Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV)

[Friend]

Sorry, I disagree with your overall assessment and statement of "shoddy stuff". Let me paste what I typed some days back here:

I present to you, the fact that DRDO has always been an incompetent and useless organization with a terrible work culture and horrible pay. It is a bloodsucking PSU, with typical Babu culture. Their track record is shitty, they have always overpromised and underdelivered. All talk of "DRDOs future plans" is bunkum, since they cannot deliver even 10% of what they promise on time and within budget.

Agreed

As far as increasing salaries and benefits are concerned, lets get one thing clear - these government PSUs will never be able to match the private sector, and I don't expect them to do that anytime.

Disagree. If the inflation in wage and price are controlled when the stable growth is reached, this disparity should end.

So what is the solution? The solution is to open the defence manufacturing and R&D industry to private participation. Why does the US have such power? It is because of their GEs and Haliburtons and Lockheeds and Boeings and Raytheons. We ought to let our own military industrial complex flourish in a similar fashion. We will never be a great power till we let that happen.

Privatization would be wonderful for our technological advancement. But, there would be some setbacks which need to be very cautiously handled. Too much of privatization of defence would create some very powerful 'persons' who wish to do business in billions. This would make them prone to wrongly influence the policies for the use of its products, which may be devastating.

Open your eyes friends, look around you. All industries in India which have been opened to private participation have flourished - aviation, telecommunication, insurance, software... on the other hand, everything which still has a government monopoly is still the same as it was decades back.

Agree. But, we need to differenciate between military and non-military sectors. The main difference is that military sector and non-military sectors is that military procurements are somewhat insulated from public accountability norms. We need to be very careful in this regard.

Stop asking for our tax money to go down the drain by suggesting more salary, more benefit and more budget for DRDO. They can never match up to private industry anyway, and they won't deliver in any case. Start demanding the opening up of the manufacturing sector for private investment, lets build our own GEs and Boeings and BAE systems. Stop subsidizing sarkari white elephants.

There are ways to inculcate accountability in DRDO. Probably by introducing competancy based promotions, strong leadership, and surveillance by the RAW.I still have hope

And then, I wonder if we can trust the government firms to keep information confidential.

No, seriously. What prevents a low paid sarkari babu from accepting a bribe from the ISI/Chinese/anyone else and compromise valuable information? What prevents competent hackers from hacking into poorly maintained and inefficiently implemented government servers?

I think a independent RAW surveillance would do some help. Problem with the private players is also that how do you know they dont sell the same technology to China or Pakistan in some secret deal?

A private company knows that even one mistake will ruin their company and they will make sure that this does not happen. The onus is on them.

In India, all the decades of licence Raj socialistic thinking have conditioned us to think that the government is benign and benevolent while private businessmen are untrustworthy. This is the way our minds have been conditioned.

Agreed. But, a decade of free market should not cloud our thoughts that private is the most efficient and public is just slow. (Though at the moment it is )

My point is that private 'partners' should be allowed but with huge amount of caution. I dont think foreign companies should be allowed. Indian private players should be strictly asked to depend on the domestic intelligentsia.

 

[nitesh]

Anything will be better than the crap that DRDO has been dishing out! The armed forces will not induct malfunctioning or inferior equipment. As in any other venture, the customer is king, and here the customer happens to be the armed forces.

What a lie, this is deliberate or you are pretending to be ignorant. Hints (only some big ones: T90 problems are well known)

 

[natarajan]

1lakh crore,how much for netas and babus

 

[ace009]

1 lakh crore - say at least 30% for Netas and Babus - then 30% of profit margin for the private corpn. Which means 40% left for the actual project. Given the PSUs (DRDO etc) are about 25% efficient, this is still somewhat better than the PSU efforts and would produce a better quality product.
As for the number - I think 25,000 is highly unlikely. Looking at the US$ converted figures - the total deal is about $2.2 Bln. At about $1 Mln each (compared to US made ones at $1.4 and Korean made ones at $1.2), that would be about 2200 vehicles. So, the appropriate number is something between 2000 - 2500.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have seen one of their deign in livefist.

It was obsolete, they better start learning new deigns around the world specially from Israeli..

Though our concept would be lighter..

 

[debasree]

how many armoured cars really india need,seem to me one hand they are importing many armoured cars,on the other hand producing a lot domestically ,are we going to declare war against both chyna & pakistan?

 

[sandeepdg]

with 25000 ficv we can surely conquer the rest of the world.also 1 lakh crore is not a huge amount when it comes to defence industry.i think private players should also collborate in the fmbt project and future towed,self propelled indegeneous artillery,future uav projects.even the ww2 apc looks dam cool.

Dude, 1 lakh crore is huge amount when it comes to any industry, including defense, for that matter ! That's 22 billion dollars for putting in into perspective. I am not sure this is a correct amount, and neither I have faith in that figure of 25000 FICVs, and even if it is, which I doubt, it will be spread over at least 10 years. I wonder what we will do with 25000 of these vehicles !

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Dude, 1 lakh crore is huge amount when it comes to any industry, including defense, for that matter ! That's 22 billion dollars for putting in into perspective. I am not sure this is a correct amount, and neither I have faith in that figure of 25000 FICVs, and even if it is, which I doubt, it will be spread over at least 10 years. I wonder what we will do with 25000 of these vehicles !

no sorry i could not agree with you.1 lakh crore is about 22 billion dollar and we spend close to 30 billion dollar(market exchange rate) in defence every year. and this will be a 10-15 year project.just 126 fighters cost between 10-12 billion dollars.and upa regularly indulges in more than 1 lakh crore rupees scams-2g scam-1.76 lakh crore,cwg games-90000 crore rupees(as per tourism ministry estimates before the games),s-band allocation scam-2 lakh crore.

 

[sandeepdg]

no sorry i could not agree with you.1 lakh crore is about 22 billion dollar and we spend close to 30 billion dollar(market exchange rate) in defence every year. and this will be a 10-15 year project.just 126 fighters cost between 10-12 billion dollars.and upa regularly indulges in more than 1 lakh crore rupees scams-2g scam-1.76 lakh crore,cwg games-90000 crore rupees(as per tourism ministry estimates before the games),s-band allocation scam-2 lakh crore.

Scams are not part of our discussion here, they hardly have anything to do with the IAF. And we spend close to 30 billion dollars every year on defense every year on what ?? Care to enlighten me. That's the defense budget that you are quoting the figure for, we don't spend all that money on acquisitions.

 

[Pintu]

FICV : Future Infantry Combat Vehicle Wiki

Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (F I C V):
​

Future Infantry Combat Vehicle or FICV is the important project undertook by the Government of India, to arm Indian Army with Infantry Combat Vehicle or ICVs that are capable to serve in the Future war time situations in different environments.

This project has been marked by Ministry of Defence to be completed by the Indian companies, thus ushering of the "Indian Industry only" Competition. Four Indian companies have been shortlisted. They are Tata Group, L&T, Mahindra & Mahindra(M&M) and State owned Ordinance Factory Board(OFB). This program includes research and development of 2600 FICVs, with cost approximately to the tune of Rs. 50,000 Cr. as estimated in 2010.

The FICVs will replace aging Soviet Origin BMP-IIs. The MoD, will issue the EoI (Expression of Interest) to the aforestated Four companies, which would include requirements of Indian Army.

According to the MoD, there will be no single individual winner, 2 of the biding organisations will be picked up after submission and consideration about their proposals, and will be allowed to present the Indian Army with the respective prototypes. While winner will be allowed to build 65-70% of the total requirements, the runner up will build 30-35% of the order , provided the cost will be the same as the winners.

The FICV will be capable to be operated by 3 Crew members while taking on board 7 additional soldiers, with combat equipments. It will incorporate many futuristic technologies. It will be transportable by Air, will have effective protection fire from 14.5 mm caliber weapon, will be amphibious, armed with cannon and able to fire missile. MoD will fund 80% of the Development cost and 20% will be provided by the respective contractors, provided 50% of components will be Indian origin. The approximate time would be roughly eight years.



Source: Indian Companies to Build FICV for Army | India Defence Online

 

[Ray]

 

[Ray]

In fight infantry should be outside not inside of vehicle, infantry outside is more usefull than in inside, in fact infantry should be inside only during long marches or when it is needed (artillery bombardment).

Look at any modern IFV or APC, do You see anywhere firing ports? No, these were deleted for better protection. Firing ports can be replaced by far more effective additional RWS and vehicle own weaponary in rotating turret.

The ICV is not merely a battle taxi.

Are you suggesting that it is merely an armoured vehicle to transport troops?

Transport them and then they do what.

While transporting them, if they are engaged, what is to be done?

 

[Damian]

No Ray, but maybe Indians have different experiences with IFV's and APC's, however countries with far greater experience in combat with use of AFV's and in AFV's designing, had resigned from firing ports.

Look at US, nor M2A2/M2A3 or currently designed GCV will have firing ports. SPz Puma or other modern IFV in Europe do not have firing ports. Israelis do not use firing ports on their Namer HAPC. It seems that Ukrainians and Russians also do not see a reason to have firing ports.

In fight dismounts should get out of vehicle, IFV will then support them with it's weapons.

 

[Ray]

Armored Personnel Carriers (APC)/Infantry Combat Vehicles (ICV)

Tasks. Mechanized infantry can be used to carry out all of the tasks required of normal infantry in ATOPS when dismounted. Due to their vulnerability in close country the employment of APCs/ICVs should be restricted. However, their characteristics permit them to operate as follows:
Rapid movement into, through or near objectives or trouble spots. APCs/ICVs enable troops to be moved speedily and with comparative immunity from distant assembly or forming-up places and be delivered, fit and fresh, in or near the trouble spot.
Use as a fire support base. When in close contact with the enemy and when the infantry have debused, the APCs/ICVs could be used to provide supporting fire to the infantry.
Roving operations (mobile columns). During ATOPS, units will often be responsible for security duties over large areas in which disorders may break out simultaneously in several centers. Mechanized infantry can be used to provide mobile columns to:
Show the flag and advertise the presence of troops in certain areas.
Suppress, by prompt offensive action, any disturbances beyond the control of the local civil authority.
Control an area in which troops are not normally stationed.
Be a reserve.
Patrol an area or given stretch of road.
Protection of sensitive points. For this task the infantry will be debussed and deployed while available APCs/ICVs can be used as follows:
By day.
To cover the sensitive point and/or approaches with fire.
To patrol certain areas or stretches of road around the sensitive point.
By night. Sited in positions to illuminate the sensitive point, or certain approaches to it, with headlights and to cover these approaches with machine-gun fire.
Road escort duties. In large scale ATOPS, convoys, administrative echelons, or vehicles will invariably require some form of armored escort. APCs/ICVs fully or partially manned are suitable for the task.
Shock action. The appearance of mechanized infantry with their APCs/ICVs on the scene of a disorder may in itself have the necessary salutary effect on terrorists or rioters.
EMPLOYMENT OF FORCES

 

[Ray]

The armored personnel carrier (APC) is an infantry transport vehicle with light armor and limited firepower (usually one or more machine guns). The APC is a "battle taxi." It is intended to carry soldiers to the combat zone, where they dismount to fight.

The infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) is designed to fight with soldiers onboard, to carry the soldiers forward without dismounting them if possible, and to support them with direct fires if they do dismount. The IFV has more protection and firepower than the APC. Also known as an infantry combat vehicle (ICV) or a mechanized infantry combat vehicle (MICV).

Gary's Combat Vehicle Reference Guide

 

[Ray]

No Ray, but maybe Indians have different experiences with IFV's and APC's, however countries with far greater experience in combat with use of AFV's and in AFV's designing, had resigned from firing ports.

Look at US, nor M2A2/M2A3 or currently designed GCV will have firing ports. SPz Puma or other modern IFV in Europe do not have firing ports. Israelis do not use firing ports on their Namer HAPC. It seems that Ukrainians and Russians also do not see a reason to have firing ports.

In fight dismounts should get out of vehicle, IFV will then support them with it's weapons.

Couple of basic facts.

India has more experience than any European country in the use of APCs, ICVs in actual combat!

When fighting through the objective, there are two ways of doing so.

1. Mounted
2. Dismounted away from the objective and fighting like regular infantry with the ICV acting as the firebase. This method is adopted when there is a minefield and the attrition thereof not being acceptable.

When mounted, the fight through the objective and fighting through the objective means fighting will ALL weapons and not merely going along in a protected move and then fanning out to protect against the Counter Attack with the weapons in built in the ICV. If that were so, what are the infantry soldiers on board doing? Have a free ride to collect medals for which they did nothing.

It is not Indians who have an unique way of using the ICV, it is universal. You may read the US and Russian military tactics book to realise so.

 

[Bhadra]

Some layman's observations:

Running on concrete cement roads. The black tops bitumen roads will be churned in no time.
Just watch the exhaust . It appears as if the entire Saudi oil is being burnt in one go..Show it to Arundhati Roy for environmental concerns !
Or even better that bearded Bengali . The environment Czar.
The external armour blocks look like jerry cans filled with water put together for consumption of the passengers ( I mean crew and other dead meat).
That tilt down is nothing as compared to a BMP coming down the knuckle end of a massive Dhora (sand dune)
from top the BMP is Gunja.... bald I mean...
The Gun / Cannon looks like a baby cock, too small for the entire size of the BMP.
Gone are the days of tracked ICV ...!!

 

[Damian]

And still Ray, Americans, Russians, Ukrainians, West Europeans, Israelis, South Koreans resigned from firing ports.

You see anywhere firing ports?

Even newest Russians IFV's based on "Armata" and "Kurganets" platforms will most probably not have firing ports to enhance armor protection. Of course You want to say that military of these countries and designers do not know what to do, and they should go after outdated fashion for firing ports?

 

[Ray]

BMP 2

Behind the turret is the troop compartment which holds six troops, the seventh sits just behind the driver. The troops sit back to back, along the centre of the vehicle. Down each side of the compartment are three firing ports with periscopes. Access to the compartment is by the two rear doors, which also hold fuel tanks, both doors have integral periscopes and the left door has a firing port.

There is nothing like 'outdated fashion' in war.

It is always a question of maximising on firepower and survival!

 

[Damian]

Some layman's observations:

Running on concrete cement roads. The black tops bitumen roads will be churned in no time.
Just watch the exhaust . It appears as if the entire Saudi oil is being burnt in one go..Show it to Arundhati Roy for environmental concerns !
Or even better that bearded Bengali . The environment Czar.
The external armour blocks look like jerry cans filled with water put together for consumption of the passengers ( I mean crew and other dead meat).
That tilt down is nothing as compared to a BMP coming down the knuckle end of a massive Dhora (sand dune)
from top the BMP is Gunja.... bald I mean...
The Gun / Cannon looks like a baby cock, too small for the entire size of the BMP.
Gone are the days of tracked ICV ...!!

What?! And especially last words, yeah right, days of tracked IFV's are gone, yeah right, probably this is why Russians, Germans and Americans will use new tracked platforms in nearest future?

You know that Americans actually see wheeled combat platforms as obsolete and in long term Strykers will be replaced by tracked GCV?

BMP 2

Behind the turret is the troop compartment which holds six troops, the seventh sits just behind the driver. The troops sit back to back, along the centre of the vehicle. Down each side of the compartment are three firing ports with periscopes. Access to the compartment is by the two rear doors, which also hold fuel tanks, both doors have integral periscopes and the left door has a firing port.

Who cares about BMP-2, this thing can barely withstand fire from 12,7mm heavy machine gun over it's sides, and 25mm M919 APFSDS fired from 25mm M242 automatic cannon can do from it a Swiss cheese.