Here's How Israel will Attack Iran

Discussion in 'West Asia & Africa' started by ahmedsid, May 16, 2009.

  1. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    Yea, maybe he is. But he is only the President, and in Iran, the President does not have the final say, the ayatollahs do. And I haven't heard that the majority of the ayatollahs want war with Israel. Instead, the very fact that we're discussing Israel striking Iran's nuke facilities and not vice versa is proof enough of Iran's pacifist attitude towards war.

    What option did it have? How about implementing the UN resolution that created Israel in 1948? Let's not mince words here. Israel is an artificial state just like Pakistan, in fact it's much worse. If a part of India were broken off in 1947, and gifted away to Gypsies who haven't had any ties with the subcontinent for centuries, and subsequently, the gypsies barricaded the Indians living there in refugee camps for decades, we'd be just as pissed off as the Palestinians are.

    I'm talking about the modern state of Iran. When we say that India has never started any war, we refer to the modern republic of India, don't we? Same analogy.

    So if Pakistan issues a statement to Indian Muslims to overthrow the "infidel" Indian government in Delhi, that is reason enough for India to go to war against Pakistan? What kind of silly reasoning is this?

    and

    this. Make up your mind.

    Isn't that the same reasoning that G W Bush used? That terrorists are attacking the US "because they hate our democracy and freedom?" The world has moved on from such delusional and irrational thinking, you know.
     
  2. Auberon

    Auberon Regular Member

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    I ll take it you haven't been following the news for quite some years now then. The Ayatollahs support Hezbollah, issue statements calling Israel a cancerous tumour and the holocaust a big lie. Their "pacifist" attitude towards war doesn't stop them from supporting terrorists like Hamas.

    What prevented the Palestinians from declaring independence in 48 when Israel did? They didn't want Palestine, they wanted the whole of Israel.



    They do worse, they sponsor actors of terrorism.

    If they supply weapons to rebels in India to revolt against the govt., yes, it bloody well is.



    Your statement, Ayatollahs will wipe out the Zionist Regime.


    And mine, questioning the peaceful tendencies of the Ayatollahs. Fail to see the contradiction. You are talking about how the Iranians will wipe out the Zionist Regime, I am asking how their "peaceful attitude" fits in with their views regardig wiping out Israel.



    Strawman, whats Bush got to do with Pallies hatred of Israel?

    Classic, better and better, down to ad hominems now?
     
  3. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    And you have what proof for such a statement ? The actions of Hamas ?

    All nations agree that the only way Israel can hope for peace is if it implements the 2 state solutions.
     
  4. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    Hamas was elected by popular vote in the occupied territories. Does that make all Palestinians terrorists now?

    Of course they did! The British snatched away their land and gave it to foreigners, what do you think they should have wanted?!

    However, being a realist, I do see that there's no way of turning back the clock now. It's not 1948 anymore, and Israel is not just going to go away. In that light, it is but crystal clear that the only solution to the problem is to ensure a separate Palestinian state. Let me remind you that throughout the years, it has been Israel which has refused to grant the Palestinians their own state, preferring them to live as refugees. Many peace accords brokered by the US, including the Camp David summit were not implemented because Israel proposed ridiculous conditions, even though the idea of a Palestinian state in those accords was a very watered down one from the UN resolutions. Israel wants the palestinians to always live as a subjugated people under its protection, and refuses to consider their future as a sovereign state.

    And this was long after the Palestinians and everyone else concerned had recognised Israel's right to exist.

    No one defends their support of terrorism, least of all me. But would you rather have a full fledged war involving the whole of the middle east?

    Iran supplied weapons to rebels in Iraq? That's a first. Everything that I've read about the Iran-Iraq war leads me to believe that it was Saddam's power ambitions and expansionist attitude that caused the war. Iran did not attack or even provoke Saddam to go to war.

    We're arguing in circles. Israel has proved to be historically expansionist (I'm talking about the State of Israel), while Iran, while pursuing the wrong means (supporting terrorism) to achieve the right objective (establishment of a Palestinian state), has yet never gone to war.

    It's the type of thinking that has to do with it, whether it be Bush or anyone else who has those thoughts.
     
  5. Sailor

    Sailor Regular Member

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    I wish Bush was still President. If we are going to start nuking, I'd rather George in the Whitehouse than the Manhattan Liberals.

    That day at the site where the twin towers had been when George Bush gave that speech thanking the police and firemen, he said "Thanks for making America proud again".

    George Bush in the rubble of the Twin Towers addressing the police and fireman 2001.
    "Thanks for making us proud again".

    I was very impressed, and I'm not even an American. :usa:
     
  6. Auberon

    Auberon Regular Member

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    No, the actions of Palestinians in supporting Hamas, their use of child bombers, their indoctrination of their own kids to hate Jews, and the glorification of these action, that is ample proof that their hatred for Israelis exceeds their love for their own kids.

    By and large agree, however its not that simplistic and too many issues need to be sorted out before it can be deemed effective, including the issue of the Palestinian extremists themselves who see the sol. as a concession to the Zionist jackboot and watering down of their own cause.
     
  7. Auberon

    Auberon Regular Member

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    First of all, in a popular vote, their is precious little you can do when the candidate is armed and you are not :blum3: Secondly, YES, the Palestinians who do support Hamas are supporters of terrorism.


    Fair enough then, they didn't declare their independence, Israelis did. They didnt want Israelis to live there at all and haven't wanted since, too bad for them that Israel has the means to protect itself.

    A look at what Palestinians and their Arab bretheren have been doing throughout the years will be beneficial.

    BS, neither HAMAS nor your Ayatollahs recognise Israel's right to exist even now.

    No, and definately not a nuke armed one at that, hence I support the destruction of Iran's nuclear facilities by any means necessary.

    Demonstrates your knowledge, reading up a bit on Kurds might help.


    No we are not, your peaceful state is a supporter of killing civilians , no spin to it. Your "right objective" includes the destruction of the Israeli state.

    Ah yes Bush the hatemonger argument, not worth our time.
     
  8. Sailor

    Sailor Regular Member

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    Since that day in September 2001 there has not been another attack on US soil.
    I believe that without the firm resolve of President Bush, there would have been, and further, the world's airlines that we all take for granted for our holidays would have been compromised.
    All this has been achieved at great cost. But that is another story. The world was riding for a fall anyway and it was just a matter of time before 1929 caught up.

    "Thanks for making us proud".
    President George Bush, September 2001 :usa:

    Well done Mr President.
     
  9. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    With Israel, we would have seen a weapon system for the task if this was the direction they were taking, their sub launched cruise missiles are said to the a part of the nuclear deterrence.

    However some nations have that requirement and have developed specific weapon systems for that task.

    KEPD350

    Other than this, Israel will not hesitate or fear loss of men and equipment in carrying out its missions.

    However i really dont get this, Iran has achieved a balance in the region, it keeps on inflicting small cuts on Israel, Israel keeps on responding, gives them a nice topic to charge up crowds at home, Iranian Nuclear program is not aimed at Israel, the goals are much bigger.
     
  10. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    You are blaming all of Palestinians for

    Supporting Hamas

    Hamas polled ~440,000 votes out of ~990,000 votes and the voter turnout was 70-75%. So an absolute majority of the Palestinians do not support Hamas.
    Agan disillusionment against Fatah cannot be ruled out, they have not managed to achieve anything since their previous term.

    Use of Child Bombers

    The more extremist of the radicals in the Hamas definitely support the use of suicide bombers. The first suicide attack took place in 1993 and iirc since 2005 none have taken place. Again you are blaming all of the Palestinians for supporting suicide bombers and rocket attacks, when they may not necessarily support such acts.
    By voting in Congress in 1984, did all of India, support the riots of 1984 ?
    and again Pakistanis don't mind implementing peace deals with Taliban, who suicide bombed many of their cities.

    indoctrination to hate jews

    Such indoctrination exists all over the world, it is quite common amongst not only the Muslims but other communities too. I see no point in singling out muslims, when their killings of jews is dwarfed by those of the europeans.

    Some may call your questioning Islamic beliefs as being islamophobic too.

    Glorification of these actions

    Lionizing of which actions, all of the above ??
    And none of this is ample proof that Palestinians hate Israelis more than the love for their kids, in fact I would say that the desire for their own statehood, and freedom from "occupation is greater" than the love for their kids. Islamic world hails them for such.

    A 2-state solution as being shaped, addresses not only the simplistic but also many of the complex issues.
    In addition to Palestinian extremists, one mustn't forget that the Israeli extremists will also oppose this.
     
  11. Auberon

    Auberon Regular Member

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    The fact that not all of Palestinians voted for Hamas doesn't contradict the fact that most of them do in fact support it.

    You are again using the same "but not all of them" necessarily support these acts, Israel doesn't have the luxury of contemplating the fate of those who don't while rocketshells rain down on them.

    Comparing the gen. elec. for a democracy to a support for child suicide bombers? Expected better from you.

    I see, so because Pakistan implements peace deals with Taliban, Israel should implement peace deals with Hamas??

    [
    No, I was referring to the Palestinians.
    Feel free to quote from my post my questioning of Islamic beliefs.

    Their desire is not merely their own statehood, their desire is no statehood for Israel.

    Islamic world has been using them as pawns for the better of half a century now.
    AND Islamic world hailing them for their condemnable actions doesn't mean Israel has to too.


    Yes
     
  12. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    correct.

    Absolutely not.

    Their double standards are well known too.

    You don't need nukes to attack Taliban and Qaeda though might need to counter Hamas, and Hezbollah :wink:

    I think Iranian missile arsenal is not as big a deterrent as the fact that Israel ain't no USA.
    For a more technical discussion you can refer to zraver's post.

    Iran would like nothing more than to see US in Iraq and Astan, weeding out their enemies and then leave to allow the Iranians to assert themselves there.
    Russian, Chinese and Indian interests in Iran are limited as of now.

    1. Iran doesn't have a capability to fire a "barrage of missiles".
    2. Israel doesn't have a capability to stop a "barrage of missiles".

    If Israel is able to involve US, than war may be feasible. No amount of stick will work with Iran if Russia, China, EU and India are dealing with them. :)
     
  13. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    I haven't seen any evidence to support the claimed fact. Many Palestinians support Hamas undoubtedly but do a majority or all, that you have not demonstrated.

    You are suggesting that all of Hamas's acts are supported by all of Palestine. This is not the case.
    OTOH fact Hamas had observed a ceasefire with Israel for over 20months.

    Israel is well within the rights to use whatever force is at its disposable to respond to attacks on its citizens or soil.
    But at the same time its Israel's prerogative if it wants peace or not.

    I am comparing motivations in voting for a particular party. Palestinians had to chose between Fatah which has failed to deliver, is corrupt, is a "western puppet", and Hamas.

    I didn't imply this. I am like many non muslims perplexed by the seeming dichotomy in the islamic world. Pakistan, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Iran all exhibit such.
    If Israel doesn't want peace with Hamas, its their wish. Hamas is only going to get stronger though.

    I would go one step ahead and say such indoctrination exists in most of the islamic world.

    The 2-state solution being endorsed by many, suggest that such is not the case. Govt of India, too believes that the Palestinians have a right to a state.
     
  14. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    STAY ON TOPIC PLEASE--> Hamas is not the Issue, the Issue is Iran and How it will be attacked or How it can be attacked!
     
  15. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    A Barrage of Missiles Iran cant fire, atleast now. But they got enough missiles to be a threat to Israel and stop it from attacking, I feel and atleast one or two, if gets thru the ABM, then we all know How Small Israel is and how concentrated it is!

    Iran is building up its missile stockpile, and they might not be that accurate. But we all know the havoc a Missile can cause if pointed against a populated city! These are not Scuds, and are better than them in all respects. The Missiles are a Deterrent in the current time frame. It will remain so, till the day Star Wars become fully operational!
     
  16. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    how many can they fire at once ?

    We all know that Iran has no ABM, how concentrated Tehran is, and that Israel has "nukes" :wink:

    how big ? how inaccurate ?

    Missiles are a deterrent ? I thought WMDs were. :s
     
  17. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    Firstly, lets keep nukes out of the equation, because it will only be possible if Iran uses one. But yes, Israel can Nuke Iran if a couple of Missiles fall on the main cities. Yes, Tehran is a population hub, but Tehran doesnt make up Iran! But Tel Aviv coupled with some other places Make up Israel!

    How many Missiles Iran has, well no one can telll, because they dont have RTI act in place I suppose ;)

    How accurate, well like I told, when pointed at a big place, accuracy has scope, but its not a tactical strike Iran will hint at, they will go for a Big kill.

    Iran is a highly unpredictable country, the Mullahs moves cant be calculated. I can vouch for this as I have studied about this and their Revolution in detail.

    Missiles are a detternt my friend. If Not what is stopping anyone from bombing them? Is it their SUPERIOR Air Force with those F18 beating indigenous fighters? Or is it the Basij? Or is it the Revolutionary Council? ;) Even Russia or China doesnt figure much in the equation, because we know, when US or Israel wants to bomb someone, they will! Be it Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Libya or who not! Yes, its the Missiles keeping away these forces at this moment in time. Please prove so otherwise, i would humbly accept it!
     
  18. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Dont forget the US in this whole thing. If the US decides it can/will live with a nuclear Iran, then the matter ends there whether Israel likes it or not. Sure a lot of money will be spent on ABMs but then thats how it will be.
    But if the US decides it cannot live with a nuclear Iran at all costs, then we cannot rule out another Iraq, provided the US thinks it can take the cost of lives and money that will be involved in such an operation. Without an all out attack, it will be very difficult to completely eliminate Iranian nuke program, given the fact that the Iranians know that it can be hit from above and therefore buried everything underground and heavily fortified it.
    If the US/Israel want to completely eliminate Iranian nukes/nuke program, then an invasion is probably a must.
     
  19. Auberon

    Auberon Regular Member

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  20. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    http://www.inss.org.il/upload/(FILE)1232450393.pdf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This claims J10 aircraft wasreceived by Iran from PRC in 07! Then S300s in 08! How true is that? I didnt read further!

    About Iranian missiles being not a threat, the other article says it will cause harm! Isnt that contradictory?

    "Iran's conventionally armed missile arsenal could do significant harm but would not pose an existential danger to Israel, two prominent Israeli defense analysts say in reports due for release tomorrow (see GSN, March 5)."

    And the people commenting on it are Israeli expers working on the Arrow! What can they say? that the Iranian missiles are lethal?

    About 90 missiles (which i dont trust, it maybe even 30, but the PDF file is all lies, especially the J10 and S300 part!), okay, even if they have 90. there are 35 targets they identified, and what if they send atleast 40 of them towards Tel Aviv? I dont know, we will have to wait and see!
     

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