History of Central and Eastern Europe

[Damian]

@Damian
You asked the question, who is more supportive of old or young the Western course. I'm 35 years. I was born in the USSR, and the third part of my life it was my Motherland. And I am offended when young people from 18 to 20 years do not know their history. Leave the Holodomor and the historical injustice. We take the defense of Odessa in 1941. Here many of the streets are vesture dipped with the blood of the soldiers who defended the city. And now, they are named after the people of those who defended Odessa. Young people do not know why the streets are their names. Do not know why the central square 10 of April (the Day of liberation of Odessa), but know the Western Ukrainian heroes and UPA "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (which in Poland want to condemn). My grandfather (the son of a nobleman) was burning in a tank at Kursk, the defense of their Motherland, and I want to have it for my children remained a hero, and not those, who shot them in the back of the Soviet and Polish soldiers, under the slogan «For free Ukraine».

But this is a freedom of young people to choose their values. I do not deny a fact that your ancestor could be a hero, and you treat him that way. However I think that also UPA is not seen completely fair, some of UPA units done horrible things, other units were composed of men fighting for freedom of their country.

 

[Akim]

But this is a freedom of young people to choose their values. I do not deny a fact that your ancestor could be a hero, and you treat him that way. However I think that also UPA is not seen completely fair, some of UPA units done horrible things, other units were composed of men fighting for freedom of their country.

Especially soldiers of the SS division «Galichina» - a lot of «good» done for Ukraine. Officially prohibited their commemorate, but in the Western regions of violating the law.
For the entire war in the UPA fought 100 thousand Ukrainians, and in the red Army 2.5 million. Why should I turn the scales in favor of those who never far Western Bug has not been on the territory of Ukraine?
As in Poland belong to the Armia Krajowa, which together with the Soviet armies released the territory of Poland?

 

[Damian]

Especially soldiers of the SS division «Galichina» - a lot of «good» done for Ukraine. Officially prohibited their commemorate, but in the Western regions of violating the law.
For the entire war in the UPA fought 100 thousand Ukrainians, and in the red Army 2.5 million. Why should I turn the scales in favor of those who never far Western Bug has not been on the territory of Ukraine?

Not all of them were thugs, some were patriots fighting for freedom.

As in Poland belong to the Armia Krajowa, which together with the Soviet armies released the territory of Poland?

Armia Krajowa or Home Army, was fighting both against Germans and Soviets, Soviet NKVD killed many Polish civilians, associates of Home Army and soldiers of Home Army, as well as smaller resistance groups like BCh.

In 1945 and several years after the war, there was constant internal war between NKVD/Soviet Army, their Polish puppets like UB and Home Army attacking their outposts to free political prisoners.

 

[Akim]

Not all of them were thugs, some were patriots fighting for freedom.

And for the USSR fought some only those who are not fond of Ukraine. Just values were different. Me, like many of the inhabitants of the South-East liked the status of the Ukrainian SSR.

Armia Krajowa or Home Army, was fighting both against Germans and Soviets, Soviet NKVD killed many Polish civilians, associates of Home Army and soldiers of Home Army, as well as smaller resistance groups like BCh.

In 1945 and several years after the war, there was constant internal war between NKVD/Soviet Army, their Polish puppets like UB and Home Army attacking their outposts to free political prisoners.

I'm sorry, I do not was referring to those ( was wrong). I asked about the First Polish Army, formed on the territory of the USSR?

 

[Damian]

I'm sorry, I do not was referring to those ( was wrong). I asked about the First Polish Army, formed on the territory of the USSR?



And for the USSR fought some only those who are not fond of Ukraine. Just values were different. Me, like many of the inhabitants of the South-East like the status of the Ukrainian SSR.

This is a thing of past, better think about future, and how to make Ukraine strong, independent country, not just a province of someone bigger.

 

[pmaitra]

This is a thing of past, better think about future, and how to make Ukraine strong, independent country, not just a province of someone bigger.

I think all Slavs, Tatars, Cossacks, etc., get along very well. If Poland wants to be too cosy with the west, so be it. Let's leave it up to the people of Ukraine. Ukraine, IMHO, is more independent than Poland, because it is not part of any military alliance.

Being independent does not mean being close to the west.

 

[Akim]

This is a thing of past, better think about future, and how to make Ukraine strong, independent country, not just a province of someone bigger.

I'm against the unification with modern Russia, about when the USSR, Ukraine was not a province.

 

[Damian]

I think all Slavs, Tatars, Cossacks, etc., get along very well. If Poland wants to be too cosy with the west, so be it. Let's leave it up to the people of Ukraine. Ukraine, IMHO, is more independent than Poland, because it is not part of any military alliance.

Being independent does not mean being close to the west.

NATO do not force anything on us, really we have far more freedom within NATO than we had being part of Warsaw Pact.

I give you an example, in Warsaw Pact we had no choice, Soviets said that we will have their bases on our soil, and we needed to agree, there was no option to say "no".

In case of NATO we have a choice, we can invite an ally to place it's military units, or say no, nobody force anything on anyone.

In fact if we would wish, we could ignore USA and do not send our troops to Iraq and Afghanistan. However it was decided otherwise by our goverment, and I must say, despite some losses, we gained very needed experience and this beggined a real modernization of our armed forces.

In fact partnership within NATO give us a solid kick in the ass to modernize and improve armed forces.

Today Army is far more effective, better trained, better equiped than it was during Cold War. And NATO allies do not sell us obsolete weapon systems or downgraded export models.

For example Leopard 2 tanks and their modernization, cooperation with Germany, means soon we will have 256 very modern tanks, modernized and upgraded. Poland is one of two, or three European countries using one fo the most advanced variants of the F-16 fighter.

Sikorsky and some other helicopter companies are openin factories in Poland, in fact most S-70i Black Hawks have hulls made in Poland.

Cooperaion is moving very well for our military industry, good example is HSW company, manufacturing artillery systems, for example Krab 155mm SPH which is one of the most modern artillery systems avaiable today, have a turret designed by British for AS-90/52, we have full licence for this turret and we can redesign it in whatever way we wish.

Other great example of cooperation is Rosomak APC, which is Polish version of Finnish AMV. In fact Patria, the company that designed AMV, signed a cooperation agreement few years ago, that we can modify their design whatever way we can, and our improvements are considered by Patria as very interesting and they wish to use them in their offer of more AMV variants.

We could not do that when we was under Soviet reign.

To be honest, without being in NATO, I doubt that we would be capable to rebuild our military industry. However to be fair, we still have a very long way ahead of us.

 

[Akim]

NATO do not force anything on us, really we have far more freedom within NATO than we had being part of Warsaw Pact.

I give you an example, in Warsaw Pact we had no choice, Soviets said that we will have their bases on our soil, and we needed to agree, there was no option to say "no".

This is all the modern propaganda. When Poland was a member of the Warsaw Pact, its soldiers did not fight anywhere. And in the NATO - Iran and Afghanistan. As to the level of combat training - I agree. She is now higher than that of the socialist Poland, because you have to NATO in the first rows (your soldiers as «cannon fodder»») in the event of a hypothetical war with Russia.

 

[pmaitra]

NATO do not force anything on us, really we have far more freedom within NATO than we had being part of Warsaw Pact.

I think NATO makes it mandatory to come to the defence of another NATO member?

Poland does not have an independent foreign policy. Ukraine does.

I'm against the unification with modern Russia, about when the USSR, Ukraine was not a province.

Yes, and during USSR, Ukraine had its own UN representative.

 

[Damian]

I think NATO makes it mandatory to come to the defence of another NATO member?

No, you can defend ally but this is not mandatory.

Poland does not have an independent foreign policy. Ukraine does.

You know very little about my country, we have absolutely independent policy. However we believe in cooperation with allies and closest neighbours. Afterall if something benefit us, why not cooperate? Cooperation with Germany benefits us, then we cooperate.

This is all the modern propaganda.

I wonder what is propaganda, reality or things you believe in.

When Poland was a member of the Warsaw Pact, its soldiers did not fight anywhere.

And? Fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan was our own sovereign decision, not forced by anyone, however you can believe in any BS you wish to.

By the way, Ukraine was also in Iraq, this means it was not sovereign decision of Ukraine to participate?

As to the level of combat training - I agree. She is now higher than that of the socialist Poland, because you have to NATO in the first rows (your soldiers as «cannon fodder»») in the event of a hypothetical war with Russia.

This is just result of our position in Europe, if Poland would be in place of Belgium, we could invest less money in our armed forces, we do not have such comfort, but on the other hand nobody is really complaining, most of nation preffer to have stronger military, we are not becoming soft like some western european countries.

As for our soldiers as "cannon fodder", this improper interpreatation, every country can be possibly in threat, does it make it's soldiers a cannon fodder?

It is hard to even call by this a much smaller, yet better trained and equiped proffesional army. Conscription was fully abandoned about 5 years ago, there are still some problems but overall quality of army improved, and is still improving. Such army can be hardly called cannon fodder.

 

[Akim]

And? Fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan was our own sovereign decision, not forced by anyone, however you can believe in any BS you wish to.

Why should is Poland? On its territory were the twin towers?

 

[pmaitra]

@Damian, it is rather bizarre, that Poland has lost its independent foreign policy, is being forced to commit troops in countries it has no dispute with, and yet, you continue to delude yourself that Poland is independent, and at the same time, you offer your advise to other countries in independence, when those very countries are far more independent than Poland.

 

[Damian]

Why should is Poland? On its territory were the twin towers?

You are definetely not a politician, there are benefits we gained, not even meassured by money, but by nececary experiences for armed forces modernization.

Besides this, you ignore a fact that Ukraine also participated in military operations in Iraq.

@Damian, it is rather bizarre, that Poland has lost its independent foreign policy, is being forced to commit troops in countries it has no dispute with, and yet, you continue to delude yourself that Poland is independent, and at the same time, you offer your advise to other countries in independence, when those very countries are far more independent than Poland.

You have absolutely no idea what about you are talking. I will leave you here, as it is immposible for you to comprehend any logical argument, or even reality.

Besides this, I am fully aware that you are troll.

Obvious fact is however that through cooperation, we have allies, and still we are independant. But the main difference is, who have friends and who is alone.

We can cooperate openly with our allies in many different ways, we can openly share technology, solve economic problems, or do other things, for example make togheter military excercises and share experiences, which again improve our situation.

Last year during "Borsuk 12" excercises we have German tank unit that trained with our army, defence operations, this was also first step to modernize our Leopard 2's and purchase more from Germany, which again will improve capabilities of our armed forces.

And there exist cooperation with other countries.

Cooperation and partnership within NATO does not mean lack of sovereignity, it is typical misconception among ignorants who never were in NATO structures and do not understand internal relationships between allies.

 

[pmaitra]

You are definetely not a politician, there are benefits we gained, not even meassured by money, but by nececary experiences.



You have absolutely no idea what about you are talking. I will leave you here, as it is immposible for you to comprehend any logical argument, or even reality.

Besides this, I am fully aware that you are troll.

I completely understand. You can call me a troll, and say I do not understand, but the way I see it, is that you, being from Poland, a country that has lost its independent foreign policy, should not be preaching others. I think that makes is quite clear.

Pot-Kettle.

If pointing out someone's hypocrisy is trolling, then so be it.

 

[Damian]

I completely understand. You can call me a troll, and say I do not understand, but the way I see it, is that you, being from Poland, a country that has lost its independent foreign policy, should not be preaching others. I think that makes is quite clear.

The problem is that you, in your absolute ignorance, do not understand that we do not lost our independence, and I am more certain you are not sentient life form, if you are not capable to comprehend this.

If pointing out someone's hypocrisy is trolling, then so be it.

Then it only prooves my opinion about your intelectual level... or rather lack of it.

Besides this, who in your opinion control our foreing politics?

Poland openly oppose many EU projects, like for example Nord Stream gas line.

This means lack of independent foreing policy if we oppose action that are against our own interest?

Or do we have any significant number of foreing troops stationing on our soil keeping us in line?

No, besides periodical excersices there is no such presence, and if you mean US ABM system crews, their numbers will be so insignificant and weakly armed that they are no threat to us, not to mention they are allies, and it was our own independent decision to ask for ABM system emplacement.

You have absolutely no knowledge about our politics, and your opinions lack any basic logic.

 

[nrupatunga]

Poland or other much smaller countries like czechs and slovaks might not have joined Nato if it was not led by US. Its not as if they have any affinity towards US though there is huge polish diaspora in US. Poland joined nato as soon as possible after soviets disintegrated because of past history. Whenever poles found themselves weak it was runover either by russians or germans. They had to get into alliance with french or other rivals of german/russians. Under napolean, they got themsleves new political entity which had been taken away by constant partition of polish lands by germans and russians. As germans and russians became much stronger and stronger they had to find an alliance with another power. In 19th or very early 20th century it might be french/british. Now this has taken place with an US alliance. Poand will find it difficult to ward off 2 powerful neigbours. So they have to go with US. Hence it also becomes difficult to say no to US requests of sending soldiers to iraq/a'stan etc.

 

[pmaitra]

The problem is that you, in your absolute ignorance, do not understand that we do not lost our independence, and I am more certain you are not sentient life form, if you are not capable to comprehend this.



Then it only prooves my opinion about your intelectual level... or rather lack of it.

The only argument you can offer in most of your arguments almost always follow the same narrative: "You do not understand," "You are ignorant," "You are a troll," etc.. Doesn't make your point any more valid, rather, manifests your desperation to convince the unconvinced and free people about Poland's mythical independence. Poland has been stuck in its petty regional nationalism, and some people, sadly, fail to see it from the larger perspective. I am neither Russian, nor Polish, but in a future hypothetical Polish-Russian War, I can only see Slavs killing other Slavs, and Slavic blood paving the way for Western domination of the weakened Slavic people .

 

[Akim]

Besides this, you ignore a fact that Ukraine also participated in military operations in Iraq..

I think this is a mistake - political mistake. I still, after 10 years of not understand the politicians who made this decision.

 

[Damian]

The only argument you can offer in most of your arguments almost always follow the same narrative: "You do not understand," "You are ignorant," "You are a troll," etc.. Doesn't make your point any more valid, rather, manifests your desperation to convince the unconvinced and free people about Poland's mythical independence. Poland has been stuck in its petty regional nationalism, and some people, sadly, fail to see it from the larger perspective. I am neither Russian, nor Polish, but in a future hypothetical Polish-Russian War, I can only see Slavs killing other Slavs, and Slavic blood paving the way for Western domination of the weakened Slavic people .

We do not like Russians, they are not brothers to us, and neither we desire any closer relationship.

But, remember that our military doctrine is purely defensive, we do not seek to attack any of our neighbours. If Russia will attack, this will gave us another reason to hate them and their seek of domination over us.

We do not have such bad blood with France, UK or USA.