Frontier Infrastructure: What's up on the PRC or Chinese side?

Discussion in 'China' started by pmaitra, Jun 22, 2013.

  1. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Folks I am done with Aksai Chin and have done a write up that should hopefully appear soon

    I am moving my attention to Arunachal Pradesh and the Chinese infra across the border. Now this is an area that is much more difficult to study because of forests and valleys unlike flat Aksai Chin. So this thread will go quiet as far as I am concerned until I have made some progress.
     
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  2. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Let me start the first post about the Chinese side of the Arunachal Pradesh border with a curious finding. There is an area about 50 km north of Tawang that the Chinese have asked Google earth to blur. And Google earth have obediently blurred images of installations that the Chinese do not want prying eyes to see.

    In fact there is an entire rectangular area 10 km long and 4 km wide that has been specifically blurred. This is something that was not visible anywhere in Aksai Chin


    Hopefully Indian intel will know what is going on here - an area that is just 30 km from the border. Click on image for larger view

    kmz: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bZ3ZOTEtZdG1xYlE/edit?usp=sharing

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013
  3. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    If you enable the "community" layer of Google earth you will discover a curious fact. Other than main Highways, Chinese roads up to the border are not marked. But the presence of roads can be guessed by lines of photographs where tourists are allowed. Still, there are other roads where the Chinese either do not allow tourism or block photographs. An example of both types of areas is seen in the image below. The white polygon shows the presence of many tourist photos along a road that I have not traced (it is visible). The yellow polygon shows roads up to the border with India (traced in green by me) with helipads and border posts. Thes roads are neither marked on google Earth, nor are there many tourist photos.

    In contrast Indian roads are marked up to the border and photos exist even of border posts and soldiers. It is this cagiiness and secrecy that China uses to create an aura of mystery and suspense. chinese chaddis must be utaroed and they need to be made nanga-shameshame

    Enlarge image by clicking on it and seeing it on Photobucket

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013
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  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Fascinating is the word!
     
  5. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    While I work on the Arunachal Pradesh border, here is a little quiz. Look at the image below - click and see the original size if need be and guess which side is Tibet and which side is India and say why you believe that one side is China occupied Tibet and the other India. Will post my answer in a separate post later. Here is a hint. It is left side-right side. The border runs up-down

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Since no one has taken a shot at my quiz I will post the answer anyway because it is an important observation. In the image above a river can be seen snaking up from the bottom left corner to the middle of the image after which it moves across the picture to the right edge. The left half of the river can be seen to have light brown areas of deforestation on its banks. At about the middle of the picture the deforestation stops and there is only vegetation (thick jungle) on either side of the river. This marks the India-China border

    The deforested part represents the Chinese side and the part with thick jungle the Indian side.

    The significance is as follows. The Chinese build great roads along river banks whihc are "natural passes". Building a road needs deforestation and once the orad is built, there is "development" and small towns are built up leading to further deforestation and erosion. On the Indian side in Arunachal Pradesh the roads have not been built along river banks. Hence no deforestation, but ne development either.

    The interesting thing to me here is that if the Chinese do mount an attack from one of these areas (to be detailed in later posts) they will end up in thick jungle as soon as they enter India.
     
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  7. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    I am happy to announce that the article about Chinese roads and infrastructure in Aksai Chin is now on the DFI front page. Thanks to all who encouraged me and supported the discussion. Am working on Arunachal Pradesh - but it will need some weeks
    Indian Defence Analysis -
     
  8. nik22

    nik22 Regular Member

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    Great effort Sir!
     
  9. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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  10. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    fow the past few decades following 1962 war india intentionally didn't develop our border infrastructure for the same reason.the chinese forces wont be having any roads to come or buildings to stay in indian territory if they try another war
     
  11. Neuve_Chapelle

    Neuve_Chapelle Regular Member

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    You have clearly spent lot of time researching this. Thanks for the quality product and I will wait for the follow-up on the Eastern Sector.

    A few comments; italicized text is copied from your article and since DFI does not allow me to post URLs I had to hack their prefixes :

    1). The approach road here has been built along the banks of a river called the Kizil Jilga which extends from the LAC right into Chinese held Aksai Chin. : The river is called Chip Chap River. You can see it on "upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/China_India_western_border_88.jpg" as flowing east from DBO.

    2). Qizil Jilga was a caravan stop on the Ladakh artery of silk route, located about 6 kms north of the point where Chip Chap flows into the Qaraqash River. It has been in the news about 2 years ago for caravans of a different nature, that I will touch upon next.

    3). The Chinese are known to house missiles and military equipment in mountain tunnels, but the purpose of this tunnel is unclear. : The 'defenceforumindia.com/jh4cz/assets/34.jpg' provided alongside this line is from Saidullah (what the Hans have re-christened as Xiadulla). This along with Qizil Jilga is suspected to be a missile storage facility. News article at 'hindustantimes.com/India-news/NorthIndia/China-creeping-up-in-Ladakh/Article1-766140.aspx'.

    4). As mentioned earlier, to the south of these Chinese positions near DBO, the LAC has no sign of any Chinese roads or infrastructure for a distance of about 100 km. : You may want to check out the co-ordinates (35° 1'31.63"N, 78°14'32.88"E) on the satellite imagery from Nov 2012. It is a Chinese roadhead (again not all-weather), but a roadhead nevertheless. I do not have the privilege to send private messages or I would have sent you my 2 cents on why I think this road is more important than the one leading to DBO.

    A few others that I am not sure I want to post here.

    In all, a trailblazing effort; so much that it made me register and post on this site. Look forward to more.
     
  12. Neuve_Chapelle

    Neuve_Chapelle Regular Member

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    The irony of it - the white polygon leads to Namka Chu (1962), and the yellow polygon abuts Sumdorong Chu (1987). Both losses.
     
  13. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Water from Raki Nala flows in east and west. The flow toward the east is the Chip Chap River and empties into Shyok river. The flow toward the west is called the Qizil Jilga and flows into the Karakax river.
    Qizil Jilga is a Turkic term. Qizil means red, and Jilga means a water body. It is a river, not a point. Yes, there is a point marked in Google Earth, but it is actually the entire river valley.

    Please refer to:
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...to-indian-territory-ladakh-96.html#post724196
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...o-indian-territory-ladakh-105.html#post724891
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...o-indian-territory-ladakh-117.html#post725489 (this is the best)
     
  14. Neuve_Chapelle

    Neuve_Chapelle Regular Member

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    Chip Chap flows east, and not west. Shyok is to the west of DBO, whereas Qaraqash is to the east. Please check your map again.

    Raki Nala is recent coinage. The traditional name is Lungnak Lungpa, and it flows north-south.

    Not sure if I even want to respond to that. For starters Jilga is valley (and not water). See here 'books.google.com/books?id=Wjr5rDBviaEC&q=%22qizil+jilga%22&dq=%22qizil+jilga%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zmtfUtasMsHh4APK2IDABA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ'.
     
  15. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Thanks for the informative inputs. And welcome to DFI. We may have interacted elsewhere I suspect.

    I have marked the Raki Nala, Kizil Jilga and Chip Chap river in my placemarks linked elsewhere. The three features are like an inverted "T". with the vertical limb of the "T" being the Raki Nala coming down to a point near DBO where it joins the horizontal limb of the "T". The western (Indian) part of that horizontal limb is the Chip Chap river and the eastern part inside China occupied territory is called Kizil Jilga I think. The roads around Kizil Jilga are well developed and heavily occupied. There are tunnels and at least two significant bridges which would be prime targets.

    The placemark that you posted could well be a road although I am not able to see it because the area is snowbound., In fact I have marked a road that ends 10 km east of the point that you linked and the road you speak of could be a continuation of the same road that I was unable to follow. t runs along a river valley. The image, taken in April 2009 shows the area to be snowbound - which is not surprising (for April). I wonder if the area becomes clear of snow in the June to September period.

    In the little northwestern area outside of Aksai Chin with a lot of tunnels I saw trucks which I initially thought were missile carrying truck - but there is some doubt about that so I did not mention them - and in any case the areas is technically just outside Aksai Chin.
     
  16. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Yellow polygon has a huge area that has been blurred on Google Earth - clearly at the request of the Chinese government - so there is some military stuff going on there.

    Than you for re kindling my interest in this topic. I need to get back into the groove because I have been spending time doing different stuff.
     
  17. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    No.

    Chip Chap flows to the west, and Kizil Jilga flows to the east.

    Link: http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5179/dbosectorwaterflow.png

    Go to my links, and there are further references, including from mountaineering expeditions. Please read those. The map you posted is not accurate and not well marked.

    Yes, we have established that. Does my map show anything otherwise?

    Perhaps. I have seen lungpa used both for a place (any inhabited place) or a brook (nala).

    I agree that it is a valley. I disagree that it is not water. Please see the references, or better still, go to Google Earth and have a close look. It is obvious there is a river. It could mean both in case of Kizil Jilga. Shyok is the name of a river as well as a valley. I will add your reference to my original post.
     
  18. Neuve_Chapelle

    Neuve_Chapelle Regular Member

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    We have, and glad to be talking to you again :)

    The river valley part could well be one interpretation, but per the 1:250,000 topographic map I use, the spot is marked as "Qizil-yilga (camping ground)". Today it sits astride the trunk road connecting the Chip-Chap valley to the Aksai Chin Hwy. Historically various authors since 19th century have used Qizil Jilga as connoting a place/stage/stop and not a valley.

    as examples see here: 'books.google.com/books?id=-nffAAAAMAAJ&q=qizil+jilga&dq=qizil+jilga&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CW9fUpnzK7bI4AOn3ICwCw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA'
    and here: 'books.google.com/books?id=rWKy6DOTO9YC&pg=PA44&dq=qizil+jilga&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CW9fUpnzK7bI4AOn3ICwCw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=qizil%20jilga&f=false'
    and here: 'books.google.com/books?id=rJs9AAAAMAAJ&q=qizil+jilga&dq=qizil+jilga&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CW9fUpnzK7bI4AOn3ICwCw&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg'

    But then I will give you that the HT article re: missile storage may be referring to the valley interpretation and not the stage bit.

    The road is there :) As I said earlier, it is one area we will want to keep coming back to.
     
  19. Neuve_Chapelle

    Neuve_Chapelle Regular Member

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    Can you provide the co-ordinates of the blurred patch? On GE, I can see the road from Tsona Dzong to Namka Chu clearly along with PLAs garrison towns of Le, Lipo, and Trima.
     
  20. Neuve_Chapelle

    Neuve_Chapelle Regular Member

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    On images from an alternate source, the area shows building materials lying around. So some construction activity in progress.
     

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