Future Ready Combat Vehicle tender

[south block]

There is nothing futuristic in Armata. Tank designs and prototypes of 3 man crew capsule and remote controlled unmanned turret in a MBT existed in 80s and 90s in USA and Germany but they choose not to field it.
Arjun is comparable to the best tanks like M1A2 SEP,LEO-2A7,CHALLENGER 2 and Merkava -4 and belongs to 60 + ton weight class.
T-90 on the other hand having been comprehensively defeated in all aspects of tank vs arjun in 2007 is still being inducted.
Also we don't own the T-90 design which the Russians have refused even after taking money in the name of TOT. Also it is a shit of a design compared to Arjun mk2.
Hence for India Arjun mk2 and FMBT is the future.

LOL then what else do you want in FMBT laser beams & please don't give this crap that fuel guzzler Arjun is better, it's hardly in league of tanks you mentioned...Let DODO first make it 100% indeginous with all Indian components & then compare it with others.
Armata in IA will not only give us technological & phycological edge over our enemies but keep Russians away from selling it to our enemies & we can also get some technical know how.

One last thing i like to say is most such deal's with Russia are done for strategic geopolitical reasons.

 

[rone]

look going on Russia became un trust full frnd .. am sure they tie up with India only for money nothing more ,if we get t14 it will be in down rated config as always Russia sold anything to us , so if we buy t14 in down rate config and pak buy type 99 or newer type chinese with same config as pla there will be a imminent fate waiting for us that happen to soudi m1a2

 

[itsme]

Any other tanks other than T14?

 

[sayareakd]

most of these deals are strategic in nature...Indian army is looking for Future MBT & Arjun is hardly futuristic....Armata offers a leap which DODO can't provide even in next 2 decade.

They only managed to indigenised 70% of T 90 & will be reaching 90% by 2020 at minimum while Armata is next generation technology which neither our enemies have or will have for long. Pakistani have nothing to match even T 90 & they recently rejected chinese junk for Ukrainian one.

Armata presence in battlefield will shatter paki morale & we can also get license to produced it in India & gradually indigenised it like T 90 & learn technology know how to build a real FMBT.

have you read the RFI to even understand what they want?

Go through it first, then we will discuss your post.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

LOL then what else do you want in FMBT laser beams & please don't give this crap that fuel guzzler Arjun is better, it's hardly in league of tanks you mentioned...Let DODO first make it 100% indeginous with all Indian components & then compare it with others.
Armata in IA will not only give us technological & phycological edge over our enemies but keep Russians away from selling it to our enemies & we can also get some technical know how.

One last thing i like to say is most such deal's with Russia are done for strategic geopolitical reasons.

By your logic India should stop inducting Arjun because it is not 100 % indegeneous but induct Armata which is 100 % foreign and even after paying TOT to Russia for Armata we have to make use of Technology developed for Arjun mk2 in Armata because Russia will not give it even after taking money.
Also how do you come to conclusion that after posessing Armata in 2025-27 timeframe it will allow us to have a pyschological advantages of our enemies. I am not a future predictor but I can foresee a scenario where in by 2020 China definately will make a copy of Armata type MBT and sell downgraded export models of it to Pakistan by 2025. Again Russia sold Su-30 mki to India and Su-35 to China in limited numbers,hence your conclusion that they won't sell to China if offered money is wrong.
Also have any other nations deployed such tanks other than Russia?
From a technological point of view lets see that that you think give a technological advantage to Armata and see where our indegeneous solution stand:

1. Remote unmanned turret: very much within our reach given the expertise in Robotics by CAIR lab of DRDO and CVRDE which recently came up with Muntra-s an unmanned tank on BMP platform.
2.Armour: Kanchan armour is already one of the best composite armour in the world. Expertise in manufacturing of Al,Ti alloys,Fibre reinforced glass/polymer composite,graded functionally graded armour of type Ti/TiB2 etc, advanced ceramics like boron carbide etc as well as Cnt and metal matrix composites,ultrahigh hardness steel have been acheived by DMRL which will find its place in Arjun mK2, Fmbt.
3.Active armour: Work on NERA and ERA is progressing well in DMRL and they have been inducted and future work is being researched.
4. APS: As I previously posted in Arjun thread a UWB radr based APS is being developed.
5. Suspension: work on semiactive suspention in going on in CVRDE
6. Engine: 1500 hp engine is in protyping stage.

All this work apart from FMBT vehicle configuration design and simulation work is being pursued in CVRDE based on revolutionary design
Now tell me what is the advantage do we have by not inducting Arjun mk2 and FMBT and go for T-14?

 

[sayareakd]

There is nothing futuristic in Armata. Tank designs and prototypes of 3 man crew capsule and remote controlled unmanned turret in a MBT existed in 80s and 90s in USA and Germany but they choose not to field it.
Arjun is comparable to the best tanks like M1A2 SEP,LEO-2A7,CHALLENGER 2 and Merkava -4 and belongs to 60 + ton weight class.
T-90 on the other hand having been comprehensively defeated in all aspects of tank vs arjun in 2007 is still being inducted.
Also we don't own the T-90 design which the Russians have refused even after taking money in the name of TOT. Also it is a shit of a design compared to Arjun mk2.
Hence for India Arjun mk2 and FMBT is the future.

Well Russians figure out after Gulf war that T72 won't survive if its up against western tanks, to export, they clothed new name with superficial modification by upgraded T72m into T90s. They themselves said 60% of production line of T72 is common with T90s. What was not common, later supplied by DRDO.

Now Russians didn't inducted T90s in number, because of above reason and went for adding armor on its tank, even Chinese are adding more armor into their tanks. Knowing what modern Anti tank weapons and other Western tanks could do.

Now coming back to unmanned turret, is that autoloader sometimes misfire or misload, to avoid this all the armies had manual loader, Russians have auto loader. Not out to mention that many crew members lost arm, when they wére not focused, it was very unforgiving.

Now they went to next level by going for unmanned turret, with more protection to its crew. This means that Arjun tank crew protection concept is correct. Now all going for it. IA not accepting the same.

Less said about T90s better it is. Moscow has shown our best crews, become useless, when tanks( two tanks) give up. It was not even desert of Rajasthan.

Last but not least, DRDO asked IA for its requirements for FMBT, IA didnt know what to put in, they still dont know, thats why they asked, others to tell what their FMBT could do, with minimum requirements. DRDO are making the same based on its own understanding. DGMF and his department has to work hard, could say lot, but not saying. But i should say, its stupid idea, asking others what they could do, because, we dont know what FMBT should be.

Tanks are ordered based on its tank doctrine, doctrine is based on geographical locations and how they want to operate and take on its objectives, w.r.t enemies.

Now instead of our tank doctrine, they are asking others to show, what they could do with their FMBT, with minimum requirements.

Others will supply its export version, which is lower level of system, they will not supply state of art system. We are at others mercy. They will milk all they can.

I already posted FRCV, Future Ready Combat Vehicle, was drafted and made in such a way to keep drdo/Arjun MK3/FMBT out. Only T14 could fulfil, thus criminal stupidly.

 

[aditya10r]

Well Russians figure out after Gulf war that T72 won't survive if its up against western tanks, to export, they clothed new name with superficial modification by upgraded T72m into T90s. They themselves said 60% of production line of T72 is common with T90s. What was not common, later supplied by DRDO.

Now Russians didn't inducted T90s in number, because of above reason and went for adding armor on its tank, even Chinese are adding more armor into their tanks. Knowing what modern Anti tank weapons and other Western tanks could do.

Now coming back to unmanned turret, is that autoloader sometimes misfire or misload, to avoid this all the armies had manual loader, Russians have auto loader. Not out to mention that many crew members lost arm, when they wére not focused, it was very unforgiving.

Now they went to next level by going for unmanned turret, with more protection to its crew. This means that Arjun tank crew protection concept is correct. Now all going for it. IA not accepting the same.

Less said about T90s better it is. Moscow has shown our best crews, become useless, when tanks( two tanks) give up. It was not even desert of Rajasthan.

Last but not least, DRDO asked IA for its requirements for FMBT, IA didnt know what to put in, they still dont know, thats why they asked, others to tell what their FMBT could do, with minimum requirements. DRDO are making the same based on its own understanding. DGMF and his department has to work hard, could say lot, but not saying. But i should say, its stupid idea, asking others what they could do, because, we dont know what FMBT should be.

Tanks are ordered based on its tank doctrine, doctrine is based on geographical locations and how they want to operate and take on its objectives, w.r.t enemies.

Now instead of our tank doctrine, they are asking others to show, what they could do with their FMBT, with minimum requirements.

Others will supply its export version, which is lower level of system, they will not supply state of art system. We are at others mercy. They will milk all they can.

I already posted FRCV, Future Ready Combat Vehicle, was drafted and made in such a way to keep drdo/Arjun MK3/FMBT out. Only T14 could fulfil, thus criminal stupidly.

Let's just pray that we are slapped with Ames embargo from USA, UK,France,Germany and every goddamn arms exporting country.

_________________________________________

Would save forex fund our MIC and give jobs.

 

[sayareakd]

4. APS: As I previously posted in Arjun thread a UWB radr based APS is being developed.
5. Suspension: work on semiactive suspention in going on in CVRDE

Whats both these points. Years ago when they brought in unmanned vehicles, I went in with another member an IITian, who grilled member of team for 1 hour them comes back thumps up.

Forget unmanned turret, unmanned tank is not too far, which is better, unmanned turret or unmanned tank, within line of sight.

 

[sayareakd]

Let's just pray that we are slapped with Ames embargo from USA, UK,France,Germany and every goddamn arms exporting country.

_________________________________________

Would save forex fund our MIC and give jobs.

I am all for local, others will jump from Russians to Western systems.

Make locally, we are that smart, that we could beat best of them, if you can't believe that, you don't have confidence in yourself.

 

[aditya10r]

I am all for local, others will jump from Russians to Western systems.

Make locally, we are that smart, that we could beat best of them, if you can't believe that, you don't have confidence in yourself.

There is no goddamn country on the planet which has so much of demographic and geographical diversity.

We need a system that can fit all-night other country can build such systems for us.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

@shuvo@y2k10 do we have auto loader in any of our tanks?

The Russian tanks in our inventory t-72 and t-90s have autoloaders and 3 man crew. This is done to reduce the silhoute of the tank.They work on the philosophy of low detectability rather than survivability even when hit like arjun.It is being locally manufactured under licence in CVRDE. Arjun on the other hand has 4 man crew and does not have autoloader.
As I previously said a 120 mm gun based Arjun mk2 or FMBT does not need autoloader. But if army wants higher caliber guns like 130/140/152 mm autoloader is neccesary as each round will weight 30-40 kg and human loader cannot handle that.

 

[sayareakd]

The Russian tanks in our inventory t-72 and t-90s have autoloaders and 3 man crew. This is done to reduce the silhoute of the tank.They work on the philosophy of low detectability rather than survivability even when hit like arjun.It is being locally manufactured under licence in CVRDE. Arjun on the other hand has 4 man crew and does not have autoloader.
As I previously said a 120 mm gun based Arjun mk2 or FMBT does not need autoloader. But if army wants higher caliber guns like 130/140/152 mm autoloader is neccesary as each round will weight 30-40 kg and human loader cannot handle that.

Just want to add:
T series: low detectability
Markava4: hit avoidence.
Arjun: hit absorbtion & survivability.

Now if Tseries got detected, its crew which from lots of Youtube video shows runs away or get blown by secondary explosion. This is not the case with arjun. Mk2 is more protected.

FMBT drdo is also looking for autoloader, if its reliable design, 3 or less crew. Hope drive by wire and other system.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Whats both these points. Years ago when they brought in unmanned vehicles, I went in with another member an IITian, who grilled member of team for 1 hour them comes back thumps up.

Forget unmanned turret, unmanned tank is not too far, which is better, unmanned turret or unmanned tank, within line of sight.

A Multi band OFDM type Ultra Wide Band radar system operating at 10 GHz with a phased array antenna is being developed for active protection system in AFVs to be effective against RPGs and ATGM TYPE target.
The mass of the vehicle suspended with the spring exhibits a tendency towards sustained oscillations. The role of the damper is todecay and arrest the oscillations of the spring-mass system. A large level of damping reduces the effectiveness of the spring and may lead to increased acceleration in the chassis. A low level of damping makes the suspension system vulnerable to resonance. These conflicting requirements suggest that by suitably varying the damping, ride comfort can be improved substantially. Such systems, wherein, the damping is variableare called as semi-active suspension.This is under developement in CVRDE.
Unmanned turret is a stepping stone towards unmanned tank. For a unmanned turret to work the all electric / electrhydraulic turret control system is controlled via a computer based control system which is remotely operated from the crew capsule in the hull front.
Unmanned tank on the other hand has all its vectronics and survelliance and armamernt system controlled via a computer like a UAV which is connected to a weapon operating centre via a RF link. CVRDE along with CAIR is also trying to embed artificial intelligence and pattern recognition software into the computer so that tasks like complex navigation, IFF and weapons discharge can be autonomously controlled to a certain extent without the human in the loop.Hence it is more complicated but successfully deployed in Muntra based system.
P.S : Refer to these DRDO publications.

 

[WolfPack86]

We must develope arjun mk 3 tank weight around 55 tonne and also we must develope auto loader with a 3 man crew. This rfi looks like favouring russia armata tank which is around 50 tonne or more. Both iaf and indian army are hell bent on destroying indigenous weapons. Indian govt should do some thing about this behaviour.

 

[Vinod DX9]

This is what happens when you buy below grade things
http://thestrategictimes.com/30-pakistani-al-khalid-tanks-break-down/
Hope,Arjun does not suffer like this

 

[Kunal Biswas]

At the end of the day, Our mission should always be to introduce Indian design and made components ..

I am waiting for Bharat pack engine, Now we need this not only for Arjun but T-90 as well ..

This is what happens when you buy below grade things
http://thestrategictimes.com/30-pakistani-al-khalid-tanks-break-down/
Hope,Arjun does not suffer like this

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In my life time, I never heard anything like ' Future ready ' ..

 

[Butter Chicken]

Maybe IA will ask for some technologies from Arjun to be inducted in Armata too!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Just like how we are doing with T-90 so far ..

Firepower = ARDE gun.
Armour = DRDO Kanchan.
Mobility = Bharat pack in near future.

Maybe IA will ask for some technologies from Arjun to be inducted in Armata too!

 

[sayareakd]

At the end of the day, Our mission should always be to introduce Indian design and made components ..

I am waiting for Bharat pack engine, Now we need this not only for Arjun but T-90 as well ..

Sir Indian Industry is ready to make engines for all, been to one defexpo, one of the leading car maker, was ready to make engines for Artillery gun (self propelled) provided they will give good enough order, they don't want a situation when they invest in something and order does not comes.

They can deliver all but no order and capital investment, with no recovery on investment stop them.

US has good policy and we should copy that. If local company makes it, priority should be local first.