Full blown "ARMSGATE"

Kunal Biswas

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I have no idea what metal you are talking about there are hundred of such designations, In economical sense its worthless to set million Rs industry to produce something so small and cheap and easily available from outside..

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If i would have not able to tolerate criticism, I would never talk about upgrading them..

I like criticism but i am not in love with it, I tend to see positive more than Negative and certainly i am not love with negativity again..

C1022 steel going into screws tthat I import is not made in India. No rocket science in this grade of steel but just saying.

Ultimately we are on the same side. I give credit where its due and criticize where its due. Your problem is that you cant tolerate the criticism. Even constructive criticism. I have the good of the indian military manufacturing in my mind. And it requires a lot to do to be world class across the spectrum.
 

Yusuf

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I have no idea what metal you are talking about there are hundred of such designations, In economical sense its worthless to set million Rs industry to produce something so small and cheap and easily available from outside..

================================

If i would have not able to tolerate criticism, I would never talk about upgrading them..

I like criticism but i am not in love with it, I tend to see positive more than Negative and certainly i am not love with negativity again..
By that logic, we may well import from china than spend millions on indian research and capability.
 

Kunal Biswas

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If you compare National defense Industry with coal Industry then i cannot help you..

By that logic, we may well import from china than spend millions on indian research and capability.
 

Yusuf

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If you compare National defense Industry with coal Industry then i cannot help you..
All round development from pin to plane as we say in our parlance is important. Nothing is too trivial.
 

Kunal Biswas

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From your logic, If you feel so ..

than so be it..

There is no issue to spend if one wish to spend on national cause which will benefit us in long term and in hard days..

All round development from pin to plane as we say in our parlance is important. Nothing is too trivial.
 

Ray

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Sir, I am referring to this Rifle >



This Rifle is not INSAS 1B,1B1 but INSAS Excalibur, It was suppose to be fielded and it has all the things that we need, presently this Rifle is same as Galil ace which is participating in RFI, Its Rejection was quite odd..
Anything in the media that indicates why it is not in service?
 

sob

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@Yusuf, @Kunalbiswas

There are many components that are available off the shelf but not manufactured in India due to absence of large scale manufacturing in India to keep the costs down. We do not need DRDO/OFB to manufacture these items.

Critical technologies which are not available off the shelf need to be mastered locally. The problem happens when our people mix up the priorities.

HAL is a very good example of how to master these things. They still imports many components for MIG 21/ALH because they are not feasible to manufacture in India, but then they have taken the pain to develop alternate sources for these components. They are not bound by a single supplier.
 
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Ray

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@Yusuf, @Kunalbiswas

There are many components that are available off the shelf but not manufactured in India due to absence of large scale manufacturing in India to keep the costs down. We do not need DRDO/OFB to manufacture these items.

Critical technologies which are not available off the shelf need to be mastered locally. The problem happens when our people mix up the priorities.

HAL is a very good example of how to master these things. They still imports many components for MIG 21/ALH because they are not feasible to manufacture in India, but then they have taken the pain to develop alternate sources for these components. They are not bound by a single supplier.
Quality control is most important and this is usually shoddy.
 
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Ray

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Some important points there..

Regarding HF 24, It was ditched, HF-24 could have been re-engined with foreign engines..
HF 24's capability could not be exploited since India could not produce the engine and the foreign countries did not want to give their engines.

So the issue of re-engined is a non starter.
 
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sob

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Coming back to the Armsgate topic. Comparisons with the Bofors case is slowly building up, with many old timers drawing parallel with the way the Chopper scam is developing on the same way as the Bofors gate and co incidentally many of the players are common.

Agusta chopper scam cover-up is going the Bofors way | Firstpost

In the summer of 1987, when the Bofors scandal broke, Arun Singh, then the minister of state for defence in the Rajiv Gandhi government and a fellow Doon School-mate of Rajiv's, suggested that there was an easy way to get Bofors to reveal whether it had paid bribes to win the Indian contract.

India, he said, should exercise its "commercial clout" over Bofors – and threaten it with cancellation of the contract if it refused to cooperate with the Indian government and assist in the investigations to determine if it had indeed paid middlemen—which was expressly forbidden—to bag the order.

At the first stage, Arun Singh suggested, the Indian government should summon the Bofors chief executive to India and demand an explanation over allegations that had first surfaced in Swedish radio revelations – that the company had paid commissions to close associates of Rajiv Gandhi to secure the contract.
Arun Singh evidently thought he was acting in the best interests of the country – and of his friend Rajiv Gandhi, whom he suspected had had his name smeared without any basis. But the manner in which virtually key cabinet ministers ganged up against him to shoot down his suggestion and virtually boarded him out led him to believe that some mischief was afoot.

Arun Singh immediately resigned from the Rajiv Gandhi administration in very strained circumstances: his last meeting with Rajiv Gandhi, he recalls here, was characterised by "bitterness"
What we are seeing today, in the wake of allegations of bribery paid in the AgustaWestland helicopter deal, is a re-run of the Bofors cover-up. Defence Minister AK Antony, under immense pressure after revelations that bribes were paid to win the deal, said last week that the government would cancel the contract if it was established that bribes had indeed been paid in violation of the "integrity pact" that the company had signed.

There is, of course, no credible proof of wrongdoing yet. As of now, there is only a prima facie case based on confessions from the suspected middlemen in the deal, which are being contested by both the company and the alleged recipients of the payoffs: the Tyagi brothers, who are cousins of the former Air Chief SP Tyagi. The trial in the case is under way in Italy,
External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid trots out a red herring when he suggests, as he does here, that cancellation of the AgustaWestland contract would amount to an "overreaction" and would "affect our defence preparedness".

So when Khurshid suggests that India's defence preparedness would be compromised by even holding out the threat of cancellation of the contract to purchased overpriced helicopters for VVIP duty, it is a false alarm, which compromises India's stand at the first stage itself.

Additionally, Khurshid cites certifications from service chiefs to claim that the "quality of the product is beyond compare. Nobody has raised a question on the quality of the aircraft". That's precisely the point, Mr Khurshid: Nobody has raised a question on the quality of the aircraft: the questions, if any, relate only to the allegations of bribery. As British Prime Minister David Cameron said (here), there is a need to separate the question of the quality of the helicopter from the scandal surrounding the allegations of bribes.

But Khurshid conflates the two issues by citing the quality of the helicopter when responding to allegations of bribery.

As Firstpost has noted earlier (here), all the smoke signals indicate that the UPA government isn't overly industrious about getting to the truth of the matter – and is in fact working to sabotage the probe. The CBI hasn't so far even registered a case, which is why Interpol, from whom it sought help, said it couldn't. Italian courts too have not been keen to hand over the evidence that investigators have meticulously pieced together for fear of compromising the trial in Italy.

There is a political twist to the controversy as well. As happened with Arun Singh in the Bofors case, when the Congress wanted to pre-empt his effort to cancel the contract with Bofors, there appears to be an ongoing attempt to paint Antony as something of a lone warrior fighting to salvage his reputation with the threat to cancel the contract with AgustaWestland.

This report claims: "Significantly, Antony had so far been seen as acting on his own, and had chosen not to run his decisions past either the CCS or the Prime Minister's Office (PMO)."

That sounds ominously like a warning for Antony. Things didn't work out too well for Arun Singh when he sought to exercise India's commercial clout to cancel the contract, and in many ways Arun Singh is a far more honourable man than Antony.

Perhaps 'St Antony' should watch his back. But then, he's a consummate politician, unlike Arun Singh, and in many ways a more artful survivor. So perhaps he'll outlive this one too.
 

Kunal Biswas

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HF 24's capability could not be exploited since India could not produce the engine and the foreign countries did not want to give their engines.

So the issue of re-engined is a non starter.
Sir, I have been in blog of an test pilot of HF-24, According to him there were many option there for HF-24, It was the HAL Ajeet based on GNAT whose engine was not avilable, Unfortunately i read it long back and dont have the link to support my words here..

Anything in the media that indicates why it is not in service?
No, why would they do ?
 

Ray

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HF 24 design was for to operate in the vicinity of Mach 2, the aircraft in fact turned out to be barely capable of reaching Mach 1 due to the lack of suitably powered engines for the airframe.

There was no engines indigenous or given through import.
 
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Ray

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No, why would they do ?
Why would they not?

The same way Shukla changed tack from imports to laudatory bites about the Arjun!

Now, how come he had a change of heart?

I am sure there would be people equally flexible!
 

kshkumsin

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If you talk about Army, Army is the largest user of Indian Made Stuff, From small arms to its logistic chain so does critical instrument in medical and engg corps..

There is corruption Indeed under Political influence, That show very much deals
well sir in the case of indigenous equipment navy leads
 

Ray

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well sir in the case of indigenous equipment navy leads
That would be comparative.

If one had heard the Admiral who is the MD of Mazagaon Docks, it is not all that hunky dory.
 

kshkumsin

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That would be comparative.

If one had heard the Admiral who is the MD of Mazagaon Docks, it is not all that hunky dory.
comeon sir most of the ships are indigenous and now even an IAC i can't beleive it.


whereas IAF is yet to get its first indigenous fighter whereas IA has inducted Indigenous tanks sparringly
 

Yusuf

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A lot more coming out.

1) Abhishek Verma was appointed Political Manager by Augusta Westland
2) AV organized a Gala attended by "Serving army Generals" and politicians along with bosses of western arms manufacturers.
3) A very top politician is involved.

AV was also te person involved in Scorpene sub deal.

Verma seems to be put in jail more to protect him and the politicians so that he is not exposed to any questions and spill the beans.
 

Ray

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What a murky affair.

And the Govt shunted out VK Singh!

Anything come out of the TATRA scam?

Any defence deal scam solved by the CBI?

What an useless organisation is the CBI and so much of money is wasted on it!
 

Yusuf

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What a murky affair.

And the Govt shunted out VK Singh!

Anything come out of the TATRA scam?

Any defence deal scam solved by the CBI?

What an useless organisation is the CBI and so much of money is wasted on it!
How can you say CBI is a useless organization. It's a very useful organization. It's useful for te congress to control the opposition and save themselves from getting caught with their corrupt practices.
 
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