Gun Control laws in America - Debate

rock127

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Re: Gunman James Holmes kills 12, wounds 53 at Dark Knight Screening

James Eagan Holmes

On 22 May 2012, Holmes purchased his first weapon, a Glock pistol, at a Gander Mountain shop in Aurora, and six days later a shotgun at a Bass Pro Shops in Denver. The AR-15 and the second Glock pistol followed on June 7 and July 6 respectively. All the weapons were purchased legally. In the four months before the shooting Holmes also bought 3000 rounds of ammunitions for the pistols, 3000 rounds for the AR-15, and 350 shells for the shotgun over the internet.On July 2, he placed an order for a combat vest, magazine holders and a knife at an online retailer.

:shocked::shocked:
 

Aayush

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Re: Gunman James Holmes kills 12, wounds 53 at Dark Knight Screening

It really baffles me to think about why he did such a horrific thing.He was a very good student(described as one of the brightest minds in Science) ,had a normal life...
 

rock127

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Re: Gunman James Holmes kills 12, wounds 53 at Dark Knight Screening

It really baffles me to think about why he did such a horrific thing.He was a very good student(described as one of the brightest minds in Science) ,had a normal life...
What amazes me is that it's so easy for such a young guy to purchase online about 6,500 rounds of bullets,assault rifle,shotgun,pistol and combat vest as well and it didn't get in the notice of the US security agencies. Seems like a vegetable shopping.

These shooting incidents by young generation seems to be common in US now where there are more guns than people itself.
 

pmaitra

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The victims in the movie theatre were legally prevented from carrying guns on their person. Had it been otherwise, we might have had less casualties.
 

rock127

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In case you still have any doubts regarding the excellent points made by Virendra and Spikey.


The poor victims were legally un-armed in keeping with the law of the land that prevents lawful firearm owners from carrying their licensed weapons on their person inside private establishments. These citizens had also put their faith in the security provided by the private establishment and also in the police. May I ask you why were they unable to save the ones that died ?


Their lives were endangered, by a solitary psycho who asked all of us sane law abiding people through their actions to shove our laws.
You may not want to stand up to such a scumbag, but I will.Such scumbags don't listen to reason, they only understand the language of deadly force.
It's sad... specially the small girl Veronica.
 

rock127

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Re: Colorado Massacre - Time for Gun Control?

He is a terrorist for sure.


It's other thing that he didn't kill on the basis of religion and that puts him in the category of mentally ill criminal so these posters hold no value and distracting by comparing Islamic militants with this mental criminal.
 

Virendra

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If I were Arab and killing another Arab the shooting would still be called Murder.
If I were Black and killing another Black, I would still be called a Thug.
If I were White and killing another White, the shooting would still be called Murder.

Now mix them back as stated in the poster .. white killing black or arab killing white .
Results are same, poeple getting killed. But the purpose is different in each case and there is presence or absence of a motivating doctrine that drives violence in different cases.
That poster is an over generalization.

By the way I still don't know properly why he killed? What drove him to kill. I know that he didn't have a social life and was introvert. But that doesn't explain this behavior.

Regards,
Virendra
 

rock127

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If I were Arab and killing another Arab the shooting would still be called Murder.
If I were Black and killing another Black, I would still be called a Thug.
If I were White and killing another White, the shooting would still be called Murder.


Now mix them back as stated in the poster .. white killing black or arab killing white .
Results are same, poeple getting killed. But the purpose is different in each case and there is presence or absence of a motivating doctrine that drives violence in different cases.
That poster is an over generalization.

By the way I still don't know properly why he killed? What drove him to kill. I know that he didn't have a social life and was introvert. But that doesn't explain this behavior.

Regards,
Virendra
These lines are used by many Islamic guys who wants to distract and play "victims" but do not admit that they do it for religion.

The poster is wrong generalization.
 

hit&run

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Why do you think he chose a movie theatre in the first place? Because guns are not allowed inside. We have heard about shooting in schools, universities and now a movie theatre. All these places are no weapon zones. If he really wanted a confrontation, he would have done a shootout in the streets. He would have been gunned down in a matter of minutes by the people.

Whether the casualties could have been lesser or not is debatable. Mumbai 26/11 would not have even occurred in the first place. Say you are an assailant with an AK-47 out to attack the public who are armed with handguns. They probably outgun you in the ratio 1:200. Would you still like to carry out the attack with as much zeal?
??

You are contradicting yourself. People who plan to kill others do take such things in account so there is no need to sketch a scenario of street gun fights.

Oh ! you are thanked by few.

People are not allowed to carry guns inside 5 star hotel either.

You are neither arms expert nor security expert, I bet you haven't ever operated a gun.

People who carry guns are not trained to fight terrorists and hell no they should even try to kill them. People carrying guns on streets trying to gun down a determined maniac or terrorist will end up killing more people.
 

Virendra

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People are not allowed to carry guns inside 5 star hotel either.
Yes and your point is? Do you want me to flash some hotel homicides/shootouts? It won't be a problem, there are plenty.

You are neither arms expert nor security expert, I bet you haven't ever operated a gun.
You mean I can also ask like if you haven't been a politician or defense professional, what are you doing discussing both of them at DFI here?

People who carry guns are not trained to fight terrorists and hell no they should even try to kill them. People carrying guns on streets trying to gun down a determined maniac or terrorist will end up killing more people.
And you know this how?
People only need to know the safe and responsible use of the fire-arm for defense. They don't need to go after the terrorist. But if he comes at them they should be able to make it out alive.
You seem to be convinced that a civilian cannot use a fire-arm effectively and responsibly. Your or my conjectures do not justify or incriminate the field action. The ground circumstances of the action and the laws of the land do.

Can you read this out and let me know what you understand from it about your responsibilities and what you think is needed to discharge such responsibilities properly?

IPC section 96 -- Nothing is an offense which is done in the exercise of the right of private defense.
This right can be exercised if there is no sufficient time for recourse to public authorities.

IPC section 97 -- Every bonafide citizen has the right (subject to the restrictions contained in section 99):
(1) to protect one's own body, and the body of any other person, against any offenses affecting the human body.
(2) To protect one's property or of any other person, whether moveable or immoveable, in case of theft, robbery, mischief or criminal trespass, or an attempt to do so.

IPC section 98 -- When an act, which would otherwise be a certain offense, is not that offense, by reason of the youth, the want of maturity of understanding, the unsoundness of mind or the intoxication of the person doing that act, or by reason of any misconception on the part of that person, every person has the same right of private defence against that act which he would have if the act were that offence.

IPC section 99 -- There is no right of private defence against an act which does not reasonable cause the apprehension of death or of grievous hurt. There is no right of private defence in cases in which there is time to have recourse to the protection of the public authorities.
"Where there is an element of invasion or aggression on the property by a person who has right to possession, then there is obviously no room to have recourse to the public authorities and the accused has the undoubted right to resist the attack and use even force if necessary"; ~ Puran Singh v. State of Punjab, 1975 Cr LJ 1479 SC

IPC section 100 -- The right of private defence of the body extends to the voluntary causing of death or of any other harm to the assailant, if the offence which occasions the exercise of the right be of any of the descriptions hereinafter enumerated, namely:—
First.— Such an assault as may reasonably cause the apprehension that death will otherwise be the consequence of such assault;
Secondly.—Such an assault as may reasonably cause the apprehen-sion that grievous hurt will otherwise be the consequence of such assault;
Thirdly.— An assault with the intention of committing rape;
Fourthly.—An assault with the intention of gratifying unnatural lust;
Fifthly.— An assault with the intention of kidnapping or abduct-ing;
Sixthly.— An assault with the intention of wrongfully confining a person, under circumstances which may reasonably cause him to apprehend that he will be unable to have recourse to the public authorities for his release

IPC section 101 -- If the offense be not of any of the descriptions enumerated in the last preceding section, the right of private defence of the body does not extend to the voluntary causing of death to the assailant, but does extend, under the restrictions mentioned in Section 99, to the voluntary causing to the assailant of any harm other than death.

IPC section 102 -- The right of private defence of the body commences as soon as a reasonable apprehension of danger to the body arises from an attempt or threat to commit the offence though the offence may not have been committed; and it continues as long as such apprehension of danger to the body continues.

IPC section 103 -- The right of private defence of property extends, under the restrictions mentioned in section 99, to the voluntary causing of death or of any other harm to the wrong-doer, if the offence, the committing of which, or the attempting to commit which, occasions the exercise of the right, be an offence of any of the descriptions hereinafter enumerated, namely:—
First.— Robbery;
Secondly.—House-breaking by night;
Thirdly.— Mischief by fire committed on any building, tent or vessel, which building, tent or vessel is used as a human dwell-ing, or as a place for the custody of property;
Fourthly.—Theft, mischief, or house-trespass, under such circum-stances as may reasonably cause apprehension that death or griev-ous hurt will be the consequence, if such right of private de-fence is not exercised.

IPC section 104 -- If the offence , the committing of which, or the attempting to commit which, occasions the exercise of the right of private defence, be theft, mischief, or criminal trespass, not of any of the descriptions enumerated in the last preceding section, that right does not extend to the voluntary causing of death, but does extend, subject to the restrictions mentioned in section 99, to the voluntary causing to the wrong -doer of any harm other than death.

IPC section 105 -- he Right of private defence of property commences when a reasonable apprehension of danger to the property commences.
The right of private defence of property against theft continues till the offender has effected his retreat with the property or either the assistance of the public authorities is obtained, or the property has been recovered.
The right of private defence of property against robbery continues as long as the offender causes or attempts to cause to any person death or hurt or wrongful restraint of as long as the fear of instant death or of instant hurt or of instant personal restraint continues.
The right of private defence of property against criminal trespass or mischief continues as long as the offender continues in the commission of criminal trespass or mischief.
The right of private defence of property against house-breaking by night continues as long as the house-trespass which has been begun by such house-breaking continues.

IPC section 106 -- If in the exercise of the right of private defense against an assault which reasonably causes the apprehension of death, the defender be so situated that he cannot effectually exercise that right without risk of harm to an innocent person his right or private defense extends to the running of that risk.
Illustration
A is attacked by a mob who attempt to murder him. He cannot effectually exercise his right of private defence without firing on the mob, and he cannot fire without risk of harming young children who are mingled with the mob. A commits no offense if by so firing he harms any of the children.

So you see the right of private defense/self defense is codified in Sections 96-106 IPC.
A gun is merely a tool, a means of exercising the right to self defense/private defense. It seems that first the people have to be convinced of their rights and of exercising them for their protection. Talking about Guns before that is unfortunately a taboo :rolleyes:

Regards,
Virendra
 
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pmaitra

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Why Indians should be allowed to own guns:

 
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hit&run

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Yes and your point is? Do you want me to flash some hotel homicides/shootouts? It won't be a problem, there are plenty.
If you do not know from where the discussion is coming then you do not jump into it.

The argument was if Indians were having guns then 26/11 causalities were to be less or terrorist could have been killed by ordinary citizens. But people are not allowed to dine in with weapons in hotels; same was the case in that theatre.

Liberal gun laws are not able to save people in many situations.

The examples you will flash should be flashed for detailed discussion without throwing 'do you want me' or 'not want me'.

I may agree with someone who says that these hotels were supposed to have security guards carrying weapons. Such gun fights may have been contained with least collateral damage in a situation like 26/11 or this theatre.

You mean I can also ask like if you haven't been a politician or defense professional, what are you doing discussing both of them at DFI here?
Since you are not sure about my point therefore rest of the discussion is going to be futile. Like I have now explained you again so you can come up with argument with proper drafting of your sentence, please.

However I can see from your haste that you want to make some point quite bluntly calling me out if I know about guns and personal defence, so let me tell you I have food in my fridge older than many who come and preach liberal gun law in India, in isolation. I have been a member of a gun club for last three years. I have been taking professional training how to keep and use gun because of mandatory Gun laws of the land under strict watch and higher stakes (my citizenship, heavy fines sucking fortune and no job etc.) pledged before the Police/Law. I was once Black belt in Taekwondo and am good rescue swimmer with senior citizen first aid certificate apart from my specialized qualification in the health Science field. I know how to defend and have professional psychological training/knowledge to cope with post assault repercussions/symptoms.

People only need to know the safe and responsible use of the fire-arm for defense. They don't need to go after the terrorist. But if he comes at them they should be able to make it out alive.
You do not need to have a gun to make it out alive, rather you will be painted with more bullets having one, trying to use or point during coordinated attack like 26/11, using the same in a dark theatre or mall is a big no no too.

You are trying to sketch new shoddy scenarios. My point again and I will ask you if you have ever used a gun? If yes or no, explain safe and responsible way of using gun. I have seen people pissing in pants when during hunting they piss off wild (herbivorous) animals and running to save their lives leaving guns or using all their rounds on angry ducks, here you are talking about facing a Jihadi.

You seem to be convinced that a civilian cannot use a fire-arm effectively and responsibly.
There is no such thing in India which prepares ordinary Indians about use of gun and its science. My illiterate bravado first cousin own a licence and gun for last two year, the d1ck has bullied her wife 3 times with his gun. No one is complaining about it at all. I mean he and the society around him are ignorant.


Your or my conjectures do not justify or incriminate the field action. The ground circumstances of the action and the laws of the land do.
Can you read this out and let me know what you understand from it about your responsibilities and what you think is needed to discharge such responsibilities properly?

IPC section 96 -- Nothing is an offense which is done in the exercise of the right of private defence.
This right can be exercised if there is no sufficient time for recourse to public authorities.

IPC section 97 -- Every bonafide citizen has the right (subject to the restrictions contained in section 99):
(1) to protect one's own body, and the body of any other person, against any offenses affecting the human body.
(2) To protect one's property or of any other person, whether moveable or immoveable, in case of theft, robbery, mischief or criminal trespass, or an attempt to do so.

IPC section 98 -- When an act, which would otherwise be a certain offense, is not that offense, by reason of the youth, the want of maturity of understanding, the unsoundness of mind or the intoxication of the person doing that act, or by reason of any misconception on the part of that person, every person has the same right of private defence against that act which he would have if the act were that offence.

IPC section 99 -- There is no right of private defence against an act which does not reasonable cause the apprehension of death or of grievous hurt. There is no right of private defence in cases in which there is time to have recourse to the protection of the public authorities.
"Where there is an element of invasion or aggression on the property by a person who has right to possession, then there is obviously no room to have recourse to the public authorities and the accused has the undoubted right to resist the attack and use even force if necessary"; ~ Puran Singh v. State of Punjab, 1975 Cr LJ 1479 SC

IPC section 100 -- The right of private defence of the body extends to the voluntary causing of death or of any other harm to the assailant, if the offence which occasions the exercise of the right be of any of the descriptions hereinafter enumerated, namely:—
First.— Such an assault as may reasonably cause the apprehension that death will otherwise be the consequence of such assault;
Secondly.—Such an assault as may reasonably cause the apprehen-sion that grievous hurt will otherwise be the consequence of such assault;
Thirdly.— An assault with the intention of committing rape;
Fourthly.—An assault with the intention of gratifying unnatural lust;
Fifthly.— An assault with the intention of kidnapping or abduct-ing;
Sixthly.— An assault with the intention of wrongfully confining a person, under circumstances which may reasonably cause him to apprehend that he will be unable to have recourse to the public authorities for his release

IPC section 101 -- If the offense be not of any of the descriptions enumerated in the last preceding section, the right of private defence of the body does not extend to the voluntary causing of death to the assailant, but does extend, under the restrictions mentioned in Section 99, to the voluntary causing to the assailant of any harm other than death.

IPC section 102 -- The right of private defence of the body commences as soon as a reasonable apprehension of danger to the body arises from an attempt or threat to commit the offence though the offence may not have been committed; and it continues as long as such apprehension of danger to the body continues.

IPC section 103 -- The right of private defence of property extends, under the restrictions mentioned in section 99, to the voluntary causing of death or of any other harm to the wrong-doer, if the offence, the committing of which, or the attempting to commit which, occasions the exercise of the right, be an offence of any of the descriptions hereinafter enumerated, namely:—
First.— Robbery;
Secondly.—House-breaking by night;
Thirdly.— Mischief by fire committed on any building, tent or vessel, which building, tent or vessel is used as a human dwell-ing, or as a place for the custody of property;
Fourthly.—Theft, mischief, or house-trespass, under such circum-stances as may reasonably cause apprehension that death or griev-ous hurt will be the consequence, if such right of private de-fence is not exercised.

IPC section 104 -- If the offence , the committing of which, or the attempting to commit which, occasions the exercise of the right of private defence, be theft, mischief, or criminal trespass, not of any of the descriptions enumerated in the last preceding section, that right does not extend to the voluntary causing of death, but does extend, subject to the restrictions mentioned in section 99, to the voluntary causing to the wrong -doer of any harm other than death.

IPC section 105 -- he Right of private defence of property commences when a reasonable apprehension of danger to the property commences.
The right of private defence of property against theft continues till the offender has effected his retreat with the property or either the assistance of the public authorities is obtained, or the property has been recovered.
The right of private defence of property against robbery continues as long as the offender causes or attempts to cause to any person death or hurt or wrongful restraint of as long as the fear of instant death or of instant hurt or of instant personal restraint continues.
The right of private defence of property against criminal trespass or mischief continues as long as the offender continues in the commission of criminal trespass or mischief.
The right of private defence of property against house-breaking by night continues as long as the house-trespass which has been begun by such house-breaking continues.

IPC section 106 -- If in the exercise of the right of private defense against an assault which reasonably causes the apprehension of death, the defender be so situated that he cannot effectually exercise that right without risk of harm to an innocent person his right or private defense extends to the running of that risk.
Illustration
A is attacked by a mob who attempt to murder him. He cannot effectually exercise his right of private defence without firing on the mob, and he cannot fire without risk of harming young children who are mingled with the mob. A commits no offense if by so firing he harms any of the children.

So you see the right of private defense/self defense is codified in Sections 96-106 IPC.
A gun is merely a tool, a means of exercising the right to self defense/private defense. It seems that first the people have to be convinced of their rights and of exercising them for their protection. Talking about Guns before that is unfortunately a taboo :rolleyes:
It's just a statue law like any other law of India. It's easier for someone to pull it out using Internet for argument sake only.

There is one group of people who come to know about these details when their ass is caught in the clutches of law, when their solicitor explains them how they have been ----ed now. The other group misuse these laws.

So the point is, even I made in a previous discussion somewhere at DFI and I have said it clearly that the law enforcement agencies have to be honest and scientifically equipped when writing a report about a person who used his gun.

Also India has to bring down the disparity between poor and rich first to own gun laws like USA. I would hate a poverty ridden desperate person having easy access to gun more, than a rich bastard having the same.

Citizens cannot be combatants by just having a gun, without training; which demands money and time spent with seasoned professionals. I would rather hide and run away and wait for police to come and rescue me than trusting Virendra carrying gun, as he would save me by putting himself on the line, Plain stupid.

This is what Americans are told to do if they can, irrespective of knowing people may be carrying guns for self-defence. They use this quote during training for such scenarios 'No Heroism'.

For the scenario you were trying to sketch i.e. if the encounter is unavoidable and you have a gun then Americans are more trained to defend and legally safe knowing their judiciary and the law-enforcement will be complementing their effort of defence than Indians using gun having no training at all with uncertainty whether the law of the land will do justice or not.

Thanks
 
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Virendra

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If you do not know from where the discussion is coming then you do not jump into it.
I know where it is coming from and am fine by it if you want to talk about 26-11 like Jihadi scenarios.

Liberal gun laws are not able to save people in many situations.
Law would not save or kill anyone. The means of defense used and reaction of victim and assailant determines how many lives are saved or lost. There are n number of scenarios where rookies fanboys lay hands on reckles parents guns and cause mayhem. There are n number of scenarios where one armed civilian's timely response avoids a bigger incident.
Our attention focuses of those once in a while incidents because of Guns while we forget how many are avoided exactly because of an armed citizenry. Because absence of bad news doesn't make headline in papers or TV.

The examples you will flash should be flashed for detailed discussion without throwing 'do you want me' or 'not want me'.
Agreed.

I may agree with someone who says that these hotels were supposed to have security guards carrying weapons. Such gun fights may have been contained with least collateral damage in a situation like 26/11 or this theatre.
And what after the guards are down or have fled? Now that we're talking about 26/11 I hope you know what happened at CST. Cops armed with 303 rifles ducked for cover and refused to fire while the terrorists were spraying bullets all around. I'm not blaming the cop alone but am pointing to the situation and its consequences.

However I can see from your haste that you want to make some point quite bluntly calling me out if I know about guns and personal defence, so let me tell you ...
Hey who was the one to bluntly say "I bet you haven't ever operated a gun"? I didn't even say anything blunt and you're already blaming me. Pot calling the kettle black?

You do not need to have a gun to make it out alive, rather you will be painted with more bullets having one, trying to use or point during coordinated attack like 26/11, using the same in a dark theatre or mall is a big no no too.
Yeah I would need the terrorist's mercy and good amount of luck. Or better I ask the 163 dead victims of 26/11 how they feel about not making it out alive. Probably they will give a good idea.
I'm not talking about chest thumping ape wars with a jihadi. If escape is an option I'd take it. I don't want to fire fight with a better trained jihadi just because I'm armed and have seen the Rambo movie.
Being aggressive is not our job. That is security forces job. Our job is to do whatever we can to save our lives. So let me say again - its all about the entities involved, the scenario, and its manifestation.
What about when you're pinned down without the time or means of escape? What about when he is directly shooting at you to kill you? Would a Gun in your hand make a difference? Would you atleast be able to try not just stand there and wait for him to make thorough blood popping tunnels in your body?

You are trying to sketch new shoddy scenarios. My point again and I will ask you if you have ever used a gun?
Yes I have and No I didn't piss in my pants as you wrote below for someone.
If yes or no, explain safe and responsible way of using gun.
Can't do that in case of a No, can I ? :D But its a Yes so will go ahead.
to be aware of your fire-arm and its action.
to keep the fire-arm clean.
to keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you're ready to fire.
to not point the fire-arm in the direction where you don't want to destroy anything.
to be mindful of what is around & behind your target.
to never assume that the fire-arm is empty. Check and double check.
to never leave the fire-arm and its ammo un-attended if it is in reach of kids or others who aren't trained & trusted.
to never display your fire-arm unncessarily, causing impulses/doubts and un-nerved minds around.
to never carry the fire-arm to place where it is not allowed.
Lastly, every person has a different comfort level with Guns and will somewhat tweak his method of carry and use accordingly. For example- there are people who carry but with an empty chamber and there are others who carry with a loaded chamber.

I have seen people pissing in pants when during hunting they piss off wild (herbivorous) animals and running to save their lives leaving guns or using all their rounds on angry ducks, here you are talking about facing a Jihadi.
As said above, I am not going to be King Kong with an armed jihadi if there are any means of escape. But if there aren't any means of stall/escape, I'd like my means of self-defense please.

There is no such thing in India which prepares ordinary Indians about use of gun and its science. My illiterate bravado first cousin own a licence and gun for last two year, the d1ck has bullied her wife 3 times with his gun. No one is complaining about it at all. I mean he and the society around him are ignorant.
I am aware that the system isn't very helpful and doesn't offer a lot; which again is an issue with the system and not the people. However the process of licensing is a lot more rigorous in India as compared to US. I've no issues with it as long as a genuine case willing to learn and abide by, is being accommodated. But that doesn't happen a lot.
Anyway, as far as preparation and training is concerned. There are shooting ranges for the ones who're willing to step out and learn. Then there are occasional training programmes for civilians carried out by Police departments also. Bottomline - a man having the intent and will to learn proper use of Guns has his options and will eventually get his way; while the whinners will keep talking and talking.

It's just a statue law like any other law of India. It's easier for someone to pull it out using Internet for argument sake only.
You talk about law coming to bite our ass and then gloss over those IPC sections? Who is contradicting?

There is one group of people who come to know about these details when their ass is caught in the clutches of law
If someone owned and used a legal/illegal gun without reading the book first, they are the biggest fools of the party.

The other group misuse these laws.
Whose fault?

So the point is, even I made in a previous discussion somewhere at DFI and I have said it clearly that the law enforcement agencies have to be honest and scientifically equipped when writing a report about a person who used his gun.
I agree completely but again, whose fault that the fence is eating the crop? Not of the citizen.

Also India has to bring down the disparity between poor and rich first to own gun laws like USA. I would hate a poverty ridden desperate person having easy access to gun more, than a rich bastard having the same.
I don't agree that money essentially determines a man's character. There are good & bad, calm & desperate people on both sides despite of the stark disparity. But then you have your opinion and I have mine.

Citizens cannot be combatants by just having a gun, without training; which demands money and time spent with seasoned professionals. I would rather hide and run away and wait for police to come and rescue me than trusting Virendra carrying gun, as he would save me by putting himself on the line, Plain stupid.
Indeed, I might just say dude you're on your own but there are too many scenarios plausible in real life and accordingly many different best routes to take (one or two in each).
What I'd stress on here is, training is never enough as you can't predict what would befall you. But everyone serious enough gets trained as much as they can and try to do their best, Real life is not a lab test where you can control variables and dictate scenarios or conclusions.
Its a slugfest out there; the man with skills and means to defend himself has a chance even when that "rather hide and run away and wait for police to come" is not possible. What of the unarmed unskilled man then?
Why are you a member of a Rifle club and learning martial Arts when a skilled assasin might still get the better of you?

This is what Americans are told to do if they can, irrespective of knowing people may be carrying guns for self-defence. They use this quote during training for such scenarios 'No Heroism'.
I think you know by now that I won't disagree with you on this.

For the scenario you were trying to sketch i.e. if the encounter is unavoidable and you have a gun then Americans are more trained to defend and legally safe knowing their judiciary and the law-enforcement will be complementing their effort of defence.
Which is exactly what has to be done in India aswell. But not only is the Govt. unwilling, even the citizenry is sleeping. Then one day there's an incident and scores die, there's hue and cry. And then life goes on :tsk: But we won't introspect. We won't demand on the given rights. We won't question the paralytic system. We won't arm up with awareness and means.
By the way a question popped up if you could please answer.
if you're alone one-on-one against an armed assailant and there's no way to call for help, runaway. He doesn't want your surrender either. He simply wants to kill you with his weapon.
You have a gun, you only know how to point and press the trigger and aren't as savvy trained and informed as your tall standard "Americans".
Now - would you go ahead and try ... or say no I'm not well trained and informed so wouldn't use??

Let me wind this up by saying that we're not gun totting fan boys mate. We only want ourselves and our people to be able to protect themselves should the need face them someday.

Regards,
Virendra
 
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Liberty_and_Freedom

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If you do not know from where the discussion is coming then you do not jump into it.
And might that sentence apply to you my friend, you've already hijacked this thread to oblivion. We are discussing the United States here, aren't we ?
The argument was if Indians were having guns then 26/11 causalities were to be less or terrorist could have been killed by ordinary citizens. But people are not allowed to dine in with weapons in hotels; same was the case in that theatre.
"India", dang mate! Which state is that now and where in the continental United States? Comparing apples with oranges eh ?!!
Since you are not sure about my point therefore rest of the discussion is going to be futile.
True, now that this thread has gone South"¦er East !

Liberal gun laws are not able to save people in many situations.
Is it so ?
I have been a member of a gun club for last three years.
Why then ? In light of the aforementioned point ? Are you 'preparing' for something ?
I have been taking professional training how to keep and use gun because of mandatory Gun laws of the land under strict watch and higher stakes (my citizenship, heavy fines sucking fortune and no job etc.) pledged before the Police/Law.
No Job = Higher Stakes ??? Anyway !
I was once Black belt in Taekwondo and am good rescue swimmer with senior citizen first aid certificate apart from my specialized qualification in the health Science field. I know how to defend and have professional psychological training/knowledge to cope with post assault repercussions/symptoms.
Only you sir, I agree. And everyone else who wants a guns is a blooming nutjob, not to mention; a wimp who can't even lift a finger much less a Firearm; who would panic at the repercussions/symptoms of an impending mosquito bite.
My illiterate bravado first cousin own a licence and gun for last two year, the d1ck has bullied her wife 3 times with his gun.
Ah, I see the sound first-hand experience on which that blooming nutjob benchmark is based.
 

W.G.Ewald

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If there is to be a debate, what is the statement, or proposition, which posters are to be for or against?

Can someone state a proposition?

E.g., "Gun control laws in America should be strengthened."
 

Razor

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Russian MPs suggest allowing public use of firearms shortly after Colorado shootings

Following the shooting spree in a Colorado cinema, Russian legislators have drafted a bill which would allow public use of firearms. The law's sponsors hope to curb crime rates, while opponents say legal air-guns already cause enough damage.

-The principle behind the drafted bill allowing the private use of handguns is "my home is my castle," so any invasion of private space could be met with loaded barrels.

Aleksandr Torshin, who drafted the bill, says pistol owners might get divided into several groups. Some would be sanctioned to use weapons to protect their homes only, while others would be authorized to take handguns in their cars. The most privileged group would be permitted to carry pistols anywhere. This third category could include postmen, ambulance staff and social workers.

To have the right to use handguns, Russians would have to prove they are not mentally ill, have no criminal record, are not addicted to alcohol or drugs and undergo special training.

Torshin and his supporters think more guns would bring down crime rates. It has also been suggested that Russia's GDP would benefit from a gun sales boom and the industry would become more competitive given the surge in demand. The average cost of a pistol is around $300, while the number of potential pistol buyers is as high as 23 million, according to Torshin's estimates.

Opponents dispute the logic underpinning the bill. MPs say that air-guns, which are already allowed in Russia, are more than enough for self-defense. A rubber bullet fired from such a weapon can break a skull and inflict a deadly wound.

Experts also doubt the new law would help to discipline the public. Air-guns are quite frequently used in street rows instead of self-defense, so making a stock of firearms available to the public would only criminalize society, they point out.

"I am totally against this initiative," Veniamin Rodzyansky, a member of the Public Chamber, told RT. "We remember the case of the football fan Egor Sviridov. He was shot dead with a non-lethal gun."

"This whole debate has a single cause, namely that society feels unsafe. It wants justice and it's up to the government to provide this protection. To provide it, and not to sell it to people for money," added Rodzyansky.

A 100-page draft law was released Wednesday, while the upper chamber of Russia's Parliament listened to Torshin's report on Tuesday. Russia's government has already called the bill "unnecessary and ill-timed", but the legislators are still to pass their judgment. If the initiative is approved, the draft will get a full hearing in one of the autumn sessions.
More @ Source = RT

A good move by Russia, hope it becomes a law.
Hope Gun Control is relaxed in India too. It's ridiculous in India.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."... Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
 

pmaitra

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If there is to be a debate, what is the statement, or proposition, which posters are to be for or against?

Can someone state a proposition?

E.g., "Gun control laws in America should be strengthened."
I am in favour of preserving the right to bear arms.
 

asianobserve

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I am in favour of preserving the right to bear arms.
Yes, for purely defensive weapons like pistols and revolvers. But NO for assault rifles.

Note that the assault riles used by that crazy guy Holmes were all purchased legally. What if Americans can only buy pistols and revolvers and not assault rifles? So most probably those 10 fatalities would not have been all killed.

But the crazier thing is that after the massacre it seems more Americans stacked up weapons. I assume a lot of those who bought assault rifles after the massacre were gun advocates who are afraid that the incident will prompt US legislators to enact stricter gun laws.

Gun sales surge after Colorado movie massacre - Americas - Al Jazeera English
 

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