History of Central and Eastern Europe

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by Keshav Murali, May 8, 2013.

  1. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Still I believe that individuals should have freedom to choice what they want to do, this of course does not mean lack of responsibility, but lack, even such basic product like a condom, is a pressure on human freedom and dignity.

    This is a complicated issue, on one side priase freedom, on the other know that there is reponsibility, and this is even more problematic when it comes to human sexuality and procreation.

    But in my opinion, in Soviet Union, human being was still not respected, despite that whole communist crap talk, about equality and so on.
     
  2. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Exatly! It's "belief" not science, not serching truth not beeing historian scientist, it's just "belief" -
    many times ago peopels "belief" that earth is flat, or "belief" erth is in centre of the galaxy, etc.
    It's huge diffrence between "belief" and science. You are on "belief" level and it;s your problem.

    There where not "western" sources prior to the start of the Cold War about Soviet fallen soilders. All sources where based on Soviet data.

    You don;t understand. Bullshit about 26 and 20 milions fallen soilderw was refuted by russian scientists in 1990s and 2000s and it was based on offcial military historians General Staff of the Russian Army team work. There is no point to discuss, you are just wrong. What more - it was very short sime in Russia history when historian scientist can do their job whit orginall sources it was between 1991 and circa 1999, after that archives were closed again, but work and
    documents find and bublicated between 1991 and 1999 nobody can challenge becouse there wher based on orgins documents.
    The same is about 11 794 000 number of fallen soilders in Soviet Union. Of course Yoiu can find USA, German, even Russian sources written after 2000 and talking abouit 26 milions - why not? But all of tham are basing on selective choice of sources - or the lack of a better (newest) than 1990 or for political reson (pure propaganda).
    You can chose what wyou want - belief in 26 milions fallen soilder or flat earth or just try to accept that some peopels known better then you how to work with sources and they just had lernt how to use sources.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  3. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    @militarysta,

    You are a decent guy. If my comments seemed harsh, then it was because some of you seemed to trivialize the deaths of Soviet people. I do, however, intend to tell you, that, even if I may disagree with your data and your thesis, does not mean I am disrespecting your thesis. I respectfully disagree with your data. Similarly, after the recent border problem India had with PRC, I have gone on the record to say that PRC is an enemy, but an enemy worthy of respect. I think we should stick to that.

    I will try to be respectful, and you can help keep this debate mutually respectful if you can avoid using vulgar language.
     
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  4. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    From medical point of viev fetus before end of the third mount have no brain, no feelings, can't feel pain and others. In fact it's parasite in the body of the mother from stricte medical point of viev. And in many cultures those ded line - third mount - was celary known from centuries. After that date fetus start to beeing more and more human.

    I really don;t like catholic church.
     
  5. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Sure, sorry for that. Before hedhunter recrutate me in to corporation I was working as really young scientists at university on political saince, unfortu-nalty private bizness give me more then twice better sallery then work with students so now it's only the memory. But im's still pretty conected whit history and political saince and sometimes it's makes me mad when I see the same stories taken from the sam propaganda -no metter polish, ukrainian, russian, USA or others. But indeed sorry for my reaction and beeing rude.
     
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  6. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Still, killing a fetus is waste of life to be honest.

    As for religions, I do not like religions at all, now you understand, I do not believe in life after death, and this is why I believe that killing unborn children be it not sentient fetus or not, is still waste of life.
     
  7. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    @DamianYour dislike of the Soviet Union at the level of the subconscious. Such phenomena are frequent among young people in Western Ukraine. Who whereas did not live, don't know - but to them were told and, fuelling a political speech, they begin to hate the Russians or Russian-speaking Ukrainians. As long as there are not many. Yushchenko wanted to do more, but still a live, people living in conscious age in the USSR (now him 35-40 years) - this did not happen.
     
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  8. nrupatunga

    nrupatunga Senior Member Senior Member

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    All in all, whether its poles, russians, ukrainians all have suffered. Though one has to move forward but one can not reject history.( If history is rejected, which is what is happening in india. Just to show everything was fine in last 1000 years, the sufferings, losses, destructions are being hidden here and a false picture is being put up.. This will rebound.)

    Similarly whether its poles, russians etc each side is putting its own version of history. But efforts have to be made that there is less friction among people. EU was a step in that direction where every country put aside its differences and tried to focus on growth. But looking at it now, it may be that every nation has to put in more efforts to just make it stand. Hopefully every nation understands what might happen if EU fails.
     
  9. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    There is however significant problem within EU.

    First economics, EU leaders are mostly socialists, openly admitting this or not, but still socialists, they try to create a quasi state controlled economies, which in the end means economic problems. And then there is Euro currency, this currency is absolutely not adjusted to all differenc economies within EU, we can see this in Greece and many other countries, this is why Greece have economic problem with Euro as a currency, and much poorer Poland do not have problems thanks to it's national currency Zloty, which is adjusted to it's economy. If EU need to survive, it's leaders need to resign from Euro, and give more freedom to each country, to decide how it's economy should work.

    We should remember that all regulations within EU were made, to protect economies of France and Germany, against possible competitor in new countries comming to EU, that could achieve greater economic growth.

    Second is a problem with accepting that EU is just federation of independent, sovereign states, this is why Brussels have so many problms with new states within EU, because instead of listening them, we have our own interest that we are realizing, and we do not agree with all decisions made by old states of the EU.

    In the end EU most probably will not exist in nearest future, it's leaders will not change, neither they will give up and agree to put more competent people on their places, this will end with more serious crisis than it is today, and countries will start to withdraw from EU, it is anticipated that UK will be first, as there is strong anti EU sentiment, but don't be wrong, among younger poplation there is strong sentiment to not like EU in countries like Poland.
    @Akim, my father who lived during communism dislike Soviet Union as well, my uncles, aunts, my grandmothers also dislike SU, you think that only younger generations are not friendly to ideals represented by SU?
     
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  10. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    May be. But I am, after 5 days of becoming a father, and would like to have my son was happy childhood- as have my. But look children of tmy comrades and I doubt very much in the children's joy in modern Ukraine and Russia.
     
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  11. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    My congratulations. And don't worry, in the 1990's our economic situation was not especially better, but we worked, hard, on our own, and as you can see, Poland, as well as Czech Republic and several other countries, have better economic situation.
     
  12. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/europe-russia/50937-more-russians-prefer-unemployment-benefits-working.html#post730325

    This system will never be such as socialist. I walked in many sections, and attended free of charge the swimming pool and on Sambo, was engaged in aircraft modeling. I was taught to play the guitar and piano. In the 13 years even drove a diesel locomotive of the children's railway. And now it's all there,, but for all have to pay much. And the modern child will not be able to imagine all this allow as I. So all this they replace a TV and a computer.
    [​IMG]
    I used to spend every summer in the camps and in their free time all day playing with friends in the street. And parents do not flee to the police, if I had not come at 9 PM.
     
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  13. nrupatunga

    nrupatunga Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Damian As you said EU was formed to protect franco-german interests in europe. They will continue to resist any changes which may reduce their power vis-a-vis other members in EU. Friction is bound to appear. Already UK has more or less taken one foot outside. But when EU becomes a failure, how long before the scenario returns to late 19th and early 20th century like situation. So are countries like poland ready for it?? Can it take on powers that will come after it??
     
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  14. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    There is nothing for free, if you think that all these camps were free you are wrong, you parents, and other citizens payed this in form of taxes, in the end it was far more expensive, with illusion of being free. Besides this, such activities detoriate economy.

    You should read books of Friederich Hayek and Milton Friedman about economy.

    Also people that preffer being unemployed is a symptome of socialist state, because in capitalism, such parasites are not supported, they work or starve, in socialism they receive help in form of money that is taken from working people in form of taxes... pure socialism it is.

    As far as I can tell, only Poland is seriously modernizing it's armed forces from all new countries in the EU. Despite all the problems we have, I think that hopefully our political class (at least these bigger center-right wing parties) are recently putting a lot of effort to modernize and rebuild armed forces and military industry. However how long this process will take and how effective it will be, we will see.

    Although definetely in central Europe, Polish Army is one of the stronger and more modern ones, stronger and more modern army have I think only Germans... and in some way Russians.
     
  15. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    I did not say that the summer camp was free of charge. He just had belonged to different labour organizations, and my parents paid for only 10% of the value of the vouchers, the rest is paid by the trade Union. It was a symbolic price (20 rubles per month of stay). But all the rest was for the children free of charge. Of course it was distributed taxes, but it was uniformly and not noticeable to the population. So the children had equal rights. If my dad earned 300 Soviet rubles, or whether the father other a child has earned 160 rubles.
    Now all for the money. Therefore, people with low incomes cannot afford. An example: I for childbirth have to go to pay 1000 dollars. And as many of the first month of the child. Then it will no be easier. But if someone has no of such money? That's because the family and can't have more than one child. Is not enough of kindergartens. In schools the teachers low salaries. Of school outfit is worth a lot of money and so on...
    Why should I read all the delusional literary trash of these theorists, when I see in the life of Vice versa.!
    I do not need such freedom!
     
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  16. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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  17. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    This is your choice, if you preffer to call smarter people and their work trash, or live as a slave, then I am perfectly ok with this. I preffer to be free men, that do not need to obey orders of criminals (and leaders of Soviet Union were criminals mostly) and imbeciles that don't have even slightest idea about economy.

    Besides this, compare the economy fo countries like USA where you have capitalism, and economy of North Korea where you have pure socialism, where people have higher standard of life?

    Even China to get out of economic collapse adopted capitalism, however still in deformed form, far from ideal of capitalism.

    Socialism is a cancer on humanity.

    Not to mention that Karl Marx that created socialism was pure rascist, I am amazed how you people can embrace such sick ideology, that perceived you as underhuman.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  18. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    You take the USSR in general, while the worst examples of its management Board. And I was talking about the years when I lived in. ( The end of the 70's 80th). For me it was a good time for my parents too. And for many people in the USSR. If Gorbachev had not started its reforms... Reforms were needed, but not so radical.
     
  19. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    What Gorbachev should do was not to disband Soviet Union at first, but change economy, slowly.

    His mistake was to quickly privatize huge industry, no, this is not a way to do. Tranzition from socialism to capitalism must be slow and well managed.

    What he should do, shoudl be first giving a permission to avarage citizens, to make their own small and medium companies. For example Kolchoz should be disbanded, and peasents should receive their land.

    This is why farmers in Poland were more efficent than farmers in Soviet Union, because we did not have huge Kolchoz, most land belonged to private farmers, and oday our farmers are in big % relatively rich people, sometimes richer than people like me living in cities.

    Second thing should be permission for citizens to create small and medium services in cities.

    And the last step should be privatization of huge industry.

    Quick privatization led to a dangerous situation when huge industry could be bought by organized crime organization and other such people, that have at that time money to do so. Of course they were not interested to keep these production centers running.

    Eventual disbanding of Soviet Union, should be the last step, with referendum in each republic if people want their own country, or still be a part of the union.

    In this I agree that reforms were managed poorly. But then again, I can understand this, because who would teach Gorbachev and other soviet politicians how to efficently manage any big project?

    In socialist states such thing as efficent management didn't existed, it was all wishfull thinking with lead to economic crisis.
     
  20. nrupatunga

    nrupatunga Senior Member Senior Member

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    But in case of poland, they have to face germans and russians only. I don't think some one like spain or france would come to poland as conquerors. Thats the tyranny of geography, even for us we have pakistan and china. Hopefully poland gets sufficient time to prepare. Are you people looking to build your own plane?? Don't just rely on f-16/f-35.
     

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