Frontier Infrastructure: What's up on the PRC or Chinese side?

Discussion in 'China' started by pmaitra, Jun 22, 2013.

  1. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    So far I have concentrated on the northern part of the LAC in north west Aksai Chin near DBO.

    Next I will move to the south-west area of the LAC to the Chushul area. The Chushul area differs from the northern parts near DBO in three significant ways. First, Chinese logiistics lines are somewhat shorter - the two main roads to the area are 120 and 150 km long (as per my measurements that straighten out minute road curves). Secondly, the roads do not run through Aksai Chin as they do in the north but in westen Tibet. Thrid, and possibly most significant is the fact that the area, and the access roads themselves are 800 meters to 1000 meters lower in altitude than Aksai Chin. For this reason there are human settlements along the roads - although some of them clearly look like "planned" Chinese settlements brought in by the PLA rather than indigenous Tibetan villages. there is some vegetation and there are farmlands, hay and green farm plots visible.

    The condition of the roads themselves appears to be somewhat better than the roads in Aksai Chin, but here again long stretches still appear "kaccha" and simply cross rivers without any sign of bridges or other construction work.

    The area near the LAC close to Chushul saw some of the fiercest battles in 1962. The two roughly parallel green coloured roads are the two main Chinese roads leading to the rergion from the main G 219 highway (in blue). These two roads are like two brackets that exactly enclose the geography in the region. At the LAC there are two long (not oval) east-west lakes. The northern lake is the longer one and is called Pangong lake. (blue letters in map)The western reaches of Pangong lake are under Indian control. The more northen one of the two Chinese roads runs on the north shore of Pangong lake and ends at the LAC.

    About 15-20 km south of Pangong lake is another lake called the Spangur lake (again in blue letters in the map below). The second Chinese road is on the south shore of this lake. The area between the two lakes is mountainous and there appear to be no visible lakeside roads along the narrow strip of land between the two lakes. There is however one road that I have labelled as "Insane zig-zag road" that leads from the north shore of Spangur lake (the southern lake) to the south shore area of Pangong lake (the northern lake). This road has about 106 hairpin bends over a length of about 6 km and the road itself must be 20 or 30 km long over this segment.

    Surprisingly I was able to spot no boats or wakes of boats or jetties with boats anywhere on these lakes.

    All these features can be examined using the kmz file linked below.

    About half of the southern lake, Spangur lake was under Indian control in 1962, but the border was pushed back up to the current LAC which is at the western end of Spangur lake. Chushul lies in this area, which is to the west of the end of spangur lake and south of Panging lake. There appears to be an unpaved airstrip just to the west of Spangur lake and I suspect this is the now unused Indian airstrip at Chushul.

    I post the overview map below along with the Google earth kmz file. I will post details I have found and my comments in later posts

    kmz file: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3J...0B3JNY4IY8u2bTjUyak9KajN5WFU/edit?usp=sharing

    Overview image- click on image to see original
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
    amoy likes this.
  2. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Along the road on the south bank of Spangur lake, just 6 km from the LAC is a Chinese military installation with a large Chinese flag made of materials that clearly show the Stars on the flag
    kmz: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bbG42b1JVVVBZLXc/edit?usp=sharing
    [​IMG]


    Two km inland, near the above base are comunication satellite dishes and a tower
    kmz: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bUVhNZG9xejQ3a0U/edit?usp=sharing
    [​IMG]


    60 km from the LAC along the south bank road from Spangur lake is a huge residential type complex with many buildings and probably more than 50,000 sq ft floor area.
    kmz: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bY3hKVUo5em5Ed2M/edit?usp=sharing
    [​IMG]

    What is surprising is that I cannot see any vehicles either in the bases or roads. Not too much activity at the time of taking of photo. If it takes 4 hours to traverse the length of the south bank road - then it means that there were no vehciles for about 4 hours around the time the photo was taken. And where are the vehicles in the bases? Where is the fuel stored?
     
  3. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    33,265
    Likes Received:
    19,462
    Location:
    EST, USA
    For the last photo, residential complex i.e., I have seen similar things in the deserts of Mongolia. Do check them out. Looks like houses with backyards and a small agricultural field or cattle field. Could be a village.
     
  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    43,132
    Likes Received:
    23,689
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Excellent maps and interpretation.
     
  5. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    There is definietly a vilage to the east (right side) but these buildings are all 100 feet long and 25 to 30 feet wide. They are huge and are more likely to be a residential complex (and perhaps farms too) sponsored by the PLA which is known to have business interests. It would make sense for them to settle ethnic Hans in the area and grow or rear what they can. But twenty-five 2500 sq foot buildings in a desolate region on a road that leads to the Indian border where the Chinese wear their militarty presence "on their shoulder" as it were is unlikely to be anything innocent.

    Here is an image of Shanzong village on the same road. This looks like a village and the building sizes are more in keeping with what one woud expect of a village
    [​IMG]
     
  6. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Before i move on to another area of Aksai Chin let me post the other stuff fof note - this time on the road that runs along the north bank of Pangong lake. The roads seems to end tamely at the LAC, in a loop as usual. The road is about 120 odd km long from G 219 to the LAC. There appear to be 2-3 camps with tents along the shore and at least one area that appears to be a military base. The interesting stuff is that there is one area that has a huge image of a human face with men sihouetted in front, and below that is a map of China and finally at the bottom are several messages in Chinese. This looks like standard PLA "Long Live the Revolution" (or Levorution?) but several dozen meters in size to be visible to spy satellites especially those satelleites that can read Chinese :cool2:
    kmz: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bcS12b2d3NFdCazA/edit?usp=sharing
    [​IMG]


    Nearby is the first jetty I spotted on Panging lake
    kmz: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bcnpBa2dZa3JVSEk/edit?usp=sharing
    [​IMG]
     
    Rage, LalTopi and Kunal Biswas like this.
  7. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    In the last few pages I have posted details of Chinese roads in the northern part of the LAC at Aksai Chiun (near DBO) and the southern part od the LAC (near Chushul).

    There remains a central part of the LAC between the above two areas which I will call the "mid LAC" area. I have marked the area in a white polygon in the overview map below. As usual the Chinese roads are in green and the G 219 is in blue on the right (east) side. In the west (left) is a blue line marking a river that I have marked as "unidentified river".

    There are a few things to note in this area. The first thing is that this "mid LAC area" is about 150 km long (as a straight line ) estending from Depsang plain in the north to Pangong Lake in the south. The Chinese have only 4 roads leading up to the border in this 150 km length.

    Why is this so?

    For that one needs to understand that the LAC between Depsang plain and Pangong lake is made up of high mountains rising to over 6000 meters (20,000 feet) which serve as a natural physical barrier. On the Indian side the mountains drop off steeply for more than 1000 to 1500 meters into the Shyok river valley in the north and another unidentified river (marked in blue on the map) in the southern area just north of Pangong lake.

    In the middle of this formidable physical barrier the Chinese have found two areas where their roads poke out to the LAC. In each area they have two finger like roads snaking out - I have given these roads the names "pincer north" and "pincer south" on the map below because each has a twin pincer like part poking out up to the LAC. Pincer North overlooks the unidentified river in Indian hands across the LAC, while Pincer south overlooks the northern end of Pangong lake where India has a helipad.

    There are two approach roads to pincer north and pincer south. One is a connection from the north shore of Pangong lake leading to a point near pincer south that I have called "Junction X". It is an X shaped junction of 4 roads that has an interesting feature that I will describe later. The other main road from G 219 to pincer north is about 150 km long. I have lebelled it on the map as "rough road" because the road appears rough - and simply crosses a lot of streams and river beds with no bridge or other pucca infrastrcuture. neither pincer north nor pincer south appear to be connected by any all weather roads.

    Please download or click on the kmz file for the area that I have linked and enlarge the palce marks to see what I have marked. these mid LAC roads have a lot of vehicles moving and parked. Junction X appears to have a palce that looks like hardened conctere shelters to me (details later). There seem to be many small military posts along the area.

    kmz file: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bOWs3cGdJcElOYXM/edit?usp=sharing

    Overview map of "mid-LAC area". The white polygon is the mid LAC area and the roads. Please dee kmz file above for details.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2013
  8. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    There are two interesting features from the area that I have marked as "junction x" (location available from the kmz file above)

    One is what appears to be a set of hardened concrete shelters
    kmz: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bbHpQN01HNm9YTU0/edit?usp=sharing
    [​IMG]

    The area near the shelters shows some work that I am unable to identify. What could the Chinese be doing here?
    [​IMG]
     
  9. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    33,265
    Likes Received:
    19,462
    Location:
    EST, USA
    From the images, it looks like it is a livestock dwelling for the village nearby. This itself does not seem to have many houses. Look at the brown boxes. Those are probably fenced out livestock housing areas, with a few sheds (I can see only three) to house shepherds.
     
  10. natarajan

    natarajan Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    752
    They are having such infra in occupied territories but our conki is busy dismantling even the sheds available for soldiers
     
  11. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    I have a few more posts to make regarding Chinese roads and infra in Aksai Chin. For clarity and to serve as a recap I will re-post the obverview map that I posted earlier (It helps me sort things out in my mind)

    The overview map below shows Aksai Chin with the G 219 ias a thick blue line. Branch roads from the G 219 highway that go towards India are numbered from 1 through 8. In earlier posts I have described what can be found along and at the end of roads 3 and 4 leading to the DBO area. Next I wrote about roads 7 and 8 going towards Pangong and Spangur lakes in the Chushul area.

    Lastly I wrote about roads 5 and 6 going to the 'mid Aksai Chin region"

    If you look at the map carefully, road number 2 in the north east corner of Aksai Chin is magenta in colour. I have labelled and marked it separately because it seems to be a special area with no road connections to the LAC but has structures that seem to be militarily important. Will post details ina subsequent post. Overview map below

    [​IMG]
     
    marshal panda likes this.
  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    43,132
    Likes Received:
    23,689
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Looking forward to your analysis.
     
  13. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    The image below is a close up of the north east Aksai chin area with the road branch from the G 219 that is magenta in colour. These roads do not extend up to the LAC.

    Below is a kmz file with all the landmarks that I could locate for those who would like to explore it themselves using Google earth. And after that is an overview map of the roads of Northeast Aksai Chin"
    kmz file: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bQm1zaDNla0tsQzQ/edit?usp=sharing
    Overview image: Close to the G219 is a large civilian structure and a slamm branch road that appears to lead to a min

    Further down the road is a branch that leads to a white bordered area that I have marked as "tunnel complex area'. That area is full of tunnels and looks highly suspicious. Details in subsequent posts:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2013
    Kunal Biswas likes this.
  14. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Below is an enlargement of the area that I have labelled as "tunnel complex area". It is a 2.5 x 1.2 km zone with many zig zag roads and many roads with a blind ending that appears to be entering a mountainside tunnel. Below are three images. The first is an overview of the area and the other two are close ups of roads leading to tunnels.

    Unlike another area that looks like a mine (to be described later) - this area has very litle vehicular activity but more blind end roads leading into tunnels. There is at least obe buidling that looks like a reinforced concrete bomb proof shelter

    Click on images to see larger pic


    1. Overview of the tunnel area

    [​IMG]


    The next two pictures show roads that end in tunnel entrances
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2013
    Kunal Biswas likes this.
  15. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Very close to the G 219 is a structure under constrcution in 2010 when the image was taken. It looks like a lorry terminus possibly for the nearby mines

    Click on images to see a bigger one

    [​IMG]

    Nearby is an area that appears to have lot of vehicular activity. I think these are mines. of course mines are the ideal area to hide one set of military tunnels with missiles. So you can never be sure..
    [​IMG]
     
  16. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Mopping up with the last few posts before I can summarize everything (possibly as an article).

    The image below is of all the airfields I found and their distances from the LAC in Aksai Chin. The airfields that are closest to the LAC in Aksai Chin are all in Xinjiang. The closest is 270 km away and others are progresively further as marked. Each of these airfields is situated at relatively low altitudes (1000 to 1300 meters) but one needs to recall that Jaguars could barely take off with a full load from Bangalore at 1000 meters altitude so 1300 meters in summer could pose restrictions. The Tibet airfields in the east are over 1200 km away and each is at an altitude of over 3000 meters - a height that is sure to restrict fuel or payload or both. At best aircraft might take off with a near full load and little fuel and be refuelled.

    For an intense air war to be fought over Aksai Chin the Chinese would require more airfields closer to Aksai Chin, but altitude is still a problem. Either they don't have them or I have not been able to find them.

    kmz: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bWnZMMXZpR0J6ZTg/edit?usp=sharing
    Click on image for larger size/full size
    [​IMG]
     
    LalTopi likes this.
  17. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Below is a kmz file of all the Chinese bridges that I found in the Aksai Chin area. Most of the bridges seem to be concentrated in the roads leading to the DBO/Depsang plain area. This is probably because this is the only area with the major river (Kizil Jilga?) to be crossed. In other areas a lot of streams are simply crosed without a bridge or, in many cases small ditches have been bridged by short bridges that are usually called "culverts" in India.

    Most of the roads seem like tracks rather than tarrred roads because they generally take on the same colour as the surrounding terrain and sometimes vanish over areas where water flow is evident. Many areas have parallel tracks that vehicles seem to take on occasion. All the roads leading from the G 219 to the LAC have these features sugesting that they are not all weather roads and have a well prepared surface only in specific areas.

    The bridges would be weak points whoise destruction would impede trafic flow - whether they be Chinese forces going towards the LAC or Indian forces across the LAC. The bridges would seem like temping targets to be taken out by special forces ops.

    kmz of bridges: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bSnBwSzdIN3BUY28/edit?usp=sharing

    Location of bridges on road to DBO area (Click on image to see a bigger one)
    [​IMG]
     
    pmaitra and Kunal Biswas like this.
  18. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    A Brief History of how the Chinese Occupied Aksai Chin

    When Nehru lied in Parliament » Indian Defence Review

     
  19. natarajan

    natarajan Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    752
    so india is just sleeping ,thats the conclusion we can arrive from this thread,when they are building such infra then why are crying for our sheds in indian side
     
  20. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    2,118
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Actually the intention of this thread was to see how much the Chinese have done and what they are capable of doing. I did not study the Indian side at all - let some Chinese do that - that will be their job LOL! Our job is to see what the Chinese are up to.

    Will post an analysis in due course..
     

Share This Page