Full blown "ARMSGATE"

sob

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No matter what, US is not keen of transferring TOT, Javelin is an example, Without TOT there is no support for National defense research..

C-130J and P8-I have Indian Component which US refuse to give, US trade comes with strings and demands so does Inspections..

Indian Armed Forces are huge, Buying 10 - 20 wont do, We need thousands..
Nobody gives their entire technology on a platter. All the TOT agreements in the past were farce. Did you know even after decades of manufacturing Cheetah helicopters, HAL still imports large qty. for which they just have drawing numbers.

If the agreements had been honoured in full DRDO would have had access to many of the technologies they are grappling with today.
 

Yusuf

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On the other hand a very good opportunity for both private sector and public sector industries to rise.
In the interim ? We are not going to have a pvt company come up with a "Rafale" day after tomorrow.

I am worried about the immediate fallout.
 

Yusuf

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Nobody gives their entire technology on a platter. All the TOT agreements in the past were farce. Did you know even after decades of manufacturing Cheetah helicopters, HAL still imports large qty. for which they just have drawing numbers.

If the agreements had been honoured in full DRDO would have had access to many of the technologies they are grappling with today.
Exactly. We never got any good ToT. If we did, why are we struggling to make engines? Why did we struggle to make a fighter? We had ToT for so many fighters right from MiG 21.

We had ToT from Bofors and didn't develop another gun ourselves. Oh Wait we FORGOT we had ToT for 23 years till someone remembered we could use that.

Indian govt needs to open up the defence sector completely to private industry for research development and production. Let them compete.
 

bengalraider

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The problem is not with arms dealers, defence companies or with the DRDO for that matter, they simply do what they have always been doing. arms dealers are a result of intense competition to enter into lucrative arms deals in India and not the other way around . what creates these lucrative deals you ask? well the immense rot in the system that lets non-performing defense PSU bosses get away with squandering public money on producing arms that are obsolescent and low-quality. bring these men to book and open up the arms sector ot domestic private players and soon we'll have Finnmechanica's, Boeings and BAe's of our own.
 

Yusuf

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There are necessary evils in the society. Brokers/agents/dealers are one of them. Everything in this world costs money. Every service costs money. For me the most important question in this deal is not the method, but the fact that money was paid to sell inferior products due to a watered down RFQ.

I had given an example earlier on how facilitation, networking, liasoning costs money.
 

anoop_mig25

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I think there should be peptition that defence PSU`s should be headed by defence personnel only and not some IAS
 

Ray

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MJ Akbar

Propaganda darshan

Thank heaven for little Doordarshans . An offshoot of the government-controlled TV behemoth, Doordarshan Bharati, broadcast a moving hour-long documentary on the late genius Ustad Amir Khan, at least 35 minutes of which was free from the excesses of a garrulous presenter and experts tripping over their own repetitions . This unknown channel had the pawmarks of its parent's ethos: a logo like a design patch from a 19th century sari; a script font quivering in a style that was synonymous with deep emotion in the 1950s. But whenever Doordarshan dips into that treasure house, its archives, there is magic.

This should be Doordarshan's true public calling. It should eliminate news from its oeuvre, since it is run by politicians. News is almost always injurious to any government's health. Propaganda is safer, so Doordarshan is ordered to sell propaganda as news. Why should our taxes pay for political propaganda?

You can measure a government's desperation by the effort it puts into disinformation. Doordarshan reported the AgustaWestland scandal not, as others did, with evidence gathered by the Italian police, but with stress on some heavy breathing by our defence minister, St Antony of Kerala, who suddenly discovered the virtues of transparency and "experts" of the sort who claimed they had never witnessed such ministerial integrity ever before. There was, naturally, no mention of AK Antony's shocking silence over the past 11 months when he repeatedly shrugged off details of the scandal brought to his notice.

Fortunately, the Italian government did what the Indian government refused to do: investigate on its turf. Antony remained curiously unmoved even when the name of a service chief popped up, with implications on the credibility and morale of the force. A Member of Parliament, Prakash Javadekar, wrote to him. Antony continued to do nothing. Why? Antony calls himself an honest politician. If, therefore, Antony was not protecting himself, who was he protecting?

The defence ministry's explanation for inaction was silly. It sent a request for information to Rome through the external affairs ministry. When it got nothing, it did nothing. But this was always an Indian crime as much as an Italian one. Italy did not wait for information from India; why did India wait for Italy?

In any cover up, deft use is made of that extremely useful fish called the red herring. A shoal of facts, mostly irrelevant, is thrown into the stream of information to divert the chase. Let's keep this simple.

What are we looking for? Evidence of bribes through agents. The concern is not about the quality or specifications of the helicopter, which may all be very good indeed, but the fact that commissions were given to honour what former Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi has called the rules of the system. According to the confession by Guido Haschke, the principal middleman, to the Italian police, bribes began to flow from 2007 and continued till 2011. We know who was in power in Delhi then. Haschke got 20 million euros, and allegedly passed on 12 million to Sanjeev and Rajiv Tyagi, relatives of ex-IAF chief SP Tyagi. Why did the Indian government look the other way?

There is at least one good political reason for Antony's prevarication. It is reasonable to assume that he hoped that delay would push the investigation process beyond the general election in 2014. This government's bliss is directly proportionate to voters' ignorance. Antony's shock at Italy's speed was evident on his face.

The manipulation of time is part of political strategy. CBI moves rapidly against an electoral adversary of the Congress like Jagan Reddy. CBI becomes immobile when told to move in the coal block fraud, since friends and cronies of ministers are involved. Five months ago, after massive public outcry, CBI was given charge of "coalgate" . We have just learnt from CBI's director Ranjit Sinha, who appeared before a parliament committee, that his agency has not yet received files he asked for. The distance between the two offices can be covered by a pleasant walk, but neither demand nor delivery was considered worth any hurry.

Jagan Reddy has been repeatedly denied bail on the specious argument that, despite being out of power, he might still have enough influence over officials to subvert their investigation. Compare this with the generosity towards coal minister Shriprakash Jaiswal, who is suspected of being complicit in the scam; he is close to the owners of AMR Iron and Steel Pvt Ltd, one of the beneficiaries. Jaiswal was not even shifted to another portfolio, let alone dropped. Officials in charge of files report to him. Should we be terribly surprised if CBI cannot get them?

Once there were double standards. We have raised the game to triple standards. But democracy has its own way of rescuing truth from a maze, and handing it to independent media, en route to the voter.

Propaganda darshan by The Siege Within : MJ Akbar's blog-The Times Of India
 

Ray

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The interesting part of the Defence deals, where corruption is detected after some equipment has been inducted, like the Bofors, HDW and this Augusta Westland deal is that by blacklisting, the spare and other issues are stopped.

It results in the equipment suitable for the period of time that the initial shipment of the equipment and the spares that has been catered for.

Thereafter, it becomes a white elephant or spares are bought at exorbitant prices!

In other words, it becomes a perennial cash cow!
 

SPIEZ

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In the interim ? We are not going to have a pvt company come up with a "Rafale" day after tomorrow.

I am worried about the immediate fallout.

The tree doesn't grow in a day.

In order to see results of the future, we need to start sowing today.

We might not have a rafale today but 5 or 10 years down the line we might have our own artillery if proper steps are taken. Those are the baby steps we need to take towards indigenous arms industry. Maybe we can invest in the research of critical equipment and get both intellectual rights and the weapons..
 

Ray

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Who get's a say in GSQR?

Why are we going for a foreign gun?
Why are we going for a foreign tank?
Why are the INSAS being faded out?
Why were the Nags never inducted?

Maybe for the actions of a few, the whole army faces heat in more ways than one. They end up having no weapons?
The GSQR is made by the Army.

We end up having nothing tangible because the DRDO is bureaucratic in approach and does not have the environment for genuine research or experimental work and is even more pathetic that it cannot even do reverse engineering.

Hence, foreign material.

And that suits those who wish to line their pocket..

And then it is found out and the deal is cancelled and those who have had their hands in the till laugh their way to the bank, knowing fully well that there will be a whole lot of smoke and mirrors and nothing will come out! all will still be safe for the next show to begin!
 

SPIEZ

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The GSQR is made by the Army.

We end up having nothing tangible because the DRDO is bureaucratic in approach and does not have the environment for genuine research or experimental work and is even more pathetic that it cannot even do reverse engineering.

Hence, foreign material.

And that suits those who wish to line their pocket..

And then it is found out and the deal is cancelled and those who have had their hands in the till laugh their way to the bank, knowing fully well that there will be a whole lot of smoke and mirrors and nothing will come out! all will still be safe for the next show to begin!
Indian defense procurement is as complex as the Indian political system.

But when you go to the market, you are bound to get cheaper more reliable weapons that fit the bill. For example the AK 100 series, but such weapons hardly find a place in India.Instead we see the sophisticated Tavor.

Also please share your views on the Arjun tank. I believe the Arjun in every way is better than the T90. It has equipment which the imported T90 doesn't even have.
The expense might be high, but compared to other procurement I m sure that Arjun can find a place.

The other negative factor is the weight. But it was specifically designed keeping in mind the requirements of the army. However the same army doessn't seem to be interested.

You can correct me if I am wrong on any points I have mentioned.
 

Yusuf

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The tree doesn't grow in a day.

In order to see results of the future, we need to start sowing today.

We might not have a rafale today but 5 or 10 years down the line we might have our own artillery if proper steps are taken. Those are the baby steps we need to take towards indigenous arms industry. Maybe we can invest in the research of critical equipment and get both intellectual rights and the weapons..
My question remains. What about today?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Is that farce came for Media too ? If so how come we have +2000 T-72M1 / BMP-2 / FN-MAG and there is a long list to go on..

In case of US, Just read what took to get those engines for LCA..

Making them Pvt wont do any magic, You need to have good control / administration, Even what India have now is more than enough if administrated properly ..

Nobody gives their entire technology on a platter. All the TOT agreements in the past were farce.

Exactly. We never got any good ToT. If we did, why are we struggling to make engines? Why did we struggle to make a fighter? We had ToT for so many fighters right from MiG 21.

We had ToT from Bofors and didn't develop another gun ourselves. Oh Wait we FORGOT we had ToT for 23 years till someone remembered we could use that.

Indian govt needs to open up the defence sector completely to private industry for research development and production. Let them compete.
My question remains. What about today?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Sir, With all due respect OFB perhaps made an INSAS 10 years back which was more or less same as today Rifle that we invited in RFI, Was that OFB fault ?

We end up having nothing tangible because the DRDO is bureaucratic in approach and does not have the environment for genuine research or experimental work and is even more pathetic that it cannot even do reverse engineering.

Hence, foreign material.
Does China follows the same ? This sound me more like a excuse to keep corruption alive in our society..

There are necessary evils in the society. Brokers/agents/dealers are one of them. .
 

Yusuf

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Sir, With all due respect OFB perhaps made an INSAS 10 years back which was more or less same as today Rifle that we invited in RFI, Was that OFB fault ?



Does China follows the same ? This sound me more like a excuse to keep corruption alive in our society..
It's not about keeping corruotion alive. Businesses have their expenses.
 

Yusuf

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Is that farce came for Media too ? If so how come we have +2000 T-72M1 / BMP-2 / FN-MAG and there is a long list to go on..

In case of US, Just read what took to get those engines for LCA..

Making them Pvt wont do any magic, You need to have good control / administration, Even what India have now is more than enough if administrated properly ..
I am not denying that we didn't make those. But we didn't learn anything from it either. We kept assembling.
 

K Factor

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Politicians in India are not bothered about finding the guilty. They just want to ensure that the opposition does not get ammunition for the next election.
However, sadly these scams have shaken my faith in the Armed Forces (and I am feeling very depressed to have to say this). and I for one sincerely now am thinking on the lines which I did not want. Maybe there is a concerted effort to sabotage the efforts of the Indian Defence Industry? Unless you select Arjun, use it extensively, how is it expected to improve? Maybe the reason is that there won't be any kickbacks from DRDO and HVF?
Sad state of affairs - we need a revolution, the common man is losing faith in the system and on the country.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Apparently the kind of businesses you mentioning seen only as means of corruption only, deal or no deal, there are endless chapters since independence and cost Solider life and Country sovereignty..

Are you putting importance of corruption over Solider body bag ?

=================================================

And then How did India like a country able to design and Manufacture world class Tanks And Air-crafts & Ship so does Small Arm ? And if i am not wrong they are evolving, So how does your comment pass here ?

I am sure you are aware of how Government decline to fund National Industry & To Push money for Imports ad now we have scams let it be artillery, Small arms, Helicopters or Just a small Jeep ..

It's not about keeping corruotion alive. Businesses have their expenses.
I am not denying that we didn't make those. But we didn't learn anything from it either. We kept assembling.
 

Yusuf

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Apparently the kind of businesses you mentioning seen only as means of corruption only, deal or no deal, there are endless chapters since independence and cost Solider life and Country sovereignty..

Are you putting importance of corruption over Solider body bag ?

=================================================

And then How did India like a country able to design and Manufacture world class Tanks And Air-crafts & Ship so does Small Arm ? And if i am not wrong they are evolving, So how does your comment pass here ?

I am sure you are aware of how Government decline to fund National Industry & To Push money for Imports ad now we have scams let it be artillery, Small arms, Helicopters or Just a small Jeep ..
No I want to sacrifice money to get weapons and equipment. In time to save our soldiers from body bags.

What has all the scrapped deals due to corruotion charges got us? No arty for 25 years. No choppers to supply Siachen. I am only afraid about the Rafale coz I feel something may happen on that front. It will be a body blow to the IAF if the deal falls. I don't care about the VVIP choppers as I don't care about those turds.
 

Kunal Biswas

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You are not sacrificing money, you are giving up your ability to stand on your own feet, you can never get the amount of weapons needed via imports for 2 million strong Army alone, But it is enough to fill the filthy corrupt`s belly ..

You have choppers but you dont want to give, You want to buy something degraded and make money, Pilots are dying, How your are saving soldiers ?, If you doubt me ask Army aviation officers if ever seen one..

You dont want Home made cannon, You want foreign Cannon, you wanted to make money didnt happen in last 25 years, Cost us Soldiers in Kargil, How you are saving soldiers ?, But in 6 months India made its cannon..

If there is indeed corruption in Rafale deal it will fall, It will be a blow but also a remind what is importance of home made fighter, Btw LCA should have been inducted long ago and many MIG-21 pilots dont have to die, Again you are not saving Soilders..

Rather these bloody businesses making an environment not just to buy from them but they are also keeping this dependence forever..


No I want to sacrifice money to get weapons and equipment. In time to save our soldiers from body bags.

What has all the scrapped deals due to corruotion charges got us? No arty for 25 years. No choppers to supply Siachen. I am only afraid about the Rafale coz I feel something may happen on that front. It will be a body blow to the IAF if the deal falls. I don't care about the VVIP choppers as I don't care about those turds.
 

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