Full blown "ARMSGATE"

[Yusuf]

You are not sacrificing money, you are giving up your ability to stand on your own feet, you can never get the amount of weapons needed via imports for 2 million strong Army alone, But it is enough to fill the filthy corrupt`s belly ..

You have choppers but you dont want to give, You want to buy something degraded and make money, Pilots are dying, How your are saving soldiers ?, If you doubt me ask Army aviation officers if ever seen one..

You dont want Home made cannon, You want foreign Cannon, you wanted to make money didnt happen in last 25 years, Cost us Soldiers in Kargil, How you are saving soldiers ?, But in 6 months India made its cannon..

If there is indeed corruption in Rafale deal it will fall, It will be a blow but also a remind what is importance of home made fighter, Btw LCA should have been inducted long ago and many MIG-21 pilots dont have to die, Again you are not saving Soilders..

Rather these bloody businesses making an environment not just to buy from them but they are also keeping this dependence forever..

You have missed the part where I said right up that domestic production is the only way we can rid the menace. My question again is what about the interim?

Let me ask you who is not satisfied with the Arjun? Who was no satisfied with Tejas and limited orders to 40? Who rejected the INSAS?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you check my post I have already answered, Government is not keen to sort out Issues, Recent example is the IAF request regrading HAL and Gov approach for it.. Was publish in some E-news and posted here..

Armed forces top brass are very much Government ( P ) influenced, I dont think Army had issues nor Air-force on ground..Who rejected it ?

You have missed the part where I said right up that domestic production is the only way we can rid the menace. My question again is what about the interim?

Let me ask you who is not satisfied with the Arjun? Who was no satisfied with Tejas and limited orders to 40? Who rejected the INSAS?

 

[Yusuf]

If you check my post I have already answered, Government is not keen to sort out Issues, Recent example is the IAF request regrading HAL and Gov approach for it.. Was publish in some E-news and posted here..

I dont think Army had issues nor Air-force, Read the endless debated and there results in DFI you will know from keyboard and Primary users, And let me inform again as i did before in this thread, Armed forces top brass are very much Politically influenced..

Who rejected it ?

Why did the Armed forces start to get politically influenced? Are you saying that the armed forces top brass are hand in glove with the politicians and babus in siphoning money and that is why rejecting home grown products?

Any project that is taken up takes years to mature. No one person can stop it. I mean how many top brass will the politician buy out? From 1983 till now have the politicians kept buying out Army top brass to reject Arjun?

There are no easy answers on this. Fact is we need our own weapons systems. It has to be upto scratch. But the fact also is that if private Indian industry is allowed defence contracts, even then we will have corruption. The only good thing is that money will remain in India and technology will be Indian.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nor Government want to fund National Industry, Nor they want to improve it, The product good or bad goes down the drain, India have every thing to do on its own but there is no money from that, Imports is the drink on which corrupt are surviving and As i said.

These bloody thugs among us making an environment not just to import but keeping this need for import forever..

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We are better than China in designing new products, But what we should learn from them how to run things among Ourselves ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I dont feel that i need to answer these, Words will be repeated unnecessary, Recent events have exposed all these..

Why did the Armed forces start to get politically influenced? Are you saying that the armed forces top brass are hand in glove with the politicians and babus in siphoning money and that is why rejecting home grown products?

Any project that is taken up takes years to mature. No one person can stop it. I mean how many top brass will the politician buy out?.

 

[JBH22]

Why so much hue guys these choppers were meant to carry VIP in any case it would not have served any purpose.
Glad this thing has been scrapped.

 

[K Factor]

Yup, at least I am not crying about this deal since our VVIPs don't need choppers with ECM, Chaff/Flare Dipensers and MAWS. They are not flying at the border and neither in Maoist areas. Good Riddance.

 

[Ray]

Sir, With all due respect OFB perhaps made an INSAS 10 years back which was more or less same as today Rifle that we invited in RFI, Was that OFB fault ?

ARDE twiddled their thumbs ever since.

I am not aware of any development oriented research.

Are you?

Only one rifle that is a mix of many weapons to justify their existence ever since founded?

 

[Ray]

You are not sacrificing money, you are giving up your ability to stand on your own feet, you can never get the amount of weapons needed via imports for 2 million strong Army alone, But it is enough to fill the filthy corrupt`s belly ..

You have choppers but you dont want to give, You want to buy something degraded and make money, Pilots are dying, How your are saving soldiers ?, If you doubt me ask Army aviation officers if ever seen one..

You dont want Home made cannon, You want foreign Cannon, you wanted to make money didnt happen in last 25 years, Cost us Soldiers in Kargil, How you are saving soldiers ?, But in 6 months India made its cannon..

If there is indeed corruption in Rafale deal it will fall, It will be a blow but also a remind what is importance of home made fighter, Btw LCA should have been inducted long ago and many MIG-21 pilots dont have to die, Again you are not saving Soilders..

Rather these bloody businesses making an environment not just to buy from them but they are also keeping this dependence forever..

Actually, we want indigenous weapons systems and platforms?

Why?

Because we will not be left high and dry during a war if there is a foreign sanction.

However, what we want is something that works and can save lives.

If that was not the aim, then INSAS, which we ourselves designed and produced, would not be the backbone of the Army and instead we would have some foreign stuff.

Even HF 24 was indigenous and way ahead of the times, but it flaked out because we could not produce the engine!

 

[sob]

Is that farce came for Media too ? If so how come we have +2000 T-72M1 / BMP-2 / FN-MAG and there is a long list to go on..

In case of US, Just read what took to get those engines for LCA..

Making them Pvt wont do any magic, You need to have good control / administration, Even what India have now is more than enough if administrated properly ..

@Kunal Biswas, I have had the opportunity to work as a supplier to several Defence organisations and I know a fact that even for systems that have been manufactured for years in india, still have large components of imported components for which the Ordnance factories have only the drawing numbers and have to source them from the OE manufacturer.

TOT in ost cases is on paper and it is better to understand the commercial points when we get into an agreement. Unfortunately the people who carry out the negotiations do not have any skill or knowledge of manufacturing processes or the technology involved in them. You end up with drawings for components, but without the critical technology to manufacture them.

 

[Yusuf]

@Kunal Biswas, I have had the opportunity to work as a supplier to several Defence organisations and I know a fact that even for systems that have been manufactured for years in india, still have large components of imported components for which the Ordnance factories have only the drawing numbers and have to source them from the OE manufacturer.

TOT in ost cases is on paper and it is better to understand the commercial points when we get into an agreement. Unfortunately the people who carry out the negotiations do not have any skill or knowledge of manufacturing processes or the technology involved in them. You end up with drawings for components, but without the critical technology to manufacture them.

Metallurgy and machining technology is something that requires super research in India. Chinese were able to do it because they offered to become the worlds manufacturing hub while India didn't. Military and civil industry is intertwined. We need a huge boost for our manufacturing sector.

 

[Yusuf]

@sob, I agree when you say they have just part numbers coz when I went to MDL, they showed me drawings of very small components that I sell regularly and they had no clue about. It's another story that I could not become a vendor for them coz of their crazy policies of not registering traders. Funny when you think it's dealers and traders who broker defence deals in te first place.

 

[sob]

@sob, I agree when you say they have just part numbers coz when I went to MDL, they showed me drawings of very small components that I sell regularly and they had no clue about. It's another story that I could not become a vendor for them coz of their crazy policies of not registering traders. Funny when you think it's dealers and traders who broker defence deals in te first place.

And they will spend three times the amount on getting the same from the manufacturer based in some European country.

 

[Yusuf]

And they will spend three times the amount on getting the same from the manufacturer based in some European country.

That component I sell for about 2.50 each. It costs 25 from Germany IIRC. It's just a small fastener.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, I am referring to this Rifle >

This Rifle is not INSAS 1B,1B1 but INSAS Excalibur, It was suppose to be fielded and it has all the things that we need, presently this Rifle is same as Galil ace which is participating in RFI, Its Rejection was quite odd..

Only one rifle that is a mix of many weapons to justify their existence ever since founded?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I completely Understand, But till date Sob, I haven't found any foreign component in our firearms or even in Our tanks ( T-72M1 / BMP-2 ) except few small equipments, the desi stuff work same or better...

@Kunal Biswas, I have had the opportunity to work as a supplier to several Defence organisations and I know a fact that even for systems that have been manufactured for years in india, still have large components of imported components for which the Ordnance factories have only the drawing numbers and have to source them from the OE manufacturer.

TOT in ost cases is on paper and it is better to understand the commercial points when we get into an agreement. Unfortunately the people who carry out the negotiations do not have any skill or knowledge of manufacturing processes or the technology involved in them. You end up with drawings for components, but without the critical technology to manufacture them.

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Some how, Critical Metallurgy archived by India in naval ship building and Tank ( T-72M1/T-90S/Arjun MK1) manufacturing so does Small arm ?

Apparently India make its own RHA grade Steel and other types of steel for T-90S, Such technology evolved during Arjun Program ..

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You need to study before commenting things you dont know..

Metallurgy and machining technology is something that requires super research in India. Chinese were able to do it because they offered to become the worlds manufacturing hub while India didn't. Military and civil industry is intertwined. We need a huge boost for our manufacturing sector.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some important points there..

Regarding HF 24, It was ditched, HF-24 could have been re-engined with foreign engines..

Because we will not be left high and dry during a war if there is a foreign sanction.

However, what we want is something that works and can save lives.

Even HF 24 was indigenous and way ahead of the times, but it flaked out because we could not produce the engine!

 

[Yusuf]

I completely Understand, But till date Sob, I haven't found any foreign component in our firearms or even in Our tanks ( T-72M1 / BMP-2 ) except few small equipments, the desi stuff work same or better...



==========================================================

Some how, Critical Metallurgy archived by India in naval ship building and Tank ( T-72M1/T-90S/Arjun MK1) manufacturing so does Small arm ?

Apparently India make its own RHA grade Steel and other types of steel for T-90S, Such technology evolved during Arjun Program ..

------------------------

You need to study before commenting things you dont know..

We still have not mastered entire metullergy and machining. I can give you examples of ordinary day to day items. I know what I am talking about. War ship grade steel was mastered recently and is an examole of progress. A lot more needs to be done to attain complete independence from imports. Have we mastered single crystal blade engine tech?

Dont come up with exceptions and tell je I dont know anything. I come from a family that has been supplying industrial items and industry for over 100 years. I can certainly tell you a lot about quality and capability of indian industry.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Your ordinary day Sir, have nothing comparable to what goes inside Military Industry, You can certainly say word exceptional ' Tank manufacturing So does Ship manufacturing , Small Arm manufacturing and others on the list ' Exceptional but not ' Crystal blade tech ? apparently Most countries even deployed once dont have such technology but let me remind you that in India K-10 engine is quite equivalent to Russian RD-33 engine used in MIG-29 ? How is that feat ? Without mastering metallurgy, Perhaps this was too exceptional ?

We still have not mastered entire metullergy and machining. I can give you examples of ordinary day to day items. I know what I am talking about. War ship grade steel was mastered recently and is an examole of progress. A lot more needs to be done to attain complete independence from imports. Have we mastered single crystal blade engine tech?

Dont come up with exceptions and tell je I dont know anything. I come from a family that has been supplying industrial items and industry for over 100 years. I can certainly tell you a lot about quality and capability of indian industry.

 

[Yusuf]

Your ordinary day Sir, have nothing comparable to what goes inside Military Industry, You can certainly say word exceptional ' Tank manufacturing So does Ship manufacturing , Small Arm manufacturing and others on the list ' Exceptional but not ' Crystal blade tech ? apparently Most countries even deployed once dont have such technology but let me remind you that in India K-10 engine is quite equivalent to Russian RD-33 engine used in MIG-29 ? How is that feat ? Without mastering metallurgy, Perhaps this was too exceptional ?

C1022 steel going into screws tthat I import is not made in India. No rocket science in this grade of steel but just saying.

Ultimately we are on the same side. I give credit where its due and criticize where its due. Your problem is that you cant tolerate the criticism. Even constructive criticism. I have the good of the indian military manufacturing in my mind. And it requires a lot to do to be world class across the spectrum.