How should India save its family values?

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Sakal Gharelu Ustad, Dec 3, 2015.

  1. Bangalorean

    Bangalorean Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    6,216
    Likes Received:
    6,576
    OK, I've been extremely busy for a couple of days, but here's my observation w.r.t. joint families.

    It would indeed be lovely if grandparents were to stay with a couple and help bring up the kids. It is good for @Mad Indian that his parents have agreed to this proposal.

    However, if there are multiple children, whom do the grandparents stay with? Let us say there are a couple of brothers. Both would of course want the grandparents to stay with them. How is this conflict going to be resolved?

    One possible way of course, is to have everyone stay in the same house. 2 grandparents + 4 parents + 4 kids = 10 people, maybe 12. In an urban area like Bangalore or Mumbai, getting a house large enough and comfortable enough to house 10 people (5 bedrooms?) is beyond the reach of most people, save the top 0.05%. A family of 4 (2 parents + 2 kids) can make do with a 60 lakh 2 BHK apartment, but a house for 10-12 people is pretty much impossible. To maintain the same standard of living as a couple + kids in 2 BHK would have in a similar location (close to workplace and shopping areas and hospitals etc.) will require around Rs. 8 crore based on prevailing real estate values.

    Let's look at the issue of property ownership next. In almost EVERY case I have seen around me (across castes, communities, regions, etc.), siblings end up becoming sworn enemies and fight bitterly over property post their parents' death, sometimes even before. A HUGE percentage of property cases in our Indian courts are among relatives, siblings, etc. This is such a contentious issue, and everyone wants some property to call their own. In the above-mentioned scenario of a large joint family of 10-12 living in one house, purchased with shared money, how is the property distribution going to be equitably managed? They will end up fighting like cats in most cases.

    Coming to the issue of ego and the issues of staying under one roof by today's generation. Actually, it is not just the "new generation" which has an issue, whom we always blame. Today's grandparents and senior generation is not the same as before. It is not just the daughter-in-law who has an issue with her mother-in-law. In an equal number of cases, it is also the mother-in-law who has an issue with staying with her daughter-in-law. The older generation of today values its independence very highly. They just don't want to work as "free maids" for their daughters-in-law (in the own words of several senior citizens).

    I am not sure if the classical joint family will work in today's nuclear urban society due to the above constraints. These constraints and issues did not exist in the agrarian rural economy, but that is fast changing, and will continue changing due to economic imperatives. Whether preservation of the joint family is desirable or not, I do not know. But whether it is possible or not is a different question, to which I think the answer is no.
     
    alphacentury and topgear like this.
  2. alphacentury

    alphacentury Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    2,049
  3. Kshatriya87

    Kshatriya87 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Messages:
    8,825
    Likes Received:
    9,093
    Location:
    Mumbai
    Joint families is the key. I was raised in one. Despite the change in my thought process (me going to atheism) I still touch my elders feet and seek their blessings. I still have the manners to respect the temple in my house for the sake of my parents. I sit in pujas with my parents just because they want me to. Believe me, this is hard for me being an atheist.

    These are values. And the best way to get them is make the people stay in joint families at least till they are 25. But just this won't suffice. This was only successful because I was raised in a family with religious and cultural values.

    So, as @Srinivas_K said, preach vedas, puranas to kids. Teach them how we do not disrespect elders. How we do not hit women or children etc.
     
  4. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,835
    Likes Received:
    7,736
    Location:
    Podigai Hills.
    Mutliple solutions are there- Joint families, grand parents stay limited time as and when needed with individual child of younger/older children to some point to raise them till the mother can both work and take care of the child, and finally after children have grown to a point, live with the eldest son(as is our custom) or daughter(slight modification based on circumstance). Remember , there are four grand parents for children

    This is not even a problem. If they stay apart, they will need three houses. If they stay together, they will need just two houses. In fact this will actually lower the costs. I don't know how you came with this bizarre conclusion that joint family will lead to increase in housing costs. Its not like the people searching for home can't buy two apartments side by side right?

    Same as above. Again, raising children with family values imbibed in schools and by grand parents reduce such occurrences by a lot.

    Why not? Its not like children to get work in the same metro. This thinking that family values can't be preserved in urbanisation is just projection from how west handled urbanisation. We don't have to ape west in everything- family included

    For instance we have decided that me and my bro will settle on a place together and work in a common hospital. The same is true for engineers who work in say, chennai. They can buy two houses/apartments together and live together and raise children together.


    The scope is there. the only thing missing is the will to do it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  5. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    7,717
    @Bangalorean is talking about how it looks like right now for some families. What @Mad Indian and I are talking is how things should be?

    I do not know how @Bangalorean jumped from a 2bhk flat for 60 lakhs to 8 crores for three 2bhk flats!! I know some families who buy adjacent flats to be close to each other. There are others who live in non-flat but residential colonies. In such places people just build 3 different floors depending on their number of children.

    Sibling rivalry is common but I don't think that a lot of them end up in courts. Most of the times, people resolve it among themselves and with the help of other family members. If there are 10 people living under a roof fights are natural but then there are ways to sort them out.
     
  6. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    7,717
    @DingDong - some food for thought: http://koenraadelst.blogspot.fr/2009/08/no-more-handshakes.html

    I India, I rarely shook hands, and that only with Westernized Indians. Hindus would fold their hands and say "Namaste" or more colloquially "Raam Raam", Muslims would touch their hand palm to their forehead and say "Aadaab Arz" or "Salaam". Chinese people with a sense of tradition put their right fist in their left palm in front of the chest and bow slightly.

    Touching someone is a mutual invasion of privacy with all the impurities you carry. Therefore, some cultures consider it a very intimate act not entered into loosely. While they didn't know about micro-organisms, they sensed correctly that such an invasion may have more than merely symbolic effects. Today, with the Swine Flu paranoia, health authorities advise the public to refrain from kissing and shaking hands except in situations of true and intentional intimacy. So, the coolies and fellahs were right all along. We ought to learn from them.
     
    DingDong and OneGrimPilgrim like this.
  7. asingh10

    asingh10 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2015
    Messages:
    1,785
    Likes Received:
    3,445
    Something interesting from Tripitaka

    This is an account recorded in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta where Lord Buddha was asked (obliquely) by the Brahmana Vassakara on behalf of Magadhan King Ajatashatru whether he had a chance at killing off an enemy nation (Vajjis). Lord Buddha replied with the seven "Conditions of a Nation's Welfare" (Satta Aparihaniya Dhamma) that were taught by him to the Vajjis which ensured their non decline so long as the citizens observed them. When the king Ajatashatru heard this, he abandoned the invasion plan for the time being. This story is the background to SR Goel's book "Saptasheel".


    Part One: In Magadha

    1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One [1] dwelt at Rajagaha, on the hill called Vultures' Peak. At that time the king of Magadha, Ajatasattu, son of the Videhi queen, [2] desired to wage war against the Vajjis. He spoke in this fashion: "These Vajjis, powerful and glorious as they are, I shall annihilate them, I shall make them perish, I shall utterly destroy them."

    2. And Ajatasattu, the king of Magadha, addressed his chief minister, the brahman Vassakara, saying: "Come, brahman, go to the Blessed One, pay homage in my name at his feet, wish him good health, strength, ease, vigour, and comfort, and speak thus: 'O Lord, Ajatasattu, the king of Magadha, desires to wage war against the Vajjis. He has spoken in this fashion: "These Vajjis, powerful and glorious as they are, I shall annihilate them, I shall make them perish, I shall utterly destroy them."' And whatever the Blessed One should answer you, keep it well in mind and inform me; for Tathagatas [3] do not speak falsely."

    3. "Very well, sire," said the brahman Vassakara in assent to Ajatasattu, king of Magadha. And he ordered a large number of magnificent carriages to be made ready, mounted one himself, and accompanied by the rest, drove out to Rajagaha towards Vultures' Peak. He went by carriage as far as the carriage could go, then dismounting, he approached the Blessed One on foot. After exchanging courteous greetings with the Blessed One, together with many pleasant words, he sat down at one side and addressed the Blessed One thus: "Venerable Gotama, Ajatasattu, the king of Magadha, pays homage at the feet of the Venerable Gotama and wishes him good health, strength, ease, vigour, and comfort. He desires to wage war against the Vajjis, and he has spoken in this fashion: 'These Vajjis, powerful and glorious as they are, I shall annihilate them, I shall make them perish, I shall utterly destroy them.'"

    Conditions of a Nation's Welfare.


    4. At that time the Venerable Ananda [4] was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him, and the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Ananda thus: "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis have frequent gatherings, and are their meetings well attended?"

    "I have heard, Lord, that this is so."

    "So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

    "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis assemble and disperse peacefully and attend to their affairs in concord?"


    "I have heard, Lord, that they do."

    "So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

    "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis neither enact new decrees nor abolish existing ones, but proceed in accordance with their ancient constitutions?"


    "I have heard, Lord, that they do."

    "So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

    "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis show respect, honor, esteem, and veneration towards their elders and think it worthwhile to listen to them?"


    "I have heard, Lord, that they do."

    "So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

    "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis refrain from abducting women and maidens of good families and from detaining them?"


    "I have heard, Lord, that they refrain from doing so."

    "So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

    "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis show respect, honor, esteem, and veneration towards their shrines, both those within the city and those outside it, and do not deprive them of the due offerings as given and made to them formerly?"


    "I have heard, Lord, that they do venerate their shrines, and that they do not deprive them of their offerings."

    "So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

    "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis duly protect and guard the arahats, so that those who have not come to the realm yet might do so, and those who have already come might live there in peace?"


    "I have heard, Lord, that they do."

    "So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline."

    5. And the Blessed One addressed the brahman Vassakara in these words: "Once, brahman, I dwelt at Vesali, at the Sarandada shrine, and there it was that I taught the Vajjis these seven conditions leading to (a nation's) welfare. [5] So long, brahman, as these endure among the Vajjis, and the Vajjis are known for it, their growth is to be expected, not their decline."

    Thereupon the brahman Vassakara spoke thus to the Blessed One: "If the Vajjis, Venerable Gotama, were endowed with only one or another of these conditions leading to welfare, their growth would have to be expected, not their decline. What then of all the seven? No harm, indeed, can be done to the Vajjis in battle by Magadha's king, Ajatasattu, except through treachery or discord. Well, then, Venerable Gotama, we will take our leave, for we have much to perform, much work to do."

    "Do as now seems fit to you, brahman." And the rahman Vassakara, the chief minister of Magadha, approving of the Blessed One's words and delighted by them, rose from his seat and departed.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html


    Summarizing the discourse and the 7 reasons for the success of Vajjian society :-

    1. They hold full and frequent public assemblies.

    2. They meet together in concord, rise in concord and carry out their undertakings in concord.

    3. They enact nothing not already established, abrogate nothing that has already been enacted, and act in accordance with the ancient institutions of the Vajjians as established in former days.

    4. They honour, revere and support the Vajjian elders and hold it a point of duty to listen to their words.

    5. They do not take away by force or abduct women or girls belonging to their clan and detain them i.e. they respect women.

    6. They honour, esteem, revere and support the Vajjian shrines, pilgrimages and festivals whether in town or country, and do not allow them to fall into disuse.

    7. They fully provide rightful protection, defence and support for the arahants (enlightened monks) among them, so that arahants from far away may enter the realm and therein live in peace.
     
  8. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,059
    Likes Received:
    587
    Vajji Sangha is basically kuru panchal no?
     
  9. asingh10

    asingh10 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2015
    Messages:
    1,785
    Likes Received:
    3,445
    It was confederacy of 8-9 clans from north bihar to madhesh (south nepal).
     
    punjab47 likes this.
  10. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,059
    Likes Received:
    587
    Well we're introducing new laws & trying to destroy every tradition in the Christian Republic of Indiastan.

    Mainly due to Marxist instead of Sikh values. I stopped using word Hindu because it's too polluted by Marxism in popular discourse now.

    Hindu right wingers want pratilom & open schools for muslim kids. :D

    Best way to save family values, is ksytria raaj. When it comes, it comes.
    Gov cannot orient itself away from individual liberalism
    http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/2015/10/14/the-moral-disarmament-of-the-white-race

    Best thing to do, is not let some South Indian chandals make North Indian chamars look bad. They lived properly for crores years, these people want to split us.

    Vindayas + Nanded Sahib & Bidar is real boundary I guess. Past that is enemies,


    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ।।
     

Share This Page