Full Revamp Of DRDO-Commercial arm by year-end

[ppgj]

what about the circumstances of our armed forces

it is circumstances and role of armed forces.

circumstances -

1. tiny budgets for DRDO.

2. international technology denial regime.

3. still many drdo labs are under watch lists japan, US and germany...

4. time taken to overcome such tech in house.

5. GOI policies impinge on tech transfer etc...

role of armed forces -

1. no active participation in design and development (navy being an exception and to an extent airforce in the recent past)

2. bias against local products inspite of superiority.

3. not knowing what the specs to be.

4. changing them frequently.

5. when proven to be better, still sticking with mediocre ones as against the superior ones.

6. foreign lobbies in the armed forces at the cost of indigenous products.

NO, I have also mentioned a host of products which were developed by DRDO which are world class and also appretiated by the armed forces so i am not critisizing the DRDO for any thing if it sounded that way then i apologise

you do not need to apologise. you have every right to criticise or praise. all i am asking is - let the crticism be constructive, based on sound footing. it should not be for the sake of it.

I am not discussing arjun here as this is not the thread

why? this is not a thread for LCA/3D RADAR etc..too. why do you quote those??

they wanted a arjun 10 years back now with a changed doctraine with it there requirement will also change if the army does'nt want it they will not have it it is that simple we cannot force them on it

nobody is talking forcing them on IA. the fact is Arjun is superior to T-90 and moreover it is a local product giving an option to upgrade at will in the future and giving a free hand wrt ammo/spares/freedom from foreign OEM's.

Arjun was ready in 2005. the army consistently refused comparative trials. why?? did they know T-90 will be defeated??

even if Arjun was late, how come T-90 with all its problems still not resolved continue to get army's patronage??

how come they want Arjun to be complete (most solved) in every respect while T-90 gets the go by?? is it because Arjun is indian??

The armed forces are as involved as an of the countries you mentioned perhaps even more , be it the LCA,the LCH, and don't forget the missle development when they inducted most of the missle systems when they were still in developmental stage,they have been supporting its developmentirrespective of whether they failed or succeded not to mention our shipbuilding efforts INS shivalik,IAC,INS Talwar,would never have happened if it was'nt for the support of the Navy and did you forget the NAval LCA where the navy has already confirmed orders when it is still in testing is'nt

navy has been a consistent supporter of indigenous products. they have their own design centre. they saw the advantage of going local long back. they are above all wings of the indian armed forces.

airforce too is taking more interest in the recent past. more is needed here too. still better than IA.

army refuses simply. whether Arjun or Abhay or the light tank developed with 105 mm gun (while issuing RFP for light tanks)

the IAF buying 40 LCA even when it is underpowered show me an AF which does that even after 30 years show me an example of one armed forces in the world which actually buys tanks 20 years laterWHAT MORE DO YOU WANT??

30 years!!! i myself have answered you in the past. it is 17 yrs - time line is comparable to any manufacturer any where. still you keep coming back with this 30 and 40 yrs theory!! that is why i say "criticise but base it on facts".

as for the underpowered - the original specs given by IAF demanded only F-404 engine. that is why ADA went with it not the other way round!!later IAF wanted more payload and other systems which increased the weight which is why F-404 was given additional thrust in the form of F-404 IN20. now they find that too less hence the hunt for a new engine which will power the mark 2.

is that a fault of ADA/DRDO??

besides the delays are also because of international sanctions/LM and Boeing(recent) walk out/miniscule funding...

with all that ADA/DRDO have still delivered in 17 years!! is it not an achievement?? also many technologies developed via LCA are finding spaces in the other aircrafts saving foreign exchange. is it not praiseworthy?? or do you think criticism is more appropriate??

So what are you saying it is the army's fault they chose to change according to the changing times and changing technology so you are saying the the IAF should buy an a/c with an out dated spec instead of asking for upgrading it to 4th gen so they can stand toe to toe with the enemy so you are saying the armed forces is wrong when they want to field a state of the art weapon systems instead of old soviet junk they are using boss if it was'nt for the army changing there GQSR the arjun would'nt be so formidable with its state of the art pneumatic systems or its FCS or its BFMS or its engine and impressive as it is now the same goes for the LCA imagine Arjun and the LCA with the same specs first given by the armed forces and compare the present
product and you will know

you are completely missing the point. no body says specs should not be changed but what it entails is delay which is only natural. then to turn around and say DRDO is late smacks of double standars and bias. this is particularly true when delays on the part of foreign vendors are not spoken in the same breath.

also it is great that you credit the army for making Arjun what it is now. 0_0 funny they are still refusing to induct them in numbers while T-90 with heavily under powered engine, thermals issue, non existence of APU (due to space??) are ok!!!

WHAT DO you think they are doing now ? with the LCA are they not involved with it from the biginning what about our INS SHIVALIK or INS TALVAR OR IAC are not the navy involved what about the NAG,Shourya,NAMica,3DCAR Radar, WLR Radar, Akash SAM's,BFSR Radar,Rajendra radar, are the army not involved? Naval LCA who do think helped in conducting Initial trials for these products??

as i said, navy has been a front runner when it comes to indigenous route. even airforce is changing for the better.

our army is still to learn. god bless them.

AMEN.

 

[AJSINGH]

look as much we want to defend DRDO ,the fact is that when the products are needed they are not matured enough to be inducted in the Armed Forces, this can be rectified , for example IA is looking for futuristic tank in 2020,lets add another 5 years to it ,2025,i think DRDO should forget about Arjun Mk.II and start from scratch and develop state of the art tank with the help from russia ( like brahmos project ) you the tank with unmanned turret,150mm main gun,anti heliopter missile,etc ,i am sure IA is looking for similar specs. DRDO has got the funds , they just need to deliever
Now if you come to hyderabad,then you will find project of DRDO about bio fuel,i myself have seen 3 years of this project and not a single drop of fuel has been made( the project is to mix diseal with oil from seeds jutrofa plant ) and according to the sources 10crores has been allocated.What the DRDO officials do that is inspect the plant superficially ,pretend as if they have some work and then they fly away to meet the superiors and say " all is well and the project will be completed in time "

above is just an example,its about time that DRDO bucks up and deliver products on time because every year the specs of the weapons are changing because of the changing battlefield tactics

 

[nitesh]

^^
Aj singh are you trying to say that till now what ever product has been inducted world wide by any other force is matured and onDo is producing un matured products?

 

[ppgj]

look as much we want to defend DRDO ,the fact is that when the products are needed they are not matured enough to be inducted in the Armed Forces, this can be rectified , for example IA is looking for futuristic tank in 2020,lets add another 5 years to it ,2025,

futuristic tank?? army does not even know the specs for it!!

if you cared to read about the previous pages by different posters, you would see some reason to temper your criticism... alas..

i think DRDO should forget about Arjun Mk.II and start from scratch and develop state of the art tank with the help from russia ( like brahmos project ) you the tank with unmanned turret,150mm main gun,anti heliopter missile,etc ,i am sure IA is looking for similar specs. DRDO has got the funds , they just need to deliever

with Russia?? who played major traunt for T0T for T-90!!

as for the "state of the art tank" - perhaps you missed out on the news T-95 is scrapped!!

they are still to give us propulsion tech wrt Brahmos CM!!

as for as IA looking for "similar specs" - i don't doubt it even in my dreams!! is it the reason for their bias against Arjun??

150mm main gun - is that a dream revelation or a practical solution?? either way shhh..don't say it loud!! IA may hear it and will include it for future Arjun specs!!!!

as for the funds of DRDO and their deliveries, do check they have been answered in this and other threads - if you want to.

Now if you come to hyderabad,then you will find project of DRDO about bio fuel,i myself have seen 3 years of this project and not a single drop of fuel has been made( the project is to mix diseal with oil from seeds jutrofa plant ) and according to the sources 10crores has been allocated.What the DRDO officials do that is inspect the plant superficially ,pretend as if they have some work and then they fly away to meet the superiors and say " all is well and the project will be completed in time "

wow. this should take the cake.

the project only started 1 year back. supposed to be over by 2012. how come you saw it for 3 years??. chew on these -

Top News reports that India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has taken up a project to produce biodiesel from Jatropha plants. The project started one year ago and has a deadline of 2012, said DRDO scientist D. Goyary. So far, DRDO's success rate is 20%. This means they can mix 20% of biodiesel with 80% of regular diesel.

http://www.biodieselinvesting.com/b...0/02/24/drdo-to-make-biodiesel-from-jatropha/

February 17th, 2010 - 4:09 pm ICT by IANS -

New Delhi, Feb 17 (IANS) After winning appreciation for its products like juices, ready-to-eat food and mosquito repellents, India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has taken up a project to produce bio-diesel from Jatropha plants. "Five-six DRDO labs are working together to produce bio-diesel from Jatropha plants. The project started one year ago and has a deadline of 2012," DRDO scientist D. Goyary said.

"So far, our success rate is 20 percent. This means we can mix 20 percent of bio-diesel with 80 percent of regular diesel," he added.

One litre of bio-diesel produced from Jatropha costs Rs.30-40. One litre of regular diesel costs Rs.32.87.

"But then, Jatropha is a renewable source of energy," Goyary pointed out.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/business/after-juices-drdo-turns-to-bio-diesel_100321629.html

above is just an example,its about time that DRDO bucks up and deliver products on time because every year the specs of the weapons are changing because of the changing battlefield tactics

baseless criticism is what members are opposed at. be constructive and healthy in your criticism. unfounded, irrational criticism does not add any value either to you as a poster or to the debate.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

I don't understand why the armed forces are always critisized here it is not the responsibility of the armed forces to promote indegenisation, they cannot afford to get emotional if the product is good they will buy it if not they won't its that simple they have bought a lot of quality products from DRDO and recently they even ordered 124 more arjuns even when it will cost them 2.5 times more to transport these tanks from one point to another apart from maintenance DRDO has taken positive steps in working according to the recommendations of Rama rao committe they stop working on every thing from making musquito creams to missles and concentrate on core sectors for the future and aim to achieve indegenisation there

 

[ppgj]

I don't understand why the armed forces are always critisized here

if DRDO can be thrashed with baseless allegations why not the armed forces when grounds exist??
i have given some examples in the previous posts where they issue RFI's for foreign stuff while local ones have been developed. at the least they need to trial them with the foreign ones and check where they stand and induct if they perform equally or better. simply refusing does not work. you and me are all taxpayers of the country and have the right to ask even if only on a public forum provided there are grounds for such acts. refusal to buy Abhay, light tank on BMP-2 chassis, refusing Arjun in numbers while continuing with sub standard equipment does not give reasons for confidence.

it is not the responsibility of the armed forces to promote indegenisation, they cannot afford to get emotional if the product is good they will buy it if not they won't its that simple they have bought a lot of quality products from DRDO

then whose responsibility?? the encouragement comes in the form of induction and a joint effort with the developers for iterative development to make the product better and better. this applies to all countries any where in the world. otherwise ISRAEL, FRANCE would not be where they are.

no body is saying the armed forces to get emotional about products!!! infact people are saying them to be rational because war are won in such a way. to win the war, you need to procure the best you can afford and if this happens to be a local one, all the more better for the reasons i have enumerated in the past. it is a fact Arjun is superior to T-90. non induction of Arjun only says what you are saying "emotional" thinking of the army wrt T-90.

as i said in the past whether it is local or foreign, the products are trialled in the field and inducted when it meets the GSQR requirements (in IA case).

and recently they even ordered 124 more arjuns even when it will cost them 2.5 times more to transport these tanks from one point to another

but they are as many times or more better than the existing ones. =xD in the long term, going local is only going to make a big difference both in peace time and war time.

this when T-90 with all the short comings has an order for 1657 tanks!!! funny isn't it??

apart from maintenance DRDO has taken positive steps in working according to the recommendations of Rama rao committe

good if that helps.

they stop working on every thing from making musquito creams to missles and concentrate on core sectors for the future and aim to achieve indegenisation there

DRDO is a conglomerate of 50+ labs. the aims and the programmes of each are different and each is manned by different dedicated staff with expertise in those fields. jobs of one lab does not impinge on the other. so what difference does it make whether they make missiles or a cream?? do you think the same scientists work on missiles and the cream??

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

i have given some examples in the previous posts where they issue RFI's for foreign stuff while local ones have been developed. at the least they need to trial them with the foreign ones and check where they stand and induct if they perform equally or better. simply refusing does not work

So are you accusing the armed forces for buying imported equipment without any user trails? If the armed forces is partial towards indegeneous products then how do you explain many indegeneous equipments like rajendra radars, 2D & 3D acquisation radars,BFSR radars, INSAS, Missles, & all that there were foreign equivalent to those but they did not buy them? or what do you say to the constant support by the armed forces given to projects like NAG,Pinaka MBRL,LCA,LCH,agni2 & 3 and WLR, Astra BVR most of these products are still under going trials or there are some technical snags but still they are ready to buy them they are instances where they have cancelled RFP's when there are local alrenatives for them isn't that supporting indegeniasation ? ANY PRODUCT whether indegineous or forign is cumpolsarily tested if the RFP is placed by the army if they pass they will be brought and if it is local then even better even the present army chief has openly critised the MOD against the purchase process of the C-17 transport a/c without trials what do you call that?

no body is saying the armed forces to get emotional about products!!! infact people are saying them to be rational because war are won in such a way. to win the war, you need to procure the best you can afford and if this happens to be a local one, all the more better for the reasons i have enumerated in the past. it is a fact Arjun is superior to T-90

Ok then define rational or please enlighten me on how to wil a war do you think that wars are only won by the country which has the biggest or the best wepons then can you explain the wars in vietnam,or afghanistan or iraq where even after using high tech wepons there are soldiers who are dying every day why do you think that happens just because the arjun may better then T-90 does'nt mean that automatically we have the edge in ww2 the tigers and phanzer tanks were years ahed of the shermans used by the allies but did it win the war? why do you think so? there are lot of factors other then just wepons involved to win wars

but they are as many times or more better than the existing ones. in the long term, going local is only going to make a big difference both in peace time and war time.

in times of conflicts Economics plays a very defining role in winning the country which can fight a war the longest always has the edge in this case the logistics of arjun is more expensive then the T-90's which makes it very valuable which in turn means that all the enemy has to do is cut off the logistics part and they have our necks then where are the arjuns it will be even more expensive to replace an arjun

DRDO is a conglomerate of 50+ labs. the aims and the programmes of each are different and each is manned by different dedicated staff with expertise in those fields. jobs of one lab does not impinge on the other. so what difference does it make whether they make missiles or a cream?? do you think the same scientists work on missiles and the cream??

What i meant was DRDO should just concentrate on core sectors and look towards making itself more leaner having 50+ labs spread around the country is a strain on its resources and also the budget there are instenses where scientist are working on multiple projects at a time by just concentrating on core areas they can become more efficient can organise the funding and the projects even better and deliver the products on time

 

[AJSINGH]

futuristic tank?? army does not even know the specs for it!!

if you cared to read about the previous pages by different posters, you would see some reason to temper your criticism... alas..



with Russia?? who played major traunt for T0T for T-90!!

as for the "state of the art tank" - perhaps you missed out on the news T-95 is scrapped!!

they are still to give us propulsion tech wrt Brahmos CM!!

as for as IA looking for "similar specs" - i don't doubt it even in my dreams!! is it the reason for their bias against Arjun??

150mm main gun - is that a dream revelation or a practical solution?? either way shhh..don't say it loud!! IA may hear it and will include it for future Arjun specs!!!!

as for the funds of DRDO and their deliveries, do check they have been answered in this and other threads - if you want to.



wow. this should take the cake.

the project only started 1 year back. supposed to be over by 2012. how come you saw it for 3 years??. chew on these -



http://www.biodieselinvesting.com/b...0/02/24/drdo-to-make-biodiesel-from-jatropha/



http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/business/after-juices-drdo-turns-to-bio-diesel_100321629.html



baseless criticism is what members are opposed at. be constructive and healthy in your criticism. unfounded, irrational criticism does not add any value either to you as a poster or to the debate.

about the bio deseal project ,i hvae been here fro last 3 years now and the project is just off the wall of my place , so i know what i am talking about

 

[AJSINGH]

^^
Aj singh are you trying to say that till now what ever product has been inducted world wide by any other force is matured and onDo is producing un matured products?

what i am saying is that why is Arjun tank now ready , where was it when T-90S was being bought . also DRDO products are good but not good enough for Armed forces , my own father does not trust INSAS rifle

 

[AJSINGH]

AT ppgj
do not mock me , argue rationally , ask any one in Armed forces about the reputation of DRDO , they do have much to praise about DRDO , so does PM . Also tell me why cant we make clothes for siachen battelfield when we are capable enough to make Su30MKI, till date high altitude clothing is being imported , where is DROD in this case , however they will go ahead with NAG missile and what not.
in this matter i am with Armed forces because they are the one who are responsible to use the products in war ( drdo or forgein ) ,also the blame of losing a war will not comes to DRDO or HAL for that matter .


The Indian Army plans to pit a few of its Arjun MBTs against T-90S Bhisma tanks in a mock battle in the Rajasthan desert in March - April to help it determine if its should place additional orders for Arjuns.

The Indian Army, which has reservations about the DRDO developed Arjuns and prefers to equip its armor regiments with the T-90 Bhisma, is coming under intense pressure to place additional orders for Arjuns, over and above the 124 tanks that it has so far ordered.

The DRDO, as a civilian organization, has easy access to the press and has lined up journalists to crusade on its behalf in the name of indigenization and self sufficiency. DRDO bosses also have easy access to the Defense Minister.

Army generals don't have easy access to the Defense Minister and risk a court martial by going to the press directly.

Ironically, the Defense Minister controls both the army and DRDO. When it comes to arms procurement from the DRDO, he represents the vendor as well as the client. It is hard to be objective under the circumstances.

Very often our armed forces get lumped with weapon systems that they don't want.

You may or may not have noticed a concerted press campaign to show the Army in poor light for its reluctance to place additional Arjun orders.
During past trials the Arjun proved to be a very unreliable weapon system. Besides other things it was plagued by frequent engine failures.

The DRDO contends that the engine failures took place because the army deliberately sabotaged the engines! To the best of my knowledge, no investigation was ever carried out into the allegation, let alone the DRDO's charge proved.

Journalists campaigning in favor of the Arjun are high lighting DRDO's sabotage charge without mentioning that the accusation had no basis. This is shoddy journalism.

The journos are also high lighting tank characteristics such as weight, gun-caliber and power to weight ratio in insinuating that "corrupt generals" are opting for the inferior Bhisma over the more potent Arjun.

I have very little knowledge about tanks but I have a lot of respect for the Indian Army. The occasional aberrations in the conduct of Army Generals are just that, occasional aberrations. They have not shaken my faith in the Indian Army as an institution and should not shake the faith of any other Indian.

The Indian Army, is one of the finest institutions of the country, and thank god for it.

Having been a war fighter, albeit a fighter pilot, I know we all crave for the best fighting systems because our lives depend on it. I do not believe a general can ever be so corrupt as to put the life of his officers and men at risk.

There are far too many checks and balances within the Army for lobby to lump it with second grade weapon systems when a better option is available.

If the Army prefers the Bhisma over Arjun I think the matter should end there. Since it hasn't, I took it upon myself to highlight the real issues in choosing between two tanks, as I understand them.

It's not the weight of the tank, its engine horsepower, power to weight ratio, gun caliber, etc. that are as important as:

1. The reliability of a tank's mobility system.
2. Reliability of a tank's aiming and firing system.
3. Mobility of the tank. Its ability to clear obstacles, go through water and over sand.
4. Stand off range from which a tank can first engage the enemy.
5. Rapidity with which it can engage the enemy while on the move. How many times can it fire within a given time frame and with what accuracy?
6. Effectiveness of its armor protection. Manufacturers claims aren't helpful. Armor effectiveness is best established with actual trials.
7. Active protection against anti-tank missiles.

I have my take on where the two tanks stand based on my past interaction with armor corp officers. However, it is time to look at the issue afresh and the trials are being held precisely for that purpose. I understand both Arjun and Bhisma have undergone changes in the recent past.
What I would like to see is the better tank inducted into the Indian Army. The last DRDO chief made a public statement that Indian Armed Forces should accept 10% substandard armament to encourage DRDO. I consider the statement outrageous.
The reason why the better tanks needs to equip the Indian Army is because Pakistan's T-80UD tanks are at par with the Bhisma. Indeed, Pakistan's acquisition of the tanks from Ukraine triggered a knee jerk purchase of Bhismas by the Indian Army from Russia. So if Arjun is picked despite being 10% substandard, the nation should remember to turn to god, not the Indian Army the next time Pakistan acts belligerent.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/62617.aspx

A recent CAG (Comptroller & Auditor General) report stated that Arjun's imported content had risen from 27% to nearly 60% in the 15 pre-production series (PPS), substantially enhancing costs.

Reportedly a locally-designed 1500 hp engine is under development. MoD sources said the additional cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support to serially produce two Arjun regiments over the next five years would ultimately push each MBT's cost to around US $4.7 to $5.3 million, reportedly far higher than the price for the T-90S MBT.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

what i am saying is that why is Arjun tank now ready , where was it when T-90S was being bought . also DRDO products are good but not good enough for Armed forces , my own ftaher doe snot trust INSAS rifle

Good point, exactly my point too, morover they also commit to a delivery date woth the armed forces when clearly won't be possible

 

[AJSINGH]

Good point, exactly my point too, morover they also commit to a delivery date woth the armed forces when clearly won't be possible

The last DRDO chief made a public statement that Indian Armed Forces should accept 10% substandard armament to encourage DRDO. I consider the statement outrageous.
A recent CAG (Comptroller & Auditor General) report stated that Arjun's imported content had risen from 27% to nearly 60% in the 15 pre-production series (PPS), substantially enhancing costs.

Reportedly a locally-designed 1500 hp engine is under development. MoD sources said the additional cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support to serially produce two Arjun regiments over the next five years would ultimately push each MBT's cost to around US $4.7 to $5.3 million, reportedly far higher than the price for the T-90S MBT.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/62617.aspx

 

[AJSINGH]

Outgoing DRDO chief: '10 per cent deficient' weapons are fine for the armed forces!
September 08, 2009, (Sawf News) - In a recent interview to a news magazine outgoing DRDO chief M Natarajan said that weapon systems "10 per cent deficient from the so-called ideal" should be accepted by the armed forces.

He justified his contention by saying that unless the armed forces start accepting substandard weapons, DRDO will not have the opportunity to address the deficiency of those weapons!

"For you do not even give a foothold to the product. The user may get away by saying it is not my job [problem]. But someone has to care for the product," he said.

Clearly, Mr Natarajan believes there are runner ups in a war!

IMHO, in the fog of war 100% = 20% and Mr Natarajan's 90% = 0%

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/59962.aspx


now ppgj ,what do you have to say about this

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

to add to AJ singh's point the moment the arjun failed the initial trails it was automatically judged as sabotage!! it is the same case with every indegineous product, how can DRDO expect the armed forces to buy there products when they fail to deliver it when it is needed the most, the way the army is portrayed by certain jurnos was very harse with regard to the arjun tanks had they not taken three decades to develop the Arjuns, there would have been no place for the Russian T-90s in the Army, as by now even the improved Mark-II version would have been developed. But for some people who critisize the armed forces for importing instead of waiting for DRDO to deliver is ridiculous because if the security of the nation is threatened, it's the security forces who will be answerable to the people."
The indian army is and always will be one of the finest institutes in the country which never tolerates any diviations or wrongdoing from its generals, as if DRDO is a clean corruption free organisation . The belief that armed forces import because of the kickbacks involved has tarnished the forces reputation among the public. As a matter of fact, the armed forces import only because DRDO takes unacceptable time to develop military hardware. Therefore, by the time equipment is inducted into the forces, the GSQRs on which the product is developed become irrelevant and the product obsolete as other nations develop more advanced technology.The role of military in deciding the vendor to buy from is limited, hence, the services have no personal gains to make. An ex-HAL person involved in LCA project told that during a meeting with the defence chief, HAL and DRDO/ADA, the scientists knew even then that their promised delivery of the LCA program in 2010 was unachievable but they preferred to to lie to the forces to ensure that the program stayed alive and India did not buy foreign aircraft.

 

[ppgj]

So are you accusing the armed forces for buying imported equipment without any user trails?

do not twist my words. everything is user trialled which i have myself said umpteen number of times. how fair they run the trials is the point particularly when local ones are in the contest. Arjun's case is a prime example. compare that to how T-90 was inducted??

If the armed forces is partial towards indegeneous products then how do you explain many indegeneous equipments like rajendra radars, 2D & 3D acquisation radars,BFSR radars, INSAS, Missles, & all that there were foreign equivalent to those but they did not buy them? or what do you say to the constant support by the armed forces given to projects like NAG,Pinaka
MBRL,LCA,LCH,agni2 & 3 and WLR, Astra BVR most of these products are still under going trials or there are some technical snags but still they are ready to buy them they are instances where they have cancelled RFP's when there are local alrenatives for them isn't that supporting indegeniasation ?

proves the point DRDO is capable and the armed forces need to show the same support and commitment to offensive systems too like Arjun when they have proven to be better than the existing ones.

navy has committed to NLCA even before the prototype has taken to air!! that is called encouragement and shows the confidence they have in developers.

contrast that to IA, which refuses to induct Arjun in numbers inspite of its superiority. to Abhay and the light tank - they show no interset!!

even the present army chief has openly critised the MOD against the purchase process of the C-17 transport a/c without trials what do you call that?

i appreciate that.

but what happens when even after trials and proven, Arjun still gets shoddy treatment??

besides C-17 is coming for trials. here is the link -

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/article433082.ece

Ok then define rational or please enlighten me

rational is to induct a superior equipment proven in trials which the army is side stepping in Arjun's case and has emotionally attached itself to T-90.

on how to wil a war do you think that wars are only won by the country which has the biggest or the best wepons then can you explain the wars in vietnam,or afghanistan or iraq where even after using high tech wepons there are soldiers who are dying every day why do you think that happens just because the arjun may better then T-90 does'nt mean that automatically we have the edge in ww2 the tigers and phanzer tanks were years ahed of the shermans used by the allies but did it win the war? why do you think so? there are lot of factors other then just wepons involved to win wars

so why do we need t-90? t-72 or even older t-55's are still there. similarly mig 21's are still there and we can manufacture them again by opening a line so why go for SU 30 mki or MMRCA?

don't compare a civil/guerilla war situation to a real war situation. apples and oranges.

don't simplify things. there are various factors like situational awareness/quality of equipment/tactics/support/recon/intel etc.. superior equipment is one of the main factors.

in times of conflicts Economics plays a very defining role in winning the country which can fight a war the longest always has the edge in this case the logistics of arjun is more expensive then the T-90's which makes it very valuable which in turn means that all the enemy has to do is cut off the logistics part and they have our necks then where are the arjuns it will be even more expensive to replace an arjun

why don't you give us a cost analysis of logistics for T-90 and Arjun. may be all can discuss.

besides a more capable Arjun means no tank for tank induction. for 1500 T-90's you don't need 1500 Arjuns. 1000 is good enough. does it make some sense?? even Ray sir says so if you look at the relevant thread.

if your enemy is good, it does not matter whether logistics belong to Arjun or T-90 - they can be cut off. so??

What i meant was DRDO should just concentrate on core sectors and look towards making itself more leaner having 50+ labs spread around the country is a strain on its resources and also the budget there are instenses where scientist are working on multiple projects at a time by just concentrating on core areas they can become more efficient can organise the funding and the projects even better and deliver the products on time

i welcome any revamp if that helps. however your over simplification wrt missiles and creams in your earlier post has no relevance.

 

[ppgj]

what i am saying is that why is Arjun tank now ready , where was it when T-90S was being bought .

ok. even if i accept your contention can you explain and help me understand the status of T-90 even now!!!

1. why is its engine is called 1000hp while its output is only 840 hp??

2. why does not it sport APU??

3. why does it need cooling when Arjuns do not need it?? and where is the power to the AC units going to come from?? if from the engine, what about its mobility which already suffers from under power??

4. when will the issue with Thermals going to be solved??

5. if T-90 was ready in 1999, as you are assuming, why these issues are still there??

6. are these factors good enough to make them sitting ducks???

also DRDO products are good but not good enough for Armed forces , my own father does not trust INSAS rifle

it seems every member of your family seem to be in the armed forces. congrats.

 

[ppgj]

about the bio deseal project ,i hvae been here fro last 3 years now and the project is just off the wall of my place , so i know what i am talking about

so you are right or the reports i posted are right?? the project will be over only in 2012!!!

let the members here decide. =xD

 

[nitesh]

what i am saying is that why is Arjun tank now ready , where was it when T-90S was being bought . also DRDO products are good but not good enough for Armed forces , my own father does not trust INSAS rifle

So according to you the T 90 S bought was picture perfect then how come so many issues keeps cropping up which are not sorted out till now? About INSAS that's your father's personal opinion can't comment on that

 

[nitesh]

Pavanvenkatesh and ajsingh until unless we get through the process of incremental development and accepting the product till then we will not see self sufficiency coming in. Have you guys checked the history of successful product development around the world? Just examples the F 16 that people drool around was one time famous as widow maker did US air force said that they didn't wanted the plane and asked for imports? I am sure even you guys have high regards for Typhoon do you know till now it have very limited A2G mode and it is in service from a long time. Do you guys know when Gripen was introduced in service it was not capable of firing a single weapon that it sports today? Have you checked history of feared Leo and Marveka tanks? How they have been introduced in service and incremental improvements were bought in? You guys have to understand that how our institutions work under severe restrictions and still they come up with the product. Until our forces learn to support home grown products our foreign policies will be controlled by Other countries as they can always stop our weapons supply. Just an example after Pakharan II the CLAW developed for LCA which was getting tested in USA was kept there and our scientists have lost the whole test data which they have accumulated over the years and have to rebuild it. (Source: The tejas Story by retd. air marshal philip rajkumar) and this added considerable delay in our program do you know Russia has refused to share the source code of R 73 and R 77 so that we could not be able to integrate them with LCA (again the same source).

There is no easy way out. We have to go through the learning process it is not going to be easy. But until we support our institutions we could not imagine a world class MIL IND complex

 

[ppgj]

Good point, exactly my point too, morover they also commit to a delivery date woth the armed forces when clearly won't be possible

here is some good news for you. Russian forces are refusing to induct T-90. know why?? they consider it obsolete!!

Russia refuses to purchase the outdated armored vehicles
20-04-2010, 09:45 | Ground Troops Arms | author: forties
Russia's MoD in the new state program of armaments for 2011-2020 intends to refrain from purchasing weapons which don't meet modern requirements, said Deputy Defense Minister of Russia Vladimir Popovkin. In particular, it is a non-upgraded infantry combat vehicles BMP-3, armored personnel carriers BTR-80 with side exit for landing, and some other items of military equipment.
New State Program of arms will be presented for approval by the President of Russia Dmitry Medvedev in June 2010. According to Popovkin, in respect of military equipment for the Army is now being discussed refusal from the purchase of BTR-80, BMP-3 and T-90 tanks. The contract, signed in 2009 - early 2010, will be fully executed. In particular, in 2010, will be procured 150 BTR-80, 50 BMP-3 and 63 T-90.

As the newspaper notes, the Ministry of Defense of Russia in recent years been forced to buy tanks and armored vehicles in a minimal configuration, since experienced a severe shortage of funds for purchases. In particular, the military bought the BTR-80 equipped only with machine guns, while the export versions of these vehicles come with a small-caliber guns.

In September 2009, the auditor of the Accounting Chamber Nicholai Tabachkov said that the share of modern weapons supplied to the army, is only six percent. The share of modern equipment and weapons in the armed forces is about ten percent. According to the Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, by 2020 the proportion of new technology in the Russian army should be at least 70-80 per cent. For these purposes before the end of 2011 it is planned to spend about four trillion rubles.
(C) Lenta.ru

http://rpg7.org/eng/ground_troops_a...o-purchase-the-outdated-armored-vehicles.html

and here is the original Lenta.ru article -

20.04.2010, 10:10:11

Россия откажется от закупки устаревшей бронетехники
Министерство обороны России в новой госпрограмме вооружений на 2011-2020 годы намерено отказаться от закупки вооружений, не соответствующих современным требованиям. Об этом, как пишет газета "Ведомости", заявил заместитель министра обороны России Владимир Поповкин. В частности, речь идет о немодернизированных боевых машинах пехоты БМП-3, бронетранспортерах БТР-80 с боковым выходом для десанта и некоторых других образцах военной техники.

Новая госпрограмма вооружений будет представлена на утверждение президента России Дмитрия Медведева в июне 2010 года. По словам Поповкина, в отношении военной техники для Сухопутных войск сейчас обсуждается отказ от покупки БТР-80, БМП-3 и танков Т-90. При этом контракты, заключенные в 2009-м - начале 2010 года, будут полностью исполнены. В частности, в 2010 году будут закуплены 150 БТР-80, 50 БМП-3 и 63 Т-90.

Как отмечает газета, Министерство обороны России в последние годы было вынуждено закупать танки и бронетранспортеры в минимальной конфигурации, поскольку испытывало серьезную нехватку средств на осуществление покупок. В частности, военные покупали БТР-80 оснащенные только пулеметами, в то время как на экспорт эти машины идут с малокалиберными пушками.

В сентябре 2009 года аудитор Счетной палаты Николай Табачков заявил, что доля современного вооружения, поставляемого в армию, составляет только шесть процентов. При этом доля современной техники и вооружений в войсках составляет около десяти процентов. По словам премьер-министра России Владимира Путина, к 2020 году доля новой техники в составе российской армии должна составить не менее 70-80 процентов. На эти цели до конца 2011 года планируется потратить около четырех триллионов рублей.

http://lenta.ru/news/2010/04/20/outdated/

here the translation -

http://translate.google.com/transla...enta.ru/news/2010/04/20/outdated/&sl=ru&tl=en

cheers...