Hate Bollywood for not making these war movies

AnantS

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There was this series on DD at some point of time. I am not sure they covered all PVCs.
True it was telecasted in late 80's - early 90's I think. I was alluding to same serial. It would be good to have it in modern avatar, covering more heroes. However please keep Ekta Kapoor and her ilk out of it! :)
 

Navnit Kundu

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True it was telecasted in late 80's - early 90's I think. I was alluding to same serial. It would be good to have it in modern avatar, covering more heroes. However please keep Ekta Kapoor and her ilk out of it! :)
You are talking about this one, I guess. This particular episode has Naseeruddin Shah in it, playing Abdul Hamid.


(This was before Naseer became a true blood jihadi like Amir and Hakla Khan)

By the way,

 
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AnantS

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^ correctamundo !
Find out common running thread among intellectual directors actors : FTII Pune or NSD :)
 

Mikesingh

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If we want to be respected, glorified and feared, let us stop reciting our "victories" over the puny Pakistan. India must not fight her next war inside her territory.
Have you heard of India's Cold Start doctrine? It involves the various branches of India's military conducting offensive operations deep into enemy territory as part of unified battle groups within 48 hours. And that translates to multiple deep thrusts 60 to 100 km into Pakistan. That's when the Pakis would employ their Naser battlefield tactical nukes to prevent further thrusts.

In other words they would be nuking their own country! A few Nasrs aren't going to be effective enough to stop our juggernaut across multiple fronts.

So, India will not be fighting the next war inside its territory. It will be well within Pakistan's!
 

Screambowl

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"Join RAW so that you can falsely frame nationalists like Purohit and coin exciting new terms like Hindu terror while doing absolutely nothing about jihadi terror. Join us now! offer valid till Hindu population lasts" - RAW
it is the only isntitute (most probably) which has only hindu / sikh population :p
 

Navnit Kundu

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Have you heard of India's Cold Start doctrine?
Have you heard that it is merely a fairytale? We haven't amassed even 10% of the equipment and war material required to execute the doctrine. Any armchair philosopher can cook up fancy doctrines. Acquiring the material is just one aspect, then there's training and mock drills to execute your plans, these are necessary to validate your doctrine and to serve as an overt deterrent to the enemy. This doctrine was cooked up more than 15 years ago but we still haven't inducted the requisite artillery regiments. We need land mobile artillery, and air mobile artillery. an order has recently been placed for Smasung K9 and M777. These systems will start arriving after 2018 and the last unit will arrive in 2015, after which our fancy doctrine can have some teeth. What were they doing for 15 years? By the time we induct all the armament required for our doctrine, the security ecosystem and the threat matrix will have already changed.

When the West threatened Russia, they rapidly came up with new doctrines, their military research and design departments rapidly came up with prototypes to suit their doctrine, their manufacturing sector stood up to the challenge of mass manufacturing the systems on time, their army underwent a rapid restructuring in their training and hierarchy to align themselves seamlessly with the new doctrine, they did their exercises and validated their doctrines on the ground, this is how they were able to outfox a larger enemy like the US in Ukraine and Syria. This is how winners are made, not by patting ourselves on our own backs. A doctrine is only successful if the people who envisage it have a perfect synchronization with those who manufacture the weapons and those who use the weapons. In our case, there is complete dissonance between these three entities, with each department doing whatever entertains its own vanity. It doesn't seem like our higher ups are taking this seriously either.

The simple fact is that if Cold Start were operational doctrine, we would have used it after 26/11. The reason we sat back like a bunch of eunuchs is because we had no response to Pakistan's rapidly evolving asymmetric doctrines.

Check this :

 

Bornubus

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Wrong on both counts!

Firstly, you're confused between geographical size and the size of the armed forces of both India and Pakistan. In 1965 the combat ratio was 1:1.2, with Pakistan having the advantage of attacking first.

Secondly, in 1962, the Indian army was totally ill prepared and had never fought a war since 1947. Troops from the deserts of Rajasthan were airlifted and deployed in high altitude areas without proper acclimatization, clothing or equipment. It was more of a screw-up at the political level with Krishna Menon calling the shots and a clueless Nehru who looked like a chicken flapping around in a pigsty. Adhocism was the order of the day.

Let the Chinese try it out today. They got clobbered in the Chola/Nathula incident in 1967 when they lost 400 of their PLA soldiers due to massive Indian retaliation that destroyed scores of their bunkers, pill boxes and gun positions in the skirmish. They even sued for a ceasefire as their casualty rates were becoming alarming.

And then there was the Somdorongchu incident in Arunachal in 1987 where the PLA was warned by then Indian Army chief, General Sundarjee to get the hell out of the vast areas they had encroached upon there or face a similar rout as they did at Nathula in 1967. The Chinese quietly withdrew without even a whimper!

Because they realized that they were up against a vastly different trained and equipped Indian Army unlike what they faced in 1962.


And then the 1971 war, when the Indian Army smashed through Pak defences in their race to Dhaka, resulting in the shameless surrender of 90,000 Pak Army personnel, from Generals down to sepoys!!

And Kargil too! Nuff said.
93000 POW also include civilians and women.
 

Mikesingh

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Have you heard that it is merely a fairytale? We haven't amassed even 10% of the equipment and war material required to execute the doctrine. Any armchair philosopher can cook up fancy doctrines. Acquiring the material is just one aspect, then there's training and mock drills to execute your plans, these are necessary to validate your doctrine and to serve as an overt deterrent to the enemy. This doctrine was cooked up more than 15 years ago but we still haven't inducted the requisite artillery regiments. We need land mobile artillery, and air mobile artillery. an order has recently been placed for Smasung K9 and M777. These systems will start arriving after 2018 and the last unit will arrive in 2015, after which our fancy doctrine can have some teeth. What were they doing for 15 years? By the time we induct all the armament required for our doctrine, the security ecosystem and the threat matrix will have already changed.

When the West threatened Russia, they rapidly came up with new doctrines, their military research and design departments rapidly came up with prototypes to suit their doctrine, their manufacturing sector stood up to the challenge of mass manufacturing the systems on time, their army underwent a rapid restructuring in their training and hierarchy to align themselves seamlessly with the new doctrine, they did their exercises and validated their doctrines on the ground, this is how they were able to outfox a larger enemy like the US in Ukraine and Syria. This is how winners are made, not by patting ourselves on our own backs. A doctrine is only successful if the people who envisage it have a perfect synchronization with those who manufacture the weapons and those who use the weapons. In our case, there is complete dissonance between these three entities, with each department doing whatever entertains its own vanity. It doesn't seem like our higher ups are taking this seriously either.

The simple fact is that if Cold Start were operational doctrine, we would have used it after 26/11. The reason we sat back like a bunch of eunuchs is because we had no response to Pakistan's rapidly evolving asymmetric doctrines.
In May 2011, India launched Operation Vijayee Bhava ("Be Victorious"), a defence exercise involving 50,000 troops in Bikaner and Suratgarh near the in order to boost the synergy between the various branches of the armed forces.

The main objective of the operation was to cut down the mobilisation time of the military, which took 27 days to mobilise during Op Parakram. The Indian Army confirmed that the exercise was successful, reducing mobilisation time drastically to 48 hours.

India has been constructing massive new airfields and bases, a wide rail and road communication network has been laid down to facilitate swift mobilisation, new logistic installations have been set up close to Pakistan’s borders to support the offensives and the peacetime locations of some of the formations are what they used to be in times of crisis.

In July 2011, India tested the Prahar, a new solid-fuel tactical ballistic missile with a range of 150 km designed to provide invading Indian Army battle groups with lethal fire support.

The Indian Army had also conducted its largest war game in the last two decades, titled Operation Sudarshan Shakti under HQ Southern Command, to re-validate its Cold Start doctrine. The desert exercise was based on the Integrated Theater Battle concept, where various wings participated successfully in a single cohesive format during war.

The focus of Sudarshan Shakti was to practice synergy and integration between ground and air forces. Nearly 60,000 troops and 500 armoured vehicles, including T-72, T-90 and Arjun MBTs, carried out simulated deep thrusts, with support from the artillery including missile regiments and the IAF. The third prong of the TRIAD is also now ready with the introduction of SSBNs like the Arihant which has added a further dimension to Pakistan's threat perceptions and is a huge deterrent against using their tactical nukes against these Integrated Battle Groups.

The Indian Army has also tested newly inducted radars, UAVs, surveillance systems, precision guided bombs, missiles, space-based assets and real-time data-sharing between elements in line with the doctrine.

Call it what you may - Cold Start, pre-emptive counter attack, deep thrust, blitzkrieg or pro-active strategy - the basic doctrine is the same. In other words, strike deep into Pakistan by multiple self contained integrated battle groups, over a very wide area simultaneously within the shortest possible time in order to unbalance the enemy.

Holding formations in the meanwhile would be geared to counter any enemy ripostes into Indian territory.

You would have understood the concept better if you had taken part in war games!
 

Navnit Kundu

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it is the only isntitute (most probably) which has only hindu / sikh population :p
That is precisely why I made the comment. Being a Hindu operative belies the anti-Hindu policies that they help sustain. Hindus are probably the worst enemies of other Hindus. That is how all invaders, bar none, were able to rule over us for so many centuries. Now, we might not know the tactical covert missions that they undertake but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the pudding is the overall political scenario in India, which wouldn't have been possible without the support of intel agencies. Even a child knows that no colonial power relinquishes power abruptly when they leave a colony. They usually appoint a puppet who will be loyal to them, in order to extend their rule over their former colony by proxy. Now, Nehru was to India what Ashraf Ghani is to Afghanistan, they're both foreign moles, only a naive dhindu will deny that obvious fact. And to allow such a puppet to not only dig his heels for so long but to go one step ahead and allow him to create his own dynasty is the worst crime which I blame the contemporary intel agencies for (whatever name they might have been known at that time). On top of that, they allowed Vatican to plant their Italian bar dancer mole into Indian political system by strategically marrying her into the Gandhi family to wrest indirect control. Were were your brave Hindu boys then?

In contrast to that, see how Myanmar has behaved. They were liberated from British rule almost the same time around as India. Brits had planted Aung San Suu Kyi's father as their puppet/sepoy in Myanmar, but the nationalists promptly assassinated that mole. The moment Aung San Suu Kyi married a foreigner, Myanmar passed a law barring any person married to foreign national from wielding any political office in Myanmar. This move was clearly targeted at keeping Aung San Suu Kyi away from the throne. The Burmese nationalists realized early on the game plan of the evangelist cartel. They plant moles in ruling families and try to rule nations by proxy. One must give credit to Burmese nationalists for showing wisdom and grit to not conflate national interests with the personal interests of the ruling elite, unfortunately, our intel agencies lacked. So, don't tell me about the miracles of RAW. They might have undertaken daring tactical operations, but they have been a political failure in more ways than one as is evident from the second class status of Hindus in a country which is 80% Hindus. We are expected to obey the laws, pay our taxes but we are not allowed to have political autonomy. Our temples are under GOI control while jihadi and evangelical centers are given autonomy. We have to foot the bill for horrendous schemes like RTE but we are not good enough to have a political voice. God forbid if we start speaking up then we are called Hindutva terrorists. The foremost mission of any intel agency is to shape the political environment to suit their citizens. Is the progress your RAW has made? What value did our intel add to our body politic which has benefited us decisively? what status quo have they managed to changed? they have only kept the status quo imposed by the colonial masters intact. Even your lord Ajit Doval admits this as a fact. Listen here :

 

Bornubus

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Right! 23000 'civilians'. Out of which, how many were ISI, Military Intelligence, etc? No one really knows!! :cool3:
You have any source of these numbers ?

Pakis had 2 Divisions of regular troops.

According to Sharmila Bose the total no. of Pak regular Army was 35,000 ~ excluding Paramilitary.
 

Navnit Kundu

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In May 2011, India launched Operation Vijayee Bhava
Why 2011? an excercise is going on right now as we speak. http://ddinews.gov.in/National/National - Headlines/Pages/Shatrujeet.aspx

It has all the same keywords 'integrated battle groups', 'short incursions', basically colloquial terms for Cold Start. Doesn't change anything. The main piece of the puzzle is still missing, that is artillery. Every year we conduct exercises of some sort and label it Cold Start, pat ourselves on the back, the government posts pictures which overenthusiastic fanboys lap up and every one lives happily ever after, conveniently forgetting that all the major pieces of the doctrine are missing. Every time our armored regiments do a maneuver practice, the media starts calling it Cold Start, then teens with half baked knowledge and full baked ignorance start parroting those terminologies on online forums.

You would have understood the concept better if you had taken part in war games!
Did you take part in it?

This is an online discussion forum, therefore by its very nature everyone on the internet is a keyboard warrior. No point trying to use that feeble argument to put down other opinions to compensate for your lack of intellect. If you didn't take part in the exercises either then it doesn't make you any better than any other forum member. If you intend to use a comeback at least use something which puts you in a favorable position relative to your detractors. :rofl:
 
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Mikesingh

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Did you take part in it?
Yes! Not one, but many! :cool1: That's why I asked. Have you? But whether you have or not, I would advise you to consider taking back your words, 'lack of intellect'. This hoity toity attitude makes you look silly.
 

Navnit Kundu

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Yes! Not one, but many! :cool1: That's why I asked. Have you? But whether you have or not, I would advise you to consider taking back your words, 'lack of intellect'. This hoity toity attitude makes you look silly.
The exercise is going on right now (again, without artillery), as we speak. Are you chatting on online forums in the middle of a military exercise? can you tell us which airborne artillery units are being used? that's right we have none, since we didn't acquire any. Talk about being silly :rofl:

My point and @DingDong's was simple, 'patting ourselves on the back' is not a doctrine, it's an ailment. Ever since the famed doctrine has been announced we have been doing many exercises but the doctrine has no teeth without artillery. It was an objective and dispassionate comment there was no need for you to turn it into an ego battle. Try not to conflate any critique of the nation's (lack of) war fighting capabilities as an evaluation of your personal worth as an individual. Please get some self respect.

Check the critique of the sluggish military and unimaginative political elite by Bharat Karnad and the statements made by the military men on this panel, they exude the same complacent sense of accomplishment, despite having not been able to alter the status quo in the subcontinent.

 
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Screambowl

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That is precisely why I made the comment. Being a Hindu operative belies the anti-Hindu policies that they help sustain. Hindus are probably the worst enemies of other Hindus. That is how all invaders, bar none, were able to rule over us for so many centuries. Now, we might not know the tactical covert missions that they undertake but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the pudding is the overall political scenario in India, which wouldn't have been possible without the support of intel agencies. Even a child knows that no colonial power relinquishes power abruptly when they leave a colony. They usually appoint a puppet who will be loyal to them, in order to extend their rule over their former colony by proxy. Now, Nehru was to India what Ashraf Ghani is to Afghanistan, they're both foreign moles, only a naive dhindu will deny that obvious fact. And to allow such a puppet to not only dig his heels for so long but to go one step ahead and allow him to create his own dynasty is the worst crime which I blame the contemporary intel agencies for (whatever name they might have been known at that time). On top of that, they allowed Vatican to plant their Italian bar dancer mole into Indian political system by strategically marrying her into the Gandhi family to wrest indirect control. Were were your brave Hindu boys then?

In contrast to that, see how Myanmar has behaved. They were liberated from British rule almost the same time around as India. Brits had planted Aung San Suu Kyi's father as their puppet/sepoy in Myanmar, but the nationalists promptly assassinated that mole. The moment Aung San Suu Kyi married a foreigner, Myanmar passed a law barring any person married to foreign national from wielding any political office in Myanmar. This move was clearly targeted at keeping Aung San Suu Kyi away from the throne. The Burmese nationalists realized early on the game plan of the evangelist cartel. They plant moles in ruling families and try to rule nations by proxy. One must give credit to Burmese nationalists for showing wisdom and grit to not conflate national interests with the personal interests of the ruling elite, unfortunately, our intel agencies lacked. So, don't tell me about the miracles of RAW. They might have undertaken daring tactical operations, but they have been a political failure in more ways than one as is evident from the second class status of Hindus in a country which is 80% Hindus. We are expected to obey the laws, pay our taxes but we are not allowed to have political autonomy. Our temples are under GOI control while jihadi and evangelical centers are given autonomy. We have to foot the bill for horrendous schemes like RTE but we are not good enough to have a political voice. God forbid if we start speaking up then we are called Hindutva terrorists. The foremost mission of any intel agency is to shape the political environment to suit their citizens. Is the progress your RAW has made? What value did our intel add to our body politic which has benefited us decisively? what status quo have they managed to changed? they have only kept the status quo imposed by the colonial masters intact. Even your lord Ajit Doval admits this as a fact. Listen here :


You cannot compare myanmar with India. India is a multi lingual and full of diversity. The only thing which binds India is the culture out of Sanatan Dharma.

We have greater population and greater area. More complex democratic structure of system ( not social but political democracy) hence tough to manipulate.

Both BJP and Congress depend on funds from industrialist therefore the leadership happens to shake somewhere.

The way many insurgencies have been defeated in most parts of the country by the people. The people will defeat the moles too.

There is nothing new and every one knows the platform on which congress stays.
 

Navnit Kundu

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You cannot compare myanmar with India. India is a multi lingual and full of diversity.
It became 'full of diversity' because Dhimmis with low expectations allowed it to. What was the relative demographic of Indic faiths compared to Abrahamic faiths at the time of partition? who allowed it to spiral out of control to where it is now?

You are the same person who was claiming the other day that the death of Hindus at the hands of invaders was a well deserved one and 'their own mistake' because they didn't fight back. Your present statement is in direct contradiction of your previous one. One one side you imply that people are at fault if they don't fight against an adversarial status quo and now you are saying that people should simply accept the self-imposed hardships voluntarily without trying to change the status quo.

Yeh diversity ka drama kisne shuru kiya? As if the minority coddling done by Nehru wasn't good enough, the word secularism itself was inserted into the constitution during emergency by Indira, so don't make it look like it is something natural to us. It was imposed on us by the invaders and later bolstered with political sanction from the ruling elite. Linguistic and ethnic diversity is another thing but political diversity cannot be tolerated, especially if the core of that political idea states that all non-believers are worth of being killed. Statements like yours soften the ground for a harder ideological invasion. It's small ideological compromises like these which we voluntarily make which allow the invaders to put their step in the door to pave the path for a greater onslaught. Hindus have been dying at the swords of invaders for centuries, abhi tak ye 'diversity' wali beemari utri nahi kya tumhari?

One thing I agree with you, the Burmese cannot be compared to us. The peaceful seculars called Rohingya raped and mutilated one Buddhist girl, in retaliation the Burmese cleansed 5 districts of these parasites. They didn't sit and talk about diversity. If diversity means accepting our people being mutilated then it's better to not be so broad minded. We are only paper tigers with plastic teeth. We can only sit and give contradictory comments about diversity, covert ops and what not, to sound like a kewl dood. It is only because of the unapologetic grit of the Burmese Buddhists that Myanmar stands today as a proud Buddhist nation without feeling any pressure to call itself secular/diverse, out of any misplaced sense of morality.

It is only Dhimmis who speak of diversity despite knowing very well that India is the last and only bastion of Hinduism alive today. If this safe house collapses, Hindus all over the world, including the diaspora will come under a viscous onslaught, both ideological and physical. It will be a free for all. Instead of acting in the interest of self-preservation, it is only Hindus who can be expected to speak of 'diversity' like a nihilistic tribe on a mission to annihilate itself. Go to Saudi or Vatican and ask them to set up a small temple as a testament to their commitment to this value system of 'diversity' which they demand Hindus to abide by and which you hold so dear. They will shove so many dildos of so much diversity up your butthole that you will even forget this word called diversity. It is only Dhimmis who keep believing in it like it's some godsend. No other ethnic, religious, political or civilizational group believes in it.
 
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