA. But F-22, for sure, has a lower average RCS figure.



Different design principles. You will see some exercised on other stealth aircraft too. Event the F-35 has different design principles compared to the F-22.



We don't know what characteristics were sacrificed. Meaning we in the civvie world don't know, may be the experts in rival companies can make educated guesses on what was sacrificed.
The radar blocker have stil not been fixed, the engine blades are still directly visible.





As far as the canopy is concerned, I was not talking about the frame. My comment was directed at the canopy itself. As of now, the canopy is transparent and has no reflective coating, allowing the radar waves to enter the cockpit.

It is well known that the canopy cannot be radar transparent as it would allow radar waves to reflect off the internal cockpit equipment - which will then produce multiple returns including corner reflections and scatter.

I hope this problem is sorted soon.

The exhaust noozle has not been optimised for stealth to the max extent as in the F22. This was done to ease maintainance while improving thrust and manuevribility.
The Raptor exhaust has reduced the thrust by approx 15%, and created enough headache in maintainance crews.
That itself says a lot of where the Russian priority lies.
 
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asianobserve

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We neither need DSI or serpentine intakes. What we need are blockers. It is funny how the F-22 uses blockers in the engines and nobody has any problems calling it stealthy, but when PAKFA is expected to use blockers, it automatically becomes unstealthy.
F-22 radar blockers are in the engine deep in the S-duct. Hence, you cannot see it from this angle, not even the engine:



PAKFA inlets picture. I guess the Russians still have to install radar blockers in PAKFA's engines? Note how most of the engine blades are visible.





Compare PAKFA's inlet with Super Hornet. The latter has less visible blades:

 
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asianobserve

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An old article on this topic:

Stealth Engine Advances Revealed in JSF Designs
DAVID A. FULGHUM/ORLANDO, FLA. and WASHINGTON
Aviation Week & Space Technology 03/19/2001

Airframers and engine makers improve classified low-observable propulsion technology for Joint Strike Fighter

The Joint Strike Fighter program still has secrets to give up. The edgy atmosphere of the sharpening competition is helping uncover some striking differences in the methods contractors have used to manipulate stealth technologies--in particular to eliminate radar reflections from air inlets and engines.

Once it became obvious that the competition would drag on at least another six months (until the new fiscal year), designers increasingly worried that details of their competition-sensitive technology would leak out. Their worries appear well founded. Aviation Week & Space Technology has uncovered considerable data about signature, sensor packages, weapons and weapons-bay designs and, now, innovations to engines and inlets.

Knowledge of JSF improvements also provides insight into the broader evolution of cheaper, reliable, low-maintenance stealth and critical low-observability improvements in other programs such as the Air Force's F-22 Raptor and Navy's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

When Boeing revealed its full-scale JSF mockup at England's Farnborough air show last summer, most observers were shocked to see what appeared to be the engine face placed a few feet behind the opening of the air intake. One of the basic rules of stealth design is that you find a way to keep radar beams from striking the rotating parts of an engine. Engine faces traditionally produce large, sometimes amplified, and distinct radar reflections that can be analyzed to identify the engine and aircraft.

In a clever use of technology (a technique considered a proprietary secret by the two companies), Boeing and Pratt & Whitney worked together to add stealth to the inlet guide vanes to mask the fan blades behind them. The inlet vanes are variable and open to provide maximum air to the engine in vertical flight, but close to minimize radar reflections during flight at operational altitudes.

Techniques to hide engines from radar have evolved in the last 25 years. Engineers placed a grill at the front of the Lockheed F-117 inlet to keep radar waves out and bounce them away from the source (above).
By contrast, Lockheed Martin and McDonnell Douglas (before the latter company was eliminated from the competition) relied more on serpentine air ducts leading to the engine to avoid such reflections. The ducts coil horizontally and vertically to avoid a line-of-sight path for radar. Once into the ducts, most radar beams are directed onto surfaces made of, or coated with, radar absorbing materials (RAM). Radar specialists say that after a couple of bounces, there's virtually no radar energy left for a dangerous reflection.

The JSF competition is a good primer for how technology and tactics can be employed to keep radar from reflecting out of engine, exhaust and weapons bay cavities. The front of Boeing's JSF engine, for example, is only a few feet inside the air intake. To avoid radar reflections, the engine face has been hidden by special inlet guide vanes that have been treated with RAM and shaped to cause radar beams to make multiple bounces--including onto the air-duct walls. There, radio-frequency energy is trapped by RAM or bounced from interior surfaces, each time being greatly attenuated. One way or another, the radar energy becomes too weak to constitute a dangerous reflection.

"Radar blockers" or "stealth intake devices"have been developed for Boeing's F/A-18E/F and F-22 and are even being improved on the former aircraft. The difference is that the blocker is a separate device on Super Hornet, while it is an integral part of the engine, at least in the Boeing version of the JSF. The F-22 and Super Hornet use a combination of curved inlets and radar blocker technologies.

The first-generation SR-71 used huge inlet spikes to control radar reflections. The second-generation F-117 uses a more primitive grid device over the inlet as a radar blocker. A finer mesh screen was used on Northrop's Have Blue proposal, which would have choked air flow and limited top speed to about Mach 0.65. (AW&ST Feb. 10, 1992, p. 23). These earlier designs were abandoned in response to the demand for supersonic strike aircraft and cheaper, more robust stealth. Keeping radar beams out of the engine is a particular concern for aircraft with a single, large engine inlet.

More recently, McDonnell Douglas added fan-shaped blocker vanes in the inlet of the F/A-18E/F. In the latest implementation, the blocker is an integral part of the Boeing X-32 engine design.

The F-117's inlet screens, when aligned with the rest of the aircraft's external faceting, help create uniformly conducting electrical surfaces that allow radar waves to flow around the stealth aircraft and exit from its aft-most point. Some stealth specialists worry that these signals, emitted to the rear of the aircraft, could provide the basis for a counter-stealth defense system.

The Boeing JSF's intake radar blocker is built as part of the face of the engine with a bullet-like centerpiece surrounded by angled, radiating vanes. In parallel, the U.S. has developed infrared and radar suppression devices for jet exhausts and these have been flying on stealth aircraft for a number of years. These two types of blockers are generally used in conjunction with one another and the latter has become increasingly sophisticated as researchers find better ways to deal with an environment of extreme exhaust heat.

"We've been using blockers in aircraft exhausts for many years," said a senior aerospace official. "It doesn't significantly affect the engine's airflow [which translates to power] through the exhaust, but [when used in an inlet, a blocker] has the potential to restrict airflow into the engine."

Some stealth specialists say the loss in engine efficiency when using a blocker would be limited to only a few percent, and may be offset by the greater efficiency of a single large engine inlet (Boeing's option) compared to two smaller inlets (Lockheed Martin's design). Others say the effects of a blocker inside an inlet are more pernicious.

"It's physically easier and more robust to build a long, serpentine duct and hide the [engine face], compared to the difficulties of putting in a [blocker] device," said a second stealth specialist with insight into the JSF program. "You've added something else that scatters [radar energy]. You also have to account for the demand on power and subsystems. For example, you have to deice the [blocker] element.

"[Total engine efficiency] depends on the design of the device, the duct, the lips and how the pressure recovery and bleed systems are operating," the second specialist said. "It's fair to say there will be a performance loss when there isn't a nice, shallow, smooth duct. Finally, having something out there that can be hit by a bird or runway debris is not good [for maintaining the stealth signature]."

Lockheed Martin's JSF design has room for the long, spiraling duct because the engine is located well aft in the aircraft. A shaft transfers power from the engine to a lift fan located just behind the cockpit to permit short takeoff and vertical landings (STOVL).

However, Boeing's JSF demonstrator is designed for direct thrust from the engine to provide its STOVL capability. The engineering demands of the system required the engine to be much farther forward in the fuselage, allowing only enough room to hide the upper half of the engine face. Instead, Boeing is using a radar blocker built into the engine's face. The Super Hornet design differs in that it combines slightly curved inlets with a blocking device ahead of and separate from the engine face.

ADVOCATES OF THE BOEING design say new technology makes the short inlet a better bet. "The issue is purely one of how much distance is involved in dealing with the [radar] energy," said an aerospace industry official with long experience in the JSF competition. "While the longer inlets are generally easier to model [and build], they consume a lot of internal volume in the aircraft and often produce aerodynamic or maintenance challenges."

Stealth specialists agree that the choice of longer serpentine ducts versus larger radar blockers is a tradeoff between stealth, cost and aerodynamic performance. In smaller aircraft, the serpentine ducts tend to integrate better "than a big, fat single inlet," said a Northrop Grumman official. But when a larger aircraft is involved, it sometimes becomes more efficient to rely on a larger blocker, he said. There is also the issue of price.

"Anytime you have a [large, complex inlet] front frame, it's more expensive from the aspect of construction and integration costs," the official said. "I know the front frame of the F/A-18 represents a significant development cost. Certainly the inlets on Pegasus [a new unmanned combat air vehicle demonstrator] are one of the most challenging aspects of the aircraft's integration."

It is known that the radar-blocking devices have helped reduce the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's radar cross section (RCS) to an unprecedented low for non-stealthy aircraft--around 0 dBsm., the equivalent of about a 3-ft.-dia. aluminum ball. That is far smaller than other aircraft that did not start out as stealth designs. By comparison, a human has an RCS of about -10 dBsm.; the JSF, designed from the start for low observability, is to have a stealth signature of -30 dBsm. (about the reflection from a golf ball); and the B-2/F-22 are pegged at -40 dBsm. (about the size of a marble).

Other low-observability initiatives also involve stealth blockers at the rear of the engine to redirect and absorb radar signals that make it into the exhaust cavity from behind the aircraft. Earlier efforts included putting cylindrical radar blockers in the path of the exhaust or creating dog-leg exhaust to avoid the cost of developing and integrating expensive radar blocking devices.

THE F-117, F-22, B-2 and now-canceled DarkStar unmanned aerial vehicles all employed a combination of radar and infrared suppressing technologies in their exhaust designs--including both reflecting and absorbing materials, a long-time Pentagon radar specialist said. In the past, a cylindrical blocking device was placed in the exhaust cavity, but scientists are looking at modifying engine exit cone supports or flow straighteners to duplicate the radar-dampening technology on the engine face. The problem with radar blockers in the exhaust is that they must either be cooled or, if allowed to heat up, they must not be visible from outside the aircraft. This is a problem that Lockheed Martin researchers say they have solved with the afterburning F-22.

Hiding hot elements is critical because newer anti-aircraft missile systems are relying more on infrared and optical sensors than radar to find their targets, according to Pentagon intelligence studies. Such sensor systems foil counter-defensive systems like anti-radiation missiles that home in on radar emissions. Optically guided anti-aircraft missiles may have been involved in the shooting down of an F-117 in Serbia during the 1999 Kosovo air campaign.

A hot, glowing mass of metal with direct line-of-sight to the outside of the aircraft would be an obvious target for such air defense weapons. Some stealth designs, such as the F-117, have a dogleg in the exhaust system that avoids the line-of-sight problem. But what the Pentagon wants are simple, inexpensive and rugged radar and infrared blockers that, along with RAM and reflective coatings, are easy to maintain in a very tough, hot-exhaust environment.

Yet another JSF stealth issue involves how long weapons bay doors are open. There are two options, according to Frank Statkus, Boeing vice president and program manager for JSF. Normally, it takes 1-3 sec. for the lower weapons bay door to open, extend a 5-in. spoiler to deflect the slipstream, fire an air-to-air missile [Amraam or AIM-9X] and close. An ejector punches the missile away from the aircraft to ensure a quick separation. That limits the time a radar receiver can detect a reflection from the open cavity.

For operations involving the use of air-to-ground weapons it takes 6-8 sec. Both doors open, a "swing arm" extends with the weapon and then it is launched. A tactic envisioned for the Boeing version of the aircraft--which has side-mounted weapons bays--is to shoot from the bay that is on the side opposite the enemy radar, thereby avoiding any momentary radar reflection when the bay is open. Weapons that must acquire a target before launch would require the doors to stay open longer and have line-of-sight to the target, but such weapons aren't initially planned for use from the JSF, Statkus said. Lockheed Martin offers weapons bays that open downward.

TECHNOLOGY THAT WAS USED to cut the radar reflectivity of Boeing F/A-18E/Fs--non-reflective pylons and RAM-coated weapons--also will be applied to "dirty" versions of the JSF that carry weapons externally.

With the distinct differences between the two JSF designs, Boeing and Lockheed Martin are offering the Pentagon a lot of clear-cut choices in STOVL systems, inlet designs, weapons bays positioning and sensor arrays, aerospace industry officials agree. It also may explain some of the Pentagon's predilection to keep the competition going far longer than anticipated."


http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8589.html
 

asianobserve

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Please disregard my post #83. I admit my mistake. I missed PAKFA's fan shaped blocker.
 

p2prada

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The radar blocker have stil not been fixed, the engine blades are still directly visible.
Yes, we are yet to see a blocker for the aircraft.

As far as the canopy is concerned, I was not talking about the frame. My comment was directed at the canopy itself. As of now, the canopy is transparent and has no reflective coating, allowing the radar waves to enter the cockpit.
That is not a big issue.

The exhaust noozle has not been optimised for stealth to the max extent as in the F22. This was done to ease maintainance while improving thrust and manuevribility.
The Raptor exhaust has reduced the thrust by approx 15%, and created enough headache in maintainance crews.
That itself says a lot of where the Russian priority lies.
The flat nozzle has nothing to do with RF stealth. It has a lot to do with supercruise.
 

p2prada

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F-22 radar blockers are in the engine deep in the S-duct. Hence, you cannot see it from this angle, not even the engine:
F-22 has no radar blocker in the inlet. It has it in the engine exhaust.

Compare PAKFA's inlet with Super Hornet. The latter has less visible blades:
Why only Super Hornet?

How about comparing to actual stealth fighters?

The X-32



YF-23 which was supposed to be more stealthy.



Very very visible, much more than PAKFA.

The flying PAKFA prototypes don't have a radar blocker installed, yet.

Supposedly, the current engines cannot handle a radar blocker. There are two engine programs going on now, an uprated version of the 117 to 165KN and the Item 30. So, later prototypes and production models carrying the new 117 may be equipped with radar blockers. There was this report where they said the upthrust 117 was very crucial for the PAKFA program, the radar blocker may be one of the crucial aspects.

An example of a radar blocker,


Lastly, we do not have any confirmation whether the engine ducts are made of lossy materials which we can guess that it actually does. Apart from this there are other ways too, like fixed vanes, which are not angled at 90 degrees like regular engine compressor vanes. Even splitter plates can be used. There is a chance the PAKFA may use a combination of splitter plates.
 

DivineHeretic

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Yes, we are yet to see a blocker for the aircraft.



That is not a big issue.



The flat nozzle has nothing to do with RF stealth. It has a lot to do with supercruise.
It is debatable as to how big an issue the reflective canopy is, but the USAF found it prudent to use it on many of its platforms, most notably the fifth gen AC. Speaks a lot of its advantages. Though of course NV is limited, by some accounts.

In a stealth AC, the attempt should be to minimise the RCS as much as possible, and a gold canopy does this without any negative impact on the flight performance. Therefore IMHO it should be very high on the agenda of Sukhoi design bureau.

And the flat noozle, or for that matter any nozzle has direct implications on the infrared signature of the engine, which is another stealth characteristic.
An exerpt

To reduce the hot engine emissions, or infrared signature, the engine exhaust is designed to mix efficiently with the surrounding cold air.
In the area of heat emissions, generally in the infrared part of the electromagnetic spectrum, the primary source is the engine exhaust.
Considerable research in this area has produced new generation of jet engine exhaust nozzles and heat-dissipating systems and techniques. Among them is mixing low-temperature ambient air with the exhaust gases almost at the instant of exit at the back of the engine. This causes a rapid decrease in exhaust gas temperature and a reduction in the size of the exhaust plume. This in turn reduces the aircraft's infrared or heat signature, reducing its chances of being tracked by such devices.-


Stealth Technology
 

p2prada

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It is debatable as to how big an issue the reflective canopy is, but the USAF found it prudent to use it on many of its platforms, most notably the fifth gen AC. Speaks a lot of its advantages. Though of course NV is limited, by some accounts.
This is not as big an issue as made out to be.

And the flat noozle, or for that matter any nozzle has direct implications on the infrared signature of the engine, which is another stealth characteristic.
Yes, that's why I said it has nothing to do with RF stealth. Flat nozzles have a larger surface area than round nozzles and hence greater dissipation of energy, hence smaller IR signature. This isn't the only way to reduce IR signature. Merely one of the many.

An exerpt

To reduce the hot engine emissions, or infrared signature, the engine exhaust is designed to mix efficiently with the surrounding cold air.
In the area of heat emissions, generally in the infrared part of the electromagnetic spectrum, the primary source is the engine exhaust.
Considerable research in this area has produced new generation of jet engine exhaust nozzles and heat-dissipating systems and techniques. Among them is mixing low-temperature ambient air with the exhaust gases almost at the instant of exit at the back of the engine. This causes a rapid decrease in exhaust gas temperature and a reduction in the size of the exhaust plume. This in turn reduces the aircraft's infrared or heat signature, reducing its chances of being tracked by such devices.-
This has nothing to do with flat nozzles. As a matter of fact, this is just one of the alternate ways (I mentioned above) as opposed to going for a flat nozzle.
 

ersakthivel

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I hate to admit, but the frontal RCS of the PAKFA will not match that of Raptor, if there is no drastic change in final design. The engine air intales are not even DSI, and I'm seriously hoping that they do something about it. Then there is also the problem of the canopy, which till now has not been optimised for stealth. Actually, the Russians have yet to demonstrate this on any AC.

But one thing I'm fairly certain of is that the RCS of PAKFA will be much lower than the touted figure of 0.5m2, which again is really based on speculation and videos, and not on solid statistics.

There is a lot of talk of the Russians taking a different approach to 5th gen AC, both in terms of stealth characteristics and flight characteristics compromise.

They have shown that manuevrebility is still a top priority for them, to the point of willing to sacrifice some other characteristics,which implies that they are confident that they can sneak within WVR ranges of another 5th gen AC, because that is when this will be most necessary.

Russians won't change their final design because if they wanted to hide the engine blades from the front during the design phase itself , they could have designed an air intake in such a way to meet the goal.It cannot be done now by either SUKHOI design team or HAL for the Indian FGFA version.

Even the LCA design hides the engine blades from the front unlike the other single engine fighters.Why? because during the design phase itself it was the intention.

F-22 and PAKFA are two different fighters built on two different design principles.

F-22 is an out and out new design whose prime intention is to produce a fighter with as low an RCS possible to defeat the X band targeting radars of their time(note --of their time that means in the 1990s when it was designed, not in the 2030s, and not VHF or L band radars)
But FGFA is a Russian attempt to evolve the already existing SUKHOI -30 air frame into a more stealthier version.That's all.

Why the Russians didn't follow the F-22's design intent. May be they knew in 2030 detection tech will evolve to defeat any possible stealth attempt , so they thought that they need not go to the extent of designing a completely new air frame philosophy like F-22, or they just needed to hit the market with a vastly RCS reduced version of flanker to raise money for designing a new design philosophy stealth fighter.

Which one is true is only known to the design team. Because the exposed engine blades from the front is a pathetic 5th gen design concept , you won't find in any other 5th gen plane. They are just using the radar blocker idea of the Super hornet design and hoping ASEA radars of tomorrow won't get through it, which is plain silly.SO FGFA is no way a stealth fighter in the class of F-22 or F-35 or AMCA design.

It is this realization that made the IAF to downsize the orders for FGFA and asking for a 100 percent VLO stealth compliant design for AMCA.
 
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Shirman

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@DivineHeretic PakFa is slated 2 have frameless Golden canopy by the end of 2013.....a la F-22
here's the link posted by @ Austin :- Для самолета пятого поколения сделали позолоченное стекло - Известия
Some passages translated in English :-"In Obninsk NPP "Technology", which produces composite components for the fifth-generation aircraft T-50, developed a unique coating that protects the glass cockpit from the radio waves, and solar radiation. Thanks to him, the signal from the radar, air defense systems is not reflected from the cockpit, and the devices installed inside, remain invisible to the electronic systems of intelligence of the enemy."
 
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average american

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The F-22's Northrop Grumman/Texas Instruments-built AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array of 2000 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a power output of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power. frequency and shape of the radar beam very rapidly, so it can acquire target data, and in the meantime minimizing the chance that the radar signal is detected or tracked.


Russian radar does not have this feature its called low probability of intercept. Many of the features of the PAK FA are are attempts by the Russians to give the appearance mimicking the abilitys of the F22 and F35 but they are mainly cosmetic in nature. There is much more to stealth then the shape of the plane, the Russians are pushing the obsolete idea of dog fighting to counter stealth, IRST to counter the fact the PAK FA radar is not only useless but a handicap against the more stealthy US planes Mainly the PAK FA is a cheap knockoff of the F35 like a fake Rolex Watch in order to sell India and other customers.
 

average american

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:: F-22 Raptor Stealthfighter ::

.0 Stealth features of the F/A-22
Taking a look at the F/A-22, quickly reveals the fundamental principles of a stealthy design as discussed earlier.


2.0 Continuous curves
The F/A-22 uses a combination of different ways to keep radar waves from bouncing back to their origin. The most sophisticated system is the use of so-called continuous curvature.

Many of of the surface shapes of the F/A-22 are curves with constantly changing radii. These scatter radar beams in all directions instead of back to the radar source. There are no right angles on the exterior of the design.

In order to calculate the curves and the effect they have on radar reflections form any point in 3D space, requires a tremendous computing power.

The first plane using this technology
extensively is the B-2 stealth bomber, also known as the flying wing.

Since computer- and software development has sky-rocketed over the past 20 years, prediction models can now be calculated quite precisely ,taking in account radar reflection versus the shape of the plane, while supporting more naturally aerodynamic shapes.


3.0 Planform alignment
The second way to keep radar waves from returning to the sending antenna, the leading and trailing edges of the wing and tail have identical sweep angles (a design technique called planform alignment).

The fuselage and canopy have sloping sides. The vertical tails are canted. The engine face is deeply hidden by a serpentine inlet duct and weapons are carried internally.


4.0 Saw-toothed edges
The F/A-22 has a low height triangle appearance from the front. This physical cross sectional view ensures a small signature from the front and low observability touches such as paint and materials, as well as little "W" shapes where straight lines might have appeared, all tend to break up the signature by absorption or redirection.



The "W" shapes are found at numerous places on the stealth aircraft. For instance, in the forefront of the cockpit glass, there is a very apparent "W" shape. This reduces the radar energy reflected during a head-on pass to the radar emitter. The "W" shape is also found on landing gear doors, engine inlets and outlets, as well as other openings.


5.0 Engine nozzles
Reduction of radar cross section of nozzles is also very important, and is complicated by high material temperatures.

The approach taken at Lockheed is to use ceramic materials.

The ceramics may be either lightweight, parasitic sheets mounted on conventional nozzle
structures or heavier structural materials forming saw-toothed edges.


6.0 Cockpit
The pilot's head, complete with helmet, is a major source of radar return. This effect is amplified by the returns of internal bulkheads and frame members. The solution is to design the cockpit so that its external shape conforms to good low radar cross section design rules, and then plate the glass with a film similar to that used for temperature control in commercial buildings. Here, the requirements are more stringent: it should pass at least 85% of the visible energy and reflect essentially all of the radar energy. At the same time, one would prefer not to have noticeable instrument-panel reflection during night flying.


7.0 Antennas
On-board antennas and radar systems are a major potential source of high radar visibility for two reasons. One is that it is obviously difficult to hide something that is designed to transmit with very high efficiency, so the so-called in-band radar cross section is liable to be significant. The other is that even if this problem is solved satisfactorily, the energy emitted by these systems can normally be readily detected. The work being done to reduce these signatures is classified.


8.0 Paint scheme
In order to make the F/A-22 disappear for the human eye on the ground, when in flight, special camouflage schemes have been developed. This way the plane will blend with the background sky as much as possible viewed from the bottom and disappear in the ground texture when seen from above.




9.0 Conclusion
The result of all these as well as a number of un-disclosed or non mentioned measures is the F/A-22's BVR capability, meaning that it can detect, engage and kill an opponent fighter, while staying invisible itself.

The F-22 was designed to disguise its infrared emissions, reducing the threat of infrared homing ("heat seeking") surface-to-air or air-to-air missiles, including its flat thrust vectoring nozzles.[209] The aircraft was designed to be less visible to the naked eye; radio, heat and noise emissions are equally controlled

The F-22 also includes measures designed to minimize its detection by infrared, including special paint and active cooling of leading edges to deal with the heat buildup encountered during supercruise flight.[216]
 

Damian

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F-22's will receive first Visonix Scorpion HMCS (helmet-mounted cueing system) helmets this year, first tests will begin in summer.
 

DivineHeretic

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The F-22's Northrop Grumman/Texas Instruments-built AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array of 2000 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a power output of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power. frequency and shape of the radar beam very rapidly, so it can acquire target data, and in the meantime minimizing the chance that the radar signal is detected or tracked.


Russian radar does not have this feature its called low probability of intercept. Many of the features of the PAK FA are are attempts by the Russians to give the appearance mimicking the abilitys of the F22 and F35 but they are mainly cosmetic in nature. There is much more to stealth then the shape of the plane, the Russians are pushing the obsolete idea of dog fighting to counter stealth, IRST to counter the fact the PAK FA radar is not only useless but a handicap against the more stealthy US planes Mainly the PAK FA is a cheap knockoff of the F35 like a fake Rolex Watch in order to sell India and other customers.
What you wrote about the APG-77 is basic for all AESA, whether fixed on a F22 or a raptor or a gripen or even for a LCA. Nothing extraordinary in that.
The only differences lie in number and quality of modules and of course the cooling systems. And you cannot prove either is better in the F-22 than the PAK-FA, whose radar is btw still in development.

And please provide a valid proof stating that the radar for PAK-FA does not and will not have LPI. You could start by reading how LPI is achieved.

Your ranting about the IRST was absolutely the most hillarious comment I've heard all week. And about your deductions from it, well Sherlok Holmes would hang his head in shame infront of your skills.

By your logic, the SU-30, the Rafale, the Eurofighter, the Super Hornet all have crap radars, because they use IRST. Now how come did the whole world miss such intellect? Possibly no one ever was born who had your level of intellect.

Pray tell me, how is it possible that two stealth aircraft who cannot spot each on radar other until they are 40-60km apart avoid dog fights or mauevre engagements altogether in a battle. Do they decide to flee as soon as they spot the other? Or spray and pray?

Your arguements are based on presumption that the PAK-FA is extremely inferior to the Raptor, which I remind you is a very dangerous assesment to make. Especially when nothing much is certain about the PAK-FA.

And about fake rolex for Indians, well we like our Ajanta watches better.
 

average american

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According to Moores law computer power doubles every 18 month, it was predicted and has pretty well been established that maneuverabilty wont defend against the ground to air and air to air missiles that are even available today much less in the future. But stealth does, not to the extent it did in the past and will do so even less in the future but even so it makes the F22 and F35 able to survive in modern warfare where non stealthy planes are not. As of the present time only one stealthy plane has ever been shot down by either ground fire or air combat. This is the real world. Past history does not inspire a lot of confindance in Russia/India/HAL/Israel Frankstienen Planes.
 

Shirman

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Apologies if this has been posted earlier :- looks like another advance Passive radar on the block

Czech company ERA Pardubice (former Tesla Pardubice), producer of famous passive locators Ramona, Tamara and Věra, announced new passive locator Tichý strážce (Silent Guard). Ramona, Tamara and Věra are famous for capability to detect any flying objects including stealth aircraft. Those passive locators don´t emit any electromagnetic wave or impulses, just they detect electromagnetic impulse emitted by targets. And that´s the point, Tamara or Věra can detect any stealth aircraft only in one condition, the aircraft must emit some impulses (the radar must be switch on, pilot must communicate with radiostation, aircraft must use own guide or targeting systems etc. So legends about Tamara´s and Věra´s capability are little bit exaggerated.

But new locator Tichý strážce in fact brings the end of stealth technology and stealth supermodern aircrafts have real trouble. Tichý strážce in fact is same passive locator type like Věra, so it is not emit any electromagnetic waves or impulses, but even more it need not any impulses from flying targets to detect them. Tichý strážce just uses any normal public civil digital or analog radio and TV broadcasting for detection any flying objects including stealth planes and drones!!!!

And even more, if there are all broadcasting transmitters are switched off in the tracking area of the Tichý strážce, it can be add with own special but independent electromagnetic waves transmitters"¦ And it is really very very small. Stealth shape aircraft's era is ending... despite it has not started fully actually. Czech Army has tested Tichý strážce with VÄ›ra-NG together last month during military exercise and has serious interest to purchase that.

http://era.aero/datasheet_Silent Guard.pdf

Company's website :- http://www.era.cz/



 
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