How come Indian women started wearing veils to cover their faces?

[Jatt.Hindustan]

I think this part is absolutely true. ISIS is the closest the muslims have come, in recent history, to emulating the ways of their prophet. I don't agree with your stance on secularism. Who wants to live in a Hindu shithole where cows are sacred and killing a cow lands you in prison? You want to live in a Hindu version of Saudi Arabia? By looking at it from a hindu-muslim angle, you're missing the point. It's simply not desirable to live in a non secular country. When you talk about hindus expressing their identity, what you really mean is hindu hard liners stepping on everyone else's toes and turning India into an ultra conservative hellhole, even more than it already is. What India needs is to adopt secularism in earnest and advance in the direction of full separation of state and church. No religious laws, period. That should be the end goal.

Ok, no. Whuch ksytrii will support you in this emdeavor? Because, withiut them you have no force to push this.

You would also want gora sahubs, and lots of muslims and christians converting oeoole right?

Hiw about same gotr marriage whuch my dasam pita banned.

Or same cousin even?

India is a reoublic, why not let every khap govern itself how it wants is that not more free and 'pluralistic'?

But that would expose, your agenda.

 

[sorcerer]

@maomao @alphacentury, @Banglorean, @Simple Guy @Jatt. Hindustan @Ray @tarunraju and yes how can I forget my dear friend @sorcerer. Veils covering faces in India have nothing to do with hallucinations like 'protection of women"( as if women would not be abducted then), 'islamic influence' or such. They have an ancient presence and existed before islam was born in Arabia.

Enuff sources?

WHo said the word "Protection" only refers to abduction.
Thats what happen when you try to generalize things beyond commonsense.

In some cases you refered it was a part of "dignity".
Her head veiled in "modesty"
"seen in public" was their greatest misfortune

So it can be assumed that veil as you rightfully tried to pitch was not an "ISLAMIC TRADITION". I understand that you have corrected yourself later in the same post.

Now the point in question is PROTECTION.

Protection has its own remarks when practiced. LIke I said... It was the PROTECTION of modesty in the cases you "enuff sourced".

 

[sorcerer]

I do not support veils . However, I hope that now Buddhism and Buddha, Ramayana, Kalidas and entire sanskrit literature becomes barbarous and like JNU ones tell us deserve to be burnt as per our friends who were cluelessly talking about islam and veils. OK not my concern. Even logic tells us that Islam is not responsible for this, as south Indian areas where muslims ruled and had much impact like in Telangaan and N Karnataka do not have this custom.

Hinduism is as bad( debatable) as islam when it comes to things like this.
@sorcerer

You said that I like catching fish in murky waters. I hope you know this short poem

'Machhali jal ki rani hai, Pani uska jivan hai' ( fish is queen of water and water is its life).

Now this is what I say

Lekin main wo raja hun jo machhali ko pani me dubo dubo kar mar dalta hai.

(I am a king who kills queen fish by drowning it in water itself).


I hope you enjoyed the sport.:thumb:

Not just in Hinduism or Islam but in Christianity too they used methods of concealment.
Christian woman practice "head covering".. that too a tradition long practiced and you can see the variations of it in Islam.
But..there is nothing like generalizations

Christian headcovering is the veiling of the head by women in a variety of Christian traditions. Some cover only in public worship, while others believe they should cover their heads all the time. The Biblical basis for headcoverings is found in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16.[1] Though head covering was practiced by most Christian women up until the 1960s,[2] it is now a minority practice among contemporary Christians in the West.

The fish analogy was to see if you were really trying hard to compare hinduism with Islam and prove your murky point... and to spot your loyalty.
And You caught the bait and got mind Effed.


Enjoy the spot!

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

This thread is anti national, as it tries to promote and spread negativity abiut a region.

We should be proud of every tradition, as they were appropriate in their timeplace.

Whoever steos into rajasthan to tear off veils will get cut up, it would be the same as taking a army into harimandir sahib.

Guru sahub has told us what is correct, when it is time the full Rajputana from Sindh to MP will change its own customs.

Vaheguru changed manusmriti did he not?

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

.ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ । । ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ । ।

 

[sorcerer]

This thread is anti national, as it tries to promote and spread negativity abiut a region.

We should be proud of every tradition, as they were appropriate in their timeplace.

Whoever steos into rajasthan to tear off veils will get cut up, it would be the same as taking a army into harimandir sahib.

Guru sahub has told us what is correct, when it is time the full Rajputana from Sindh to MP will change its own customs.

Vaheguru changed manusmriti did he not?

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

.ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ । । ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ । ।

Absoultely... The OP was trying hard to paint Hinduism in bad light and promote christianity.. He was batting for it..
Gave him a bait and he took it.


Now we know!

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

I do not support veils . However, I hope that now Buddhism and Buddha, Ramayana, Kalidas and entire sanskrit literature becomes barbarous and like JNU ones tell us deserve to be burnt as per our friends who were cluelessly talking about islam and veils. OK not my concern. Even logic tells us that Islam is not responsible for this, as south Indian areas where muslims ruled and had much impact like in Telangaan and N Karnataka do not have this custom.

Hinduism is as bad( debatable) as islam when it comes to things like this.
@sorcerer

You said that I like catching fish in murky waters. I hope you know this short poem

'Machhali jal ki rani hai, Pani uska jivan hai' ( fish is queen of water and water is its life).

Now this is what I say

Lekin main wo raja hun jo machhali ko pani me dubo dubo kar mar dalta hai.

(I am a king who kills queen fish by drowning it in water itself).


I hope you enjoyed the sport.:thumb:

Come, I am not a king but atleast a son of one I will drown you anywhere outside of India.

Teri bhen nu lun aa ke boothay te keh ke Ramayan jaloo ga.

Atleast you reveal your true intentions, dirty animal brothel having, sister ----ing melech.

Come try to burn even one letter of sanskrit.

 

[Vikramjeet]

This is why I am not concerned with Christianisation of India. We have already lost our dresses( I am talking about fashionable ones not veils or such), our languages which are prime part of mankind, our architecture and tasty foods. All this due to ghazis. On the other hand , most important component of civilization which many parts do have basically social and religious framework are too regressive. I mean rituals, temples and mores can be defended but what about prudishness much worse than in Islam. So we lost things which are practical and what we have now is just aspects of our civilization which are regressive and not suitable in 21st century.

In India, there is a new religion called 'Kamasutraism' followed by all and sundry. JNU leftists and Hindu RW never agree on anything but when it comes to this religion, all become its adherents. This religion has a sacred book called 'Kamasutra' and Prophet of this religion is author Vatsyayana. The followers of this religion do not even know what he says on some things. His views( which were product of his prudish society that is ancient india) are more than enough to make look Sree Ram Sena and VHP nice liberal guys.

Since i have done extensive research on history of India I have read almost all primary sources including this sacred book. Let me quote some important parts.

This is what Prophet Vatsyayana says about how wives should behave

"The wife should always avoid the company of female
beggars, female buddhist mendicants, unchaste and rougish
women, female fortune tellers and witches. As regards meals
she should always consider what her husband likes and dislikes,
and what things are good for him, and what are injurious
to him When she hears the sounds of his footsteps
coming home she should at once get up, and be ready to do
whatever he may command her, and either order her female
servant to wash his feet, or wash them herself."

Wow.



And how she should live


"She should avoid bad expressions, sulky
looks, speaking aside, standing in the doorway, and looking
at passers-by, conversing in pleasure groves, and remaining in
a lonely place for a long time;"

Liberal views?


And when husbands are away from homes

"During the absence of her husband on a journey the virtuous
woman should wear only her auspicious ornaments, and
observe the fasts in honor of the Gods.
To the abode of her relations she should not go
except on occasions of joy and sorrow, and then she should
go in her usual travelling dress, accompanied by her husband's
servants, and not remain there for a long time."

So she should not enjoy anything not even decent dress.


Finally when he returns

"She should receive him at first in her ordinary
clothes, so that he may know in what way she has lived
during his absence, and should bring to him some presents,
as also materials for the worship of the Deity."



The following lines tell us that society was as harsh as some conservative people and that is why Vatsyayana suggests this to someone who is trying to start an affair with presents.

"In the next place he should get her to meet him in some
place privately, and should then tell her that the reason of
his giving presents to her in secret was the fear that the
parents of both of them might be displeased,"

and how girls behaved those days

"Now a girl always shows her love by outward signs and
actions such as the following:—She never looks the man
in the face, and becomes abashed when she is looked at by
him; under some pretext or other she shows her limbs to
him; she looks secretly at him though he has gone away
from her side; hangs down her head when she is asked some
question by him, and answers in indistinct words and unfinished
sentences"


Victorian prudishness beaten by this.

This is how a man should proceed in embracing

"But if he is not well acquainted
with her, or if she is a young girl, he should then embrace
her in darkness."

so embracing in darkness is showing sexual repressive nature of society.

Finally,

"although the girl loves the man
ever so much, she should not offer herself, or make the first
overtures, for a girl who does this loses her dignity, and is
liable to be scorned and rejected""

So wives should not look at passers by, should wear poor clothes in absence of husbands, should not visit pleasure gardens in absence, should not talk with unchaste and roguish women. Men fear their parents so much that they give presents in private at secret place, are advised to embrace their lover in dark while girls should be shy when looked at and should hang their hands downwards. Finally, a girl who makes first overtures is liable to be rejected and scorned.

These are not words of Praveen Togadia but Prophet Vatsyayana of religion of 'Kamasutraism'.

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

You're not one of us, you don't belong in India. Stay in europe where for 20 euro you can have sex with goat chained to table.

 

[sorcerer]

The Veil in Christianity
Introduction

A common misconception is that Muslim women are the only ones who cover their hair. It may be true that Islam is the only religion in which most women follow its directives to cover the hair, but it is not the only religion to have such directives.

It is particularly interesting to look at the case of Christianity, since Christianity is the predominant religion in the West, and it is Westerners, including observant Christians, who are often the first to criticize Islam because of the hijab (modest dress, including headcovering).



Is Covering the Hair a Religious Commandment for Christian Women?

There can be only one answer to this: yes, it is! Simply open the Bible to the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 11. Read verses 3-10.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven. For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.

The meaning of this passage is plain enough. We can make the following syllogisms:

Syllogism 1

Praying with an uncovered head is a disgrace

Having a shaved head is the same as praying with an uncovered head

Therefore, having a shaved head is a disgrace

Syllogism 2

If it is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head, she should cover her head

It is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head - see syllogism 1

Therefore, a woman should cover her head

In other words, the passage means what it says. Have you ever wondered why Catholic nuns dress like they're wearing hijab (Muslim hijabi women, have you ever been mistaken for a nun? I have, more than once). Have you ever wondered why Mary the mother of Jesus (peace be upon them both) is always depicted in Christian art with her hair covered? Did you know that until the 1960s, it was obligatory for Catholic women to cover their heads in church (then they "modernized" the service)?'

The Veil in Christianity

 

[Vikramjeet]

Come, I am not a king but atleast a son of one I will drown you anywhere outside of India.

Teri bhen nu lun aa ke boothay te keh ke Ramayan jaloo ga.

Atleast you reveal your true intentions, dirty animal brothel having, sister ----ing melech.

Come try to burn even one letter of sanskrit.

Shout whatever,this is internet.

 

[sorcerer]

The Purpose Of The Women's Veil In The Quran and Bible

The command to wear the veil is found in both the Quran and Bible. However, the reason for the command is different when you compare the two books.

Lets see what the Quran says...

Surah 33:59

Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.



So the Quran says that women should wear the veil so that they can be recognized (as pious Muslim women) and then no one would bother flirting or annoying them. There are other reasons given in Hadith but I am just showing the Quran.



Lets compare this with the Bible...

1 Corinthians 11:3-12

3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

So we see that since the man is the glory of God and the woman is the glory of man then she has to wear the veil as a sign of authority. Her wearing the veil shows that she is subjected in authority to the man.

power authority, i.e. the sign of the husband's authority.

Source: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/ScofieldReferenceNotes/srn.cgi?book=1co&chapter=011



Also notice what verse 10 says, "and because of the angels". A woman has to wear the veil because of the angels. What does this mean? Some commentators don't know...



What this means, I do not yet understand.

Source: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=1co&chapter=011



Because of the angels. This clause has puzzled the critics. The idea probably is: "There should be no violation of decorum, such as a bareheaded woman in a public assembly would be, lest it offend the ministering angels which are always present, though unseen.

Source: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/PeoplesNewTestament/pnt.cgi?book=1co&chapter=011

Well...superstition is part of every sale pitch in religion
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/womens_veil.htm

 

[Vikramjeet]

The Veil in Christianity
Introduction

A common misconception is that Muslim women are the only ones who cover their hair. It may be true that Islam is the only religion in which most women follow its directives to cover the hair, but it is not the only religion to have such directives.

It is particularly interesting to look at the case of Christianity, since Christianity is the predominant religion in the West, and it is Westerners, including observant Christians, who are often the first to criticize Islam because of the hijab (modest dress, including headcovering).



Is Covering the Hair a Religious Commandment for Christian Women?

There can be only one answer to this: yes, it is! Simply open the Bible to the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 11. Read verses 3-10.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven. For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.

The meaning of this passage is plain enough. We can make the following syllogisms:

Syllogism 1

Praying with an uncovered head is a disgrace

Having a shaved head is the same as praying with an uncovered head

Therefore, having a shaved head is a disgrace

Syllogism 2

If it is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head, she should cover her head

It is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head - see syllogism 1

Therefore, a woman should cover her head

In other words, the passage means what it says. Have you ever wondered why Catholic nuns dress like they're wearing hijab (Muslim hijabi women, have you ever been mistaken for a nun? I have, more than once). Have you ever wondered why Mary the mother of Jesus (peace be upon them both) is always depicted in Christian art with her hair covered? Did you know that until the 1960s, it was obligatory for Catholic women to cover their heads in church (then they "modernized" the service)?'

The Veil in Christianity

So what? I merely proved that Hinduism is as 'regressive' as Islam. Ofcourse, if Ramayana, Buddhism and such do not matter and a westernised neo atheism is Hinduism then certainly hinduism is very liberal.

BTW, you really think that a Muslim would know so much about Ramayana, Bhagvat Purana than you Hindus( as you all seem to be clueless about Hindu texts, some guys says Rukmini was from AP, some would say something else)?

 

[sorcerer]

A Study of the Veil in the Christian Tradition - Part 1
2.1 The veil text

The Scriptural text, which I shall refer to as "the Veil Text," upon which the whole Christian theology of the veil is based, is surprisingly lengthy considering the treatment which other subjects receive in its context. It reads:

"Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man.

"Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God.

You yourselves judge: doth it become a woman, to pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you, that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the church of God." (1)

1. Corinthians 11:1–16. Taken from the Douay-Rheims, Challoner edition (Rockford, IL: TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., 1971). Unless otherwise noted, all further English scriptural quotations will be from this source.

A Study of the Veil in the Christian Tradition by Donald Goodman
==

The essence is such practices were common in all religions at one specific time.. THe rules differed...the engagments differ.

 

[tarunraju]

You want to live in a Hindu version of Saudi Arabia?

No, I want a Hindi/native Indian languages-speaking Thailand. Icanhaz?

 

[sorcerer]

So what? I merely proved that Hinduism is as 'regressive' as Islam. Ofcourse, if Ramayana, Buddhism and such do not matter and a westernised neo atheism is Hinduism then certainly hinduism is very liberal.

BTW, you really think that a Muslim would know so much about Ramayana, Bhagvat Purana than you Hindus( as you all seem to be clueless about Hindu texts, some guys says Rukmini was from AP, some would say something else)?

Not just hinduism..if you take christianity too..its regressive
WHat about the mass healing practiced by them...

When you are sick you go to a doctor..

My point is..all religions have certain gray areas..not just Hinduism or Islam. Christianity too is not advanced when you look at it from the archaic vantage point..

What you are tying to prove here is quoting the examples from ancient text that hinduism is regresive. Where you conviniently forgot the fact that religions have evolved..

Hinduism has evolved and so is Christianity.. Islam with its fanatical practices by some elements are making it look more prehistoric.

YOu didnt prove a thing..
you proved that.. you badly want to show hinduism in bad light quoting examples from ancient texts and civilizations. where at that time certain norms were practiced..seemed right..
We have come a loooong way from it.

But

In christainity ..what you are batting for..also practiced fanatical traditions like burning at stake like a steak. Do chrstians practice it now?

cuz religion evolved..

 

[Vikramjeet]

The Purpose Of The Women's Veil In The Quran and Bible

The command to wear the veil is found in both the Quran and Bible. However, the reason for the command is different when you compare the two books.

Lets see what the Quran says...

Surah 33:59

Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.



So the Quran says that women should wear the veil so that they can be recognized (as pious Muslim women) and then no one would bother flirting or annoying them. There are other reasons given in Hadith but I am just showing the Quran.



Lets compare this with the Bible...

1 Corinthians 11:3-12

3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

So we see that since the man is the glory of God and the woman is the glory of man then she has to wear the veil as a sign of authority. Her wearing the veil shows that she is subjected in authority to the man.

power authority, i.e. the sign of the husband's authority.

Source: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/ScofieldReferenceNotes/srn.cgi?book=1co&chapter=011



Also notice what verse 10 says, "and because of the angels". A woman has to wear the veil because of the angels. What does this mean? Some commentators don't know...



What this means, I do not yet understand.

Source: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=1co&chapter=011



Because of the angels. This clause has puzzled the critics. The idea probably is: "There should be no violation of decorum, such as a bareheaded woman in a public assembly would be, lest it offend the ministering angels which are always present, though unseen.

Source: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/PeoplesNewTestament/pnt.cgi?book=1co&chapter=011

Well...superstition is part of every sale pitch in religion
The Purpose Of  The Women's Veil In The Quran and Bible.

Whatever, point is that veils in India were so important that wife of Buddha was criticised by society and Ram had to induce others to allow Sita coming on without veils.

I am no Christian or Muslim at all, anyway I am enjoying you guys now, you hear some unpleasant things and start calling others ( who is even more devout Hindu) as Muslim or Christian. I have already said that Muhammad conduct is followed by ISIL and that Jesus was a junk. Which Christian or Muslim would say this?

 

[sorcerer]

Whatever, point is that veils in India were so important that wife of Buddha was criticised by society and Ram had to induce others to allow Sita coming on without veils.

I am no Christian or Muslim at all, anyway I am enjoying you guys now, you hear some unpleasant things and start calling others ( who is even more devout Hindu) as Muslim or Christian. I have already said that Muhammad conduct is followed by ISIL and that Jesus was a junk. Which Christian or Muslim would say this?

At each era...a kind of practice..
you cant look at it through the lens of today and show it in bad light.


What is practiced today will be questioned by the future generation..Dont tell me NO!

Its easy to generalize..

 

[Vikramjeet]

Is it not funny that a man who is being called Muslim or Christian is only talking with references from Hindu texts like Ramayana, Lalitvistara and even secular ones like Kamasutra while all 'Hindus' are just replying by abusing him with no idea about their own texts?

Delusions are hard to die but anyway, I have said what i could. Deny this.

and for the millionth time- Hinduism is much better than junk cult of Christianity and bearded ghazis, though my point is that atleast in matters of sex it is as repressive.

 

[Vikramjeet]

At each era...a kind of practice..
you cant look at it through the lens of today and show it in bad light.


What is practiced today will be questioned by the future generation..Dont tell me NO!

Its easy to generalize..

Indeed and see my next post.

 

[sorcerer]

Is it not funny that a man who is being called Muslim or Christian is only talking with references from Hindu texts like Ramayana, Lalitvistara and even secular ones like Kamasutra while all 'Hindus' are just replying by abusing him with no idea about their own texts?

Delusions are hard to die but anyway, I have said what i could. Deny this.

and for the millionth time- Hinduism is much better than junk cult of Christianity and bearded ghazis, though my point is that atleast in matters of sex it is as repressive.

The abuse happens when you twist fact of the texts and trying to squeeze it into present scenario.
oh..Just like you I was generalizing your posts and points...
AS some peope in here say "Showing the mirror"

Now you wanna bring sex into the picture...From veils to sex..