History of Central and Eastern Europe

[pmaitra]

That is like suggesting that since turks formed their empire first in mongolia region, an azeri is closer to a mongol than an anatolian turk.

laughable indeed with good bit of poland baiting.


Russia is an imperialist power much more than the west and so it is better for poles and ukrainians to have their freedom.

You are free to interpret it whatever way you want. I have provided a link, so read it. The Mongol Empire was not founded by the Turks; it was founded by Buryat Mongols.

Turks originate in central China, while Buryat Mongols have their origin in northern Mongolia and southern Siberia.

 

[pmaitra]

No, I know Ukrainians that share the same opinion, do you actually know Poland-Ukraine history?

I know, for sure, the Russian Empire originated in Kiev.

This have absolutely nothing to do with more modern times, and parts of Rus was also part of Polish Kingdom, you are oversimplifing history here.

Modern times are different. history is complicated, and I concede, my post, was simplification of history.

Frustrates Ukrainians? Did you ever talk with young Ukrainians for their opinion? I can give you even a contact.

Present day Ukraine is divided. Present day Ukraine also contains territory transferred from RSFSR to Ukrainian SSR, by Nikita Khruschev. So, you will never get an equivocal Ukrainian answer.

Partially truth. Our position in Europe is problematic, we have Germany on the one side and Russia on the other, and both not always were friendly, it is difficult to fight on 2 or even 3 fronts.

Of course, neighbouring communities, will trade, and cooperate, but also fight, and quarrel. This has happened all throughout history.

Poland do not have anything common with Prussia however, you are confusing countries, Poland was part of Prussia that was part of German Reich for some time, as well as Austro-Hungary and Russian Empire, after WWI we gained independence, and everything would be good if not 3rd Reich and Soviet Union attacked us.

No, actually, if you look at the map of Prussia during WW1, and look at the map of Poland, you will see the obvious overlap.

And we not allways were weakest, in 1920's we stopped Red Army in their march towards western Europe.

Yes, they did, but then, Red Army stopped on the banks of the Vistula, so that the Nazis cold finish of the Polish nationalists. It was a war strategy.

However I completely understand you are biased and do not like us.

No, I do not dislike anybody. I just like to stick to facts, and I don't like re-writing of history.

 

[Damian]

I know, for sure, the Russian Empire originated in Kiev.

Oh really, and where were Tsars sitting in Kiev?

Present day Ukraine is divided. Present day Ukraine also contains territory transferred from RSFSR to Ukrainian SSR, by Nikita Khruschev. So, you will never get an equivocal Ukrainian answer.

You should know that there is Russian minority in countries like Ukraine, they will allways be happy to rejoin with their motherland, a view not shared by native Ukrainians.

Of course, neighbouring communities, will trade, and cooperate, but also fight, and quarrel. This has happened all throughout history.

This is not a problem, problem is when you start to fight on several fronts... however in fact Poland fight such wars for decades, centuries even, so many wars can, weaken you.

No, actually, if you look at the map of Prussia during WW1, and look at the map of Poland, you will see the obvious overlap.

It was because some regions along borders were once rulled by Prussia, then Poland, then Prussia again, and so on.

Yes, they did, but then, Red Army stopped on the banks of the Vistula, so that the Nazis cold finish of the Polish nationalists. It was a war strategy.

Eh... what?! In 1920's? You confuse Poland Soviet war with beggining of World War II.

No, I do not dislike anybody. I just like to stick to facts, and I don't like re-writing of history.

And how do you know that history you belief in is the right one? And not rewrited one?

For example I still remember the widespread myth by Germans and Soviets that in 1939 Polish Cavalry fighted with German tanks by using sabres, when in fact cavalry had very potent anti tank weapons, like this -----> Bofors 37 mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MAYURA]

You are free to interpret it whatever way you want. I have provided a link, so read it. The Mongol Empire was not founded by the Turks; it was founded by Buryat Mongols.

Turks originate in central China, while Buryat Mongols have their origin in northern Mongolia and southern Siberia.

I drew an analogy and your failure to grasp that raises some serious questions.



so let me make you understand like a child is told.


you said ukrainians are related to russians just because russian empire was founded in kiev.

i drew an example that since turks emerged from mongolia, should we assume that mongols are more related to an azeri ( hope you know ) than an anatolian turk?


if we can not, then we can not link russia with russian empire founded in kiev to suggest closeness of ukrainian with a russian vis a vis a pole.

 

[Damian]

Not to mention that Russian empire was not founded in Kiev, in fact Kiev was for many years within borders of Polish Kingdom and was never a capital city of Tsars.

Russian empire was founded in 1721 by Peter I The Great, after he took a title of Emperor. And capital cities were then Moscow and Petersburg.

 

[MAYURA]

however in fact Poland fight such wars for decades, centuries even, so many wars can, weaken you.

That is true. poland saved Europe but europe ate it.

that is politics my friend.

 

[Damian]

That is true. poland saved Europe but europe ate it.

that is politics my friend.

So true, unfortunetely.

 

[MAYURA]

Russian empire was founded in 1721 by Peter I The Great, after he took a title of Emperor. And capital cities were then Moscow and Petersburg.

do the russian nationalists claim with start of empire or start of romanov dynasty?

 

[MAYURA]

So true, unfortunetely.

I learnt all this when my interest was aroused on another forum on polish gallant resistance to turks which the ungrateful austrians, prussians and russians ( biggest land grabber of history with han chinese) paid in back by annexing the polish regions.

It was a lesson for poland to promote self interest and that only.
the same thing occured in 1920 when the read army failed miserably at hands of polish army but soviet lovers hide this but Poles relied a bit more on france and british who in 1945 sold it to that bastard Stalin.



anyway, you are free now and can match up a minimum credible defense system.

 

[Damian]

do the russian nationalists claim with start of empire or start of romanov dynasty?

I don't know what they claim, but history marks this date as official beggining of Russian Empire, untill October Revolution.

I learnt all this when my interest was aroused on another forum on polish gallant resistance to turks which the ungrateful austrians, prussians and russians ( biggest land grabber of history with han chinese) paid in back by annexing the polish regions.

It was a lesson for poland to promote self interest and that only.
the same thing occured in 1920 when the read army failed miserably at hands of polish army but soviet lovers hide this but Poles relied a bit more on france and british who in 1945 sold it to that bastard Stalin.



anyway, you are free now and can match up a minimum credible defense system.

Yup, we figured out it is better to build up regional alliances first, with closest neighbours that share common interests.

 

[pmaitra]

Oh really, and where were Tsars sitting in Kiev?

What I said: Russian Empire has its origins in the Kievan Rus.
What I did not say: The Russian Tsars were sitting in Kiev.

You should know that there is Russian minority in countries like Ukraine, they will allways be happy to rejoin with their motherland, a view not shared by native Ukrainians.

Ukraine is divided.

This is not a problem, problem is when you start to fight on several fronts... however in fact Poland fight such wars for decades, centuries even, so many wars can, weaken you.

Yes, true.

It was because some regions along borders were once rulled by Prussia, then Poland, then Prussia again, and so on.

Yes, true.

Eh... what?! In 1920's? You confuse Poland Soviet war with beggining of World War II.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about WW2.

And how do you know that history you belief in is the right one? And not rewrited one?

Well, I have read history written by someone, who was probably not a Polish nationalist.

For example I still remember the widespread myth by Germans and Soviets that in 1939 Polish Cavalry fighted with German tanks by using sabres, when in fact cavalry had very potent anti tank weapons, like this -----> Bofors 37 mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Irrelevant.

 

[pmaitra]

Not to mention that Russian empire was not founded in Kiev, in fact Kiev was for many years within borders of Polish Kingdom and was never a capital city of Tsars.

Russian empire was founded in 1721 by Peter I The Great, after he took a title of Emperor. And capital cities were then Moscow and Petersburg.

The Russian Empire was founded when Kazan became a vassal. Until then, Kazan was the heart of the Empire. I hope you understand the Empire-Vassal relationship. The founding of the Empire is different from founding of the polity, and national identity. The identity is still, "Rus."

Anyway, I will request @Akim, to give us a history of the Kievan Rus.

 

[pmaitra]

I drew an analogy and your failure to grasp that raises some serious questions.



so let me make you understand like a child is told.


you said ukrainians are related to russians just because russian empire was founded in kiev.

i drew an example that since turks emerged from mongolia, should we assume that mongols are more related to an azeri ( hope you know ) than an anatolian turk?


if we can not, then we can not link russia with russian empire founded in kiev to suggest closeness of ukrainian with a russian vis a vis a pole.

Your analogy was wrong, because you made up a story, that Mongol Empire was founded by the Turks.

Secondly, Azerbaijan (your example) and East Turkestan (origin of Turks, again your example) do not share a border, and are quite far apart; while Ukraine and Russia do, and have done for centuries.

Therefore, you analogy is one that can only be drawn by an 11 year old petulant child.

 

[MAYURA]

Your analogy was wrong, because you made up a story, that Mongol Empire was founded by the Turks.

just like other bull headed communists, you are totally unaware of any history.

I was talking about turkic empire founded in mongolia.

ever heard of orkhon inscriptions?

Secondly, Azerbaijan (your example) and East Turkestan (origin of Turks, again your example) do not share a border, and are quite far apart; while Ukraine and Russia do, and have done for centuries.

You are too ignorant of history to grasp the things.

east turkestan was never mentioned by me.

Therefore, you analogy is one that can only be drawn by an 11 year old petulant child.

But what is surprising is that you have no idea about what you are speaking.

just the other day you were talking about discipline and integrity and this is your real face, not debating for sake of gaining any perspective but just flattering self ego.


are you even aware of anything historical?

 

[pmaitra]

First of all, you should inculcate a habit of first reading how the conversation proceeds. Let me hwlp you, since you have a problem of understanding:

I countered Damian, and one of his points that I countered is this:

It is a historical fact that Poles and Ukrainians are more a brothers than Russians and Ukrainians, as Ukraine was part of Poland for a relatively longer time period, and there is more commonality between Poles and Ukrainians than Russians and Ukrainians.

Damian's response included this (I hope this penetrates your thick skull):

You should know that there is Russian minority in countries like Ukraine, they will allways be happy to rejoin with their motherland, a view not shared by native Ukrainians.

Your response was this:

Russia is an imperialist power much more than the west and so it is better for poles and ukrainians to have their freedom.

Although I have never suggested that Ukraine should not have its freedom.

So, I hope you realize that you are creating your own strawman and arguing against it?

[HR][/HR]

Now, let's look at all the nonsense you have written:

just like other bull headed communists, you are totally unaware of any history.
Irrelevant. This discussion is not about communists.

I was talking about turkic empire founded in mongolia.
You were wrong, just admit it. Don't keep arguing when you don't know what you are talking about.

ever heard of orkhon inscriptions?
Is that relevant when I am discussing whether Ukrainians are very close to Russians/Poles?


You are too ignorant of history to grasp the things.
Ok, and yet, you come in and write wrong information.

east turkestan was never mentioned by me.
You said "turks founded Mongol Empire," so yes, I had to correct you, and tell you, the origin of Turks.

But what is surprising is that you have no idea about what you are speaking.
Ok, fine.

just the other day you were talking about discipline and integrity and this is your real face, not debating for sake of gaining any perspective but just flattering self ego.
Puerile. You are trying to debate wth me just because we had an argument in another thread. How childish. Grow up.

are you even aware of anything historical?
You are not going to establish yourself as a prolific historian by asking that question.

 

[MAYURA]

You said "turks founded Mongol Empire,"

now prove it where i said that.

it is so simple now.

 

[pmaitra]

now prove it where i said that.

it is so simple now.

Ok, my apologies, I misunderstood you.

 

[CCTV]

Winged hussar vs Cossack

I watched a movie called Taras Bulba. In the movie, Cossacks and Poland warlords are not brothers.......

 

[MAYURA]

Ok, my apologies, I misunderstood you.

Okay and this happens sometimes in heat of debate.

 

[pmaitra]

Winged hussar vs Cossack

I watched a movie called Taras Bulba. In the movie, Cossacks and Poland warlords are not brothers.......

Cossacks have been part of Ukraine for centuries. So, the term "Ukrainian" as in present day Ukraine includes Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Cossacks, as well as other minorities.