India US Relations

arkem8

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No one makes large payload transport aircraft like the Americans....The Americans practically invented the modern bomber and transport aircraft. The Russians are out of the race....

The American M.I.C Fvcked up completely when it came to choosing 5th Gen Fighter A/C configurations... now it turns out both are too expensive to produce in numbers like the F-5, F-4 and the F-15.

Also letting MacDonnell Douglas end up in the gutter will come back to haunt the Americans big time..just like Studebaker
 

average american

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No one makes large payload transport aircraft like the Americans....The Americans practically invented the modern bomber and transport aircraft. The Russians are out of the race....

The American M.I.C Fvcked up completely when it came to choosing 5th Gen Fighter A/C configurations... now it turns out both are too expensive to produce in numbers like the F-5, F-4 and the F-15.

Also letting MacDonnell Douglas end up in the gutter will come back to haunt the Americans big time..just like Studebaker
There is no threat to the USA or USA airpower that calls for the USA to build its air power more the present day plan. At one time when the F22 was first started it was thought the USSR would be a substantial military power.

Its not and with only a military budget ten percent of the USA will never be a real threat. Russia does not have the economic power to be a threat to the USA. Its not we can build more planes, but that we dont need more planes.
US, China & Russian Military Strength Compared
Submitted by Ralph Waldo on Sun, 09/27/2009 - 14:23
in Daily Paul Liberty Forum


There seems to be a lot of confusion about how US military strength compares to that of China and Russia. Here are a few of the main categories from 2009 as well as a reference for more info.

Military Defense Spending and Budgets
USA - $515,400,000,000
China - $59,000,000,000
Russia - $43,200,000,000

Aerial-Based Weapons
USA - 18,169
China - 1,900
Russia - 3,888

Navy Ships
USA - 1559
China - 760
Russia - 526

Aircraft Carriers
USA - 12
China - 1
Russia - 1

Destroyers
USA - 50
China - 21
Russia - 15

In addition one must consider that this difference in military budgets has been going on since the USSR collapsed almost 20 years ago. Plus the degree of sophistication of the technology is drastically different as well. ie. All tanks are not created equal! (These numbers do not include atomic weapons).

For more info:
Global Firepower - 2012 World Military Strength Ranking
 

average american

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I was in Russia a few years ago, all of a sudden a dozen soldiers getting off a military bus dove in to a pile i found out some on had thowen them a pack of cigretts and they were going after it like a fumbled football. You can compare Russia conscripts to Americans professionals with their years of combat experience.

REAL WORLD:::

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=India
 
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W.G.Ewald

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I was in Russia a few years ago, all of a sudden a dozen soldiers getting off a military bus dove in to a pile i found out some on had thowen them a pack of cigretts and they were going after it like a fumbled football. You can compare Russia conscripts to Americans professionals with their years of combat experience.

REAL WORLD:::

Military Strength of India
Average, can you post something here?

Introductions & Greetings
 

desicanuk

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Going the Extra Mile for a Strategic U.S.–India Relationship By Lisa Curtis August 20

While the U.S. and India have developed multifaceted ties over the last decade, the overall relationship has recently been challenged: India bought advanced fighter jets from France, not from the U.S.; the Indian parliament virtually shut out U.S. companies from India's civil nuclear industry; the Singh government delayed economic reforms that would give foreign companies greater access to the Indian market; and many Indians remain suspicious of the Obama Administration's plans for the Asia–Pacific. Nevertheless, the growing strategic challenge presented by a rising China, and India's and America's shared democratic values, will drive the two countries to increase cooperation. India and the U.S. should accept that the partnership will not always meet their expectations, and must demonstrate a willingness to collaborate on issues of core importance to the other.

Click Here to Read the Full Report

Building a Strategic US-India Partnership
 

Known_Unknown

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Re: Going the Extra Mile for a Strategic U.S.–India Relationship By Lisa Curtis Augus

^^Thanks, interesting read.
 

The Messiah

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Re: Going the Extra Mile for a Strategic U.S.–India Relationship By Lisa Curtis Augus

Several differences between the U.S. and India have arisen over the past two years. While none of the issues on its own would be a major cause of concern, when taken together, the irritants have cast doubt on India's value as a strategic partner for the U.S.
Stopped reading there.
 

average american

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Best I can tell India wants the USA as an ally but dont want to be an ally to the USA.. Kind of a one way ally.
 

Known_Unknown

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^^India does not want to be an ally, just a partner. And it will be a partner for the US as well.

"Ally" is usually a one way relationship where the US dictates and the "ally" obeys. We know of "great" US allies such as Britain, Japan and Australia. They pretty much do whatever the US tells them to, whether it be violating international laws and human rights when it comes to CIA black sites, or oppressing and going against the wishes of their own people when it comes to domestic issues such as copyright or national security issues such as the storage and development of nukes.

A great power cannot be an "ally" of another great power unless it is on equal terms. The US is not used to treating other countries on equal terms, and the ones it does, it considers its adversaries.
 

average american

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^^India does not want to be an ally, just a partner. And it will be a partner for the US as well.

"Ally" is usually a one way relationship where the US dictates and the "ally" obeys. We know of "great" US allies such as Britain, Japan and Australia. They pretty much do whatever the US tells them to, whether it be violating international laws and human rights when it comes to CIA black sites, or oppressing and going against the wishes of their own people when it comes to domestic issues such as copyright or national security issues such as the storage and development of nukes.

A great power cannot be an "ally" of another great power unless it is on equal terms. The US is not used to treating other countries on equal terms, and the ones it does, it considers its adversaries.
Brings couple things to mind, one is India a great power? and what is the point of having an ally if its just a one way street and you cant depend on it.
 

Known_Unknown

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Brings couple things to mind, one is India a great power? and what is the point of having an ally if its just a one way street and you cant depend on it.
Indians have been a civilizational great power for 4,800 out of the past 5,000 years. The past 200 years of British colonial rule and since then is but a blip on the radar, it will pass, and India will become a great power again, we are already on our way. That's a conviction that most Indians have, and if Americans didn't have such a short history yourselves, you would appreciate it as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by the 2nd point, but suffice it to say that an "alliance" is a two way street where both nations treat each other as equals and friends. The US treats its allies like subordinates in exchange for guaranteeing their security under its nuclear umbrella.

India will never accept such a relationship, and that is the basis of India's foreign policy since Independence, "strategic autonomy".
 

Aruni

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Let's not have the wet dream about strategic autonomy and remaining non-aligned. These are keywords from a bygone era and we have suffered a lot in the past 65 years due to our fixation on not taking sides.

Look, we need to accept a few things - the US is a superpower, we are not. Therefore, we cannot expect to be the senior partner in our dealings with the US. There are things that we can offer which the US would value, and vice versa. Some people here seem to mock the US security umbrella, but is that such a bad thing? The only reason why China hasn't annexed Taiwan is because of its security agreement with the US. China would have been far more assertive in its dealings with Japan and South Korea if it were not for the presence of the US Pacific Fleet to enforce the security agreement these two countries have with the US. If I were PM today, my top priority would be to start negotiating a strategic military, political and economic alliance agreement with the US. We know the US is desperate to contain China's rise - we are nervous about it too - why can't we use this common interest to thrash out a deal which means that the US and India would be part of a common security framework, perhaps including Japan, South Korea, Australia, Britain, and a few other common minded democracies?

Such thinking is abhorrent in the Foreign Ministry and will remain so until the Cold War trained babus retire and some new blood is injected in the department. Our laden footen foreign policy has meant that we have been unable to secure a strategic alliance with any major power, China now has a foothold in all our neighbouring countries and is likely to start work on securing strategically important assets (e.g. ports, roads, etc.) in/through these countries, and we have failed miserably to build a common framework in Asia/Pacific of common minded democracies to work together on geopolitical issues, and not be hopelessly manipulated and/or threatened by the junta in Beijing.

Bah, humbug!
 

winton

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Let's not have the wet dream about strategic autonomy and remaining non-aligned. These are keywords from a bygone era and we have suffered a lot in the past 65 years due to our fixation on not taking sides.

Look, we need to accept a few things - the US is a superpower, we are not. Therefore, we cannot expect to be the senior partner in our dealings with the US. There are things that we can offer which the US would value, and vice versa. Some people here seem to mock the US security umbrella, but is that such a bad thing? The only reason why China hasn't annexed Taiwan is because of its security agreement with the US. China would have been far more assertive in its dealings with Japan and South Korea if it were not for the presence of the US Pacific Fleet to enforce the security agreement these two countries have with the US. If I were PM today, my top priority would be to start negotiating a strategic military, political and economic alliance agreement with the US. We know the US is desperate to contain China's rise - we are nervous about it too - why can't we use this common interest to thrash out a deal which means that the US and India would be part of a common security framework, perhaps including Japan, South Korea, Australia, Britain, and a few other common minded democracies?

Such thinking is abhorrent in the Foreign Ministry and will remain so until the Cold War trained babus retire and some new blood is injected in the department. Our laden footen foreign policy has meant that we have been unable to secure a strategic alliance with any major power, China now has a foothold in all our neighbouring countries and is likely to start work on securing strategically important assets (e.g. ports, roads, etc.) in/through these countries, and we have failed miserably to build a common framework in Asia/Pacific of common minded democracies to work together on geopolitical issues, and not be hopelessly manipulated and/or threatened by the junta in Beijing.

Bah, humbug!
200 years ago, the indians tried to negotiate a strategic alliance with the british. That went well, but I think the execution didn't.
 

trackwhack

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200 years ago, the indians tried to negotiate a strategic alliance with the british. That went well, but I think the execution didn't.
so what are your thoughts on australia being bought over buy china and India?
 

Bangalorean

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so what are your thoughts on australia being bought over buy china and India?
Trust me, the bugger is a Chinese troll pretending to be an Aussie. I can bet my life on it.

A native Aussie would have to be thoroughly shameless to constantly praise China the way this fellow has been doing. Every country has people who are proud of their own nation. But here we have a fellow who is praising another nation to the skies, almost to the extent of boot-licking. It is not a usual phenomenon at all.

Some of the things he has already said are, "Indians should be persuaded to accept Chinese hegemony in Indian ocean", "India is poor and China is rich", and a variety of other bullshit like that. Now, one has to be a big nether-licker to call China a "rich nation", especially if the fellow is actually a Westerner.

Just go through his posting history - he does not care what shit you talk about Australia - he is a tiresome Chinese troll.
 
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tjpf

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Trust me, the bugger is a Chinese troll pretending to be an Aussie. I can bet my life on it.

A native Aussie would have to be thoroughly shameless to constantly praise China the way this fellow has been doing. Every country has people who are proud of their own nation. But here we have a fellow who is praising another nation to the skies, almost to the extent of boot-licking. It is not a usual phenomenon at all.

Some of the things he has already said are, "Indians should be persuaded to accept Chinese hegemony in Indian ocean", "India is poor and China is rich", and a variety of other bullshit like that. Now, one has to be a big nether-licker to call China a "rich nation", especially if the fellow is actually a Westerner.

Just go through his posting history - he does not care what shit you talk about Australia - he is a tiresome Chinese troll.
he is that goat shagging farhan:censored:
 
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cobra commando

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Don't Push India To Build Anti-China Alliance: OSD Official

Don't Push India To Build Anti-China Alliance: OSD Official
WASHINGTON: Things are going great with India -- don't screw it up

That's the bottom line in a report from the influential Center for Strategic and International Studies entitled "US-India Military Engagement: Steady As They Go," which the think tank previewed today as President Obama tours through Asia.

"[Go] slow and steady, and the trajectory is inevitably upward," summed up report author S. Amer Latif in an exchange with AOL Defense after today's briefing. (Latif, a Pentagon official on loan to CSIS as a visiting scholar, emphasized he was speaking for himself, not for the Department of Defense. But he is returning to the Office of the Secretary of Defense in a few weeks and he is an influential voice on policy). "The relationship is going to move at a pace that's comfortable for India."

"It's important that we realize how far we've come," retired Adm. Walter Doran, the former commander of Pacific Fleet, told the audience at CSIS, "lest it succumb to the fatigue and the frustration that is flowing around the overall relationship." Doran, who attended India's Defense Services Staff College as a young officer in 1979, is more familiar with the subcontinental pace than most US officers. Now is the time, he said, to "reignite" the US-India relationship.

US outreach to populous, growing, democratic India has increased in parallel to American anxiety about the rise of populous, growing authoritarian China. But India has a 60-year tradition of "non-alignment" in great power quarrels and is hesitant even to project power in its own immediate region.

So while New Delhi has its own worries about Beijing -- the two countries even fought a brief and, for India, humiliating border war in 1962 -- and an increasing assertive regional stance, it has no interest in becoming Washington's wingman in a Pacific strategy of containment. Indian's security apparatus is more concerned about internal ethnic unrest, terrorism, and neighboring Pakistan than it is about global or even regional geopolitics. Despite common values of democracy and diversity, despite a common heritage of British colonization and the English language, the US and India remain deeply different countries with divergent strategic goals. As anyone who's been to Calcutta could tell you, Australia it ain't.

Latif's report boils down to cautious optimism, with equal emphasis on "optimism" and on "cautious." Despite American frustrations that things are progressing too slowly and Indian anxieties that they're moving too fast, cooperation with India has gone farther than "most knowledgeable observers" would ever have predicted ten years ago, he writes, and we can go still further -- so don't blow it up by pushing them too hard. Again and again, Latif repeats that the US must have "reasonable expectations," "modest expectations," and must "refrain from pressuring India about [formal] defense agreements" or even from "overpublicizing military engagement" that already goes on.

There's certainly a lot of military engagement to publicize. After decades of estrangement and suspicion, when the US armed India's arch-rival Pakistan while India bought Soviet weapons, India now conducts more military exercises with the US than it does with any other nation. That's especially remarkable considering that the US and India didn't engage in exercises together at all until 1992, and that just six years later, in 1998, the US imposed sanctions on both India and Pakistan after their dueling nuclear tests -- sanctions which George W. Bush waived within two weeks of 9/11 as he sought regional support against Afghanistan.

Latif attributes the turnaround less to the assiduous diplomatic outreach by both the Bush and Obama administrations than to the trial by fire of the December 2004 tsunami, which brought US and Indian commanders together in doing disaster relief.

Doran commanded the Pacific Fleet at the time -- and one of his former classmates from the staff college, Adm. Arun Prakash, was India's Chief of Naval staff. "We were all scrambling," Doran recalled. "There was no [formal] command apparatus that we were working under," he said. Yet, in the crucible of a natural disaster, the two sides came together, improvised, and cooperated in a way no formal process could have produced, he said: "If our two governments had decided to sit down and do this, it would've been difficult and would've taken a much longer period of time."

Just months later, the two nations signed a landmark military cooperation agreement and joint exercises began to take off. US-Indian cooperation, historically led by the two nations' navies, has even expanded to their respective air forces and armies -- although, Latif added, in those areas "the strategic underpinnings of the relationship are a little bit more nebulous," with few specific scenarios for cooperation in the air or on the ground as opposed to at sea. Disaster relief and humanitarian aid, Latif argues, provide the most fertile ground for the US and India to build cooperation and trust across all their armed services without triggering India's decades-long anxieties about military alliances.

It's Indian politicians and civil servants, not the officer corps, that Latif sees as the obstacles to engagement. In particular, "the civilian bureaucracy in the Ministry of Defense is an impediment to closer US-India ties," he said at CSIS, eliciting knowing chuckles around the room. "We consistently found when you talk to the services [i.e. the uniformed military], there is a hunger, there is a great desire to see closer service-to-service relations. But unfortunately, the civilian overseers within the Indian bureaucracy have some reservations."

Indeed, the Ministry of Defense is not only reluctant about closer cooperation but just plain understaffed to conduct it. Latif recommends the MOD set up a high-level policy shop to serve as a counterpart and interlocutor for the Office of the Secretary of Defense. (He may be grinding a personal axe here, since Latif was OSD's chief policy official engaging with India for years).

Latif also urges new avenues for collaboration ranging from training more Afghan soldiers and police in India (already underway at a low level) to cooperating on tracking space debris. His most significant recommendations include more exchanges of officers between the US and Indian militaries, joint patrols in the Indian Ocean, and even granting India access to the US mega-base at Diego Garcia in return for US access to India's strategically located Andaman and Nicobar Islands. But the US should not expect a formal agreement on, say, logistical support any time soon, Latif cautions, and pushing for one could backfire.

So while the US should try to move the relationship onto a more permanent, institutional footing than the ongoing military exercises, "the Indian side may not feel that such a transition is necessary," he writes. "India feels that military engagement is going quite well and there is no need for further activity [because] the relationship has reached a plateau." The strategic task for the US is to urge India onwards and upwards towards greater collaboration, without trying to tackle slopes so steep that the relationship tumbles back downhill.

"The US-India relationship is going to be a generational issue," said Adm. Doran. "As Americans, that's kind of a difficult pill for us to swallow; we tend to want to move quickly.... This will not develop that way. This is going to be a generational issue -- but it is worth a generation of work."

Don't Push India To Build Anti-China Alliance: OSD Official
 

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