Frontier Infrastructure: Loopholes, Scenarios, etc., and Solutions

[pmaitra]

Just discovered there is an airport with a 3 km long runway right to the north of McMahon Line at this location: 29.306947, 94.333559.

PRC is preparing for a war at full swing.

 

[pmaitra]

Regarding troop insertion in remote areas, where there might not be long runways, I have two interesting existing concepts. I'd like to see the former in the size of the latter.

XC-142 VTOL Test Aircraft - YouTube

Mil V-12/Mi-12 NATO Code: Homer - YouTube

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@pmaitra, do you know that MI-12 back in days was under interest of India ?, Unfortunately the designer died and the project got lost..

This machine would have served us better than Russians, even today..

 

[TrueSpirit]

Regarding troop insertion in remote areas, where there might not be long runways, I have two interesting existing concepts. I'd like to see the former in the size of the latter.

XC-142 VTOL Test Aircraft - YouTube

Is the first one simply a tilt-rotor like V-22 Osprey ? As for V-22 Osprey, it was quite unpopular until recently because it was considered unsafe, overpriced, and completely inadequate (half payload at twice price of CH-53E). Some report said that in case both engines fail, it cannot make a safe landing in helicopter mode, being incapable of autorotation. Basically, it is less forgiving aircraft that hopters. Has a history of crashes in developmental phase (perhaps fixed now). Now it is considered safer but still vastly overpriced.

IMHO, for troop insertion, a constellation of ALH &/or MI-17V5 more be more suited for theaters you mentioned (from a cost-benefit standpoint).

 

[TrueSpirit]

Presently AFV such as BMP-2 can only be paradrop by IL-76 and may be C-130J..

I dont know about Jet engine use on helo, very interesting but very radical..

@Kunal Biswas C-17 can also do that, right ?

 

[TrueSpirit]

Does anyone know if we have any plans for acquiring transport carriers in 120+ tonnes range, like (Galaxy or An-124) ? Basically for airlifting multiple pieces of heavy armour, APC's in fewer sorties over longer ranges & higher altitudes, not for troop insertion.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

C-17 can do better, there are no plans beyond C-17 for now..

@Kunal Biswas C-17 can also do that, right ?

Does anyone know if we have any plans for acquiring transport carriers in 120+ tonnes range, like (Galaxy or An-124) ? Basically for airlifting multiple pieces of heavy armour, APC's in fewer sorties over longer ranges & higher altitudes, not for troop insertion.

 

[TrueSpirit]

C-17 can do better, there are no plans beyond C-17 for now..

So Kunal, how do we airlift 2 T-90's for example ?

I mean, C-17 would need 2 sorties to make that happen (even in SKD condition). While a Galaxy sized carrier can lift 3 T-90's in a single sortie. That is 66% lesser sorties needed. Enough time saved as well as some fuel economy.

 

[pmaitra]

Does anyone know if we have any plans for acquiring transport carriers in 120+ tonnes range, like (Galaxy or An-124) ? Basically for airlifting multiple pieces of heavy armour, APC's in fewer sorties over longer ranges & higher altitudes, not for troop insertion.

Antonov-124 is the only aircraft that can carry two Arjun tanks in one go, and still have capacity for additional jet pack for higher altitude. The question what its service ceiling wold be in that case.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Antonov-124 is the only aircraft that can carry two Arjun tanks in one go, and still have capacity for additional jet pack for higher altitude. The question what its service ceiling wold be in that case.

Yeah, I have always wondered why there is no mention ever of above class of aircrafts for India. We do plan to life heavy armour to high altitude, right ? Anyway, armored columns on hill roads moving one after other are highly vulnerable to gunship fire.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

C-17 can carry two Arjuns as it carry two M1A2..

Antonov-124 is the only aircraft that can carry two Arjun tanks in one go, and still have capacity for additional jet pack for higher altitude. The question what its service ceiling wold be in that case.

So Kunal, how do we airlift 2 T-90's for example ?

I mean, C-17 would need 2 sorties to make that happen (even in SKD condition). While a Galaxy sized carrier can lift 3 T-90's in a single sortie. That is 66% lesser sorties needed. Enough time saved as well as some fuel economy.

 

[pmaitra]

C-17 can carry two Arjuns as it carry two M1A2..

Weird. Wiki says C-17 can carry 170,900 lb (77,519 kg). How does it carry two Abrams? Each Abrams weighs around 61,300 kg. It sure has space for two Abrams, but weight?

That picture you put must be of Abrams that have been stripped of engine, ammo, etc., in other words, those in the picture are not battle ready Abrams.

Source: Boeing C-17 Globemaster III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Most probably, It can be some new update which wiki does not mention or US government kept C-17 max payload as classified ..

My guess something like lesser fuel more payload..

Like we transported Arjun mk1 to guwahati Assam, from there they can be loaded and destined for sikkim..

That picture you put must be of Abrams that have been stripped of engine, ammo, etc., in other words, those in the picture are not battle ready Abrams.

Source: Boeing C-17 Globemaster III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pmaitra]

Most probably, It can be some new update which wiki does not mention or US government kept C-17 max payload as classified ..

My guess something like lesser fuel more payload..

Like we transported Arjun mk1 to guwahati Assam, from there they can be loaded and destined for sikkim..

I guess you already know this, there is an excellent staging ground for an armoured assault into Tibet from Gurudongmar Lake and Kerang area of Sikkim.

 

[DivineHeretic]

To a lot of people, strategic airlift means the ability to lift and deploy assets a 10,000 miles from home. In reality, it should mean the airlift capacity to enforce and augment strategic goals, whether a 1000 miles away or 10,000 miles away. And that would include the ability to lift enough force to change the strategic calculations in our favour, should the need arise.

There is another point which has interested me. Many, including me, was of the opinion that the speed of deploybility of a major formation (via airlift over a significant distance) was dependent on the distance between point A and B, and subject to the resources of airlift at hand.

The RAND study disproves this notion fairly bluntly...

The report contains a scenario that describes how-RAAF Base Tindal-in the Northern Territory might be used to support a US military response to instability in Southeast Asia (p.55). The report models (pp.60-61) how many C-17s would be required to insert a task force based around a-Stryker Brigade Combat Team-into Indonesia for a stabilisation operation.

It compares the benefits of maintaining an air bridge from RAAF Tindal (21 C-17s) as opposed to staging from an airfield in Honolulu (57 C-17s).-

RAND finds that basing in Australia does not improve the speed of response to a problem; rather, having access to an Australian airfield close to the source of a potential problem means that fewer aircraft are needed (see table below). In turn, that-gives the US military more flexibility to deal with concurrent contingencies.

These tables provide an interesting insight into the Strategic airlift calculations and the deployment time required for a combat brigade of the USARMY or USMC. It would be fairly similar for the IA too, except the IA would be flying not 5000 miles but 1000-2000 miles at best, of course to a high altitude.

With shorter distance than in the tables and With a large fleet of strategic airlifters, the IAF and the IA will have certain enviable capabilities the PLA cannot prepare for. An advantage for us, if we are willing to take the decision for a larger strategic fleet.

Overseas Basing of U.S. Military Forces: An Assessment of Relative Costs and Strategic Benefits | RAND

Please do note that there are certain points thqt must be kept in mind when analysing this data in Indian context.

For one,The high altitudes will reduce the payload capacity of the C-17s. This implies the IAF will have to conduct a larger number of sorties than the USAF to deploy the same force.

Then we also have to consider that we do have significant tactical ability to augment the air deployed forces, meaning the deployment times will be far shorter than that for the USAF over a comparable distance witoput tactical airlift.

 

[ladder]

IAF team inspects site for Advanced Landing Ground in Tawang

ITANAGAR: A high-level technical team of the Indian Air Force (IAF) inspected a site for construction of the proposed Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) in Tawang district bordering China.

The IAF team inspected the site at Thrillam village under Lumla sub-division of the district on Friday, along with local MLA Jambey Tashi, deputy commissioner Abhishek Dev and brigadier J S Rajpurohit, commander of the 190 Mountain Brigade, officials said.

The team, comprising wing commander P Joseph of Air Force Station, Jorhat, and squadron leader R Shiva Prasad of Tezpur expressed their satisfaction with the proposed site for the ALG.

They would submit their report to the authorities, the source said.

Tashi and local panchayat members requested the state government to take up the construction of the ALG as the site was echnically suitable.

IAF team inspects site for Advanced Landing Ground in Tawang - The Times of India

 

[bennedose]

Frontier Infrastructure: Loopholes, Scenarios, Contingencies, Plans, Programmes, and Solutions

This thread is for discussing the Western and Eastern Sectors of the Indo-Tibetan Border and LAC, as well as the LAC with PoK.

Kindly discuss the weaknesses, loopholes, and India's current scenario about troop movement. We must also discuss weapons systems that can be used specifically in these regions, in case of a future war, which could be either defensive, or if we start a campaign to capture more territory to gain diplomatic leverage.

pmaitra thanks for pointing me to this thread, but I note that this thread is more about the Indian side. I find, in general, in the media and on the interent, a great number of references to Chinas strengths and India's loopholes/weaknesses. For this reason I thought I would put in a detailed study of what is happening on the Chinese side. All the Indian media and discussion boards make some statements and some assumptions about China - which is so widespread that it has become the truth. My purpose was to examine what is happening on the Chinese side and to that extent the stuff I want to write about is inapproprtate for this thread because it will be talking about Chinese strenghts and weaknesses (starting with Aksai Chin) and will have very little to do with Indias perceived weaknesses - which is a favorite topic of discussion.

Perhaps I ought to start a dedicated thread in the China folder as I had planned and leave this thread for discussions of Indias strengths and weaknesses as envisaged in the first post.

 

[pmaitra]

pmaitra thanks for pointing me to this thread, but I note that this thread is more about the Indian side. I find, in general, in the media and on the interent, a great number of references to Chinas strengths and India's loopholes/weaknesses. For this reason I thought I would put in a detailed study of what is happening on the Chinese side. All the Indian media and discussion boards make some statements and some assumptions about China - which is so widespread that it has become the truth. My purpose was to examine what is happening on the Chinese side and to that extent the stuff I want to write about is inapproprtate for this thread because it will be talking about Chinese strenghts and weaknesses (starting with Aksai Chin) and will have very little to do with Indias perceived weaknesses - which is a favorite topic of discussion.

Perhaps I ought to start a dedicated thread in the China folder as I had planned and leave this thread for discussions of Indias strengths and weaknesses as envisaged in the first post.

Yes, you are right. I have opened a thread for you: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ure-whats-up-prc-chinese-side.html#post749317

Let me know whether the title is ok.

Edit:
I must add, what is happening on the Chinese side is relevant in this thread, so while you post in that thread, we can link relevant posts in this thread. Both this and the other thread will be sister threads, because, if there is war, it will involve both the sides, so we cannot really see them as mutually exclusive.

 

[bennedose]

Let me know whether the title is ok.

Edit:
I must add, what is happening on the Chinese side is relevant in this thread, so while you post in that thread, we can link relevant posts in this thread. Both this and the other thread will be sister threads, because, if there is war, it will involve both the sides, so we cannot really see them as mutually exclusive.

Thanks. The title is fine. Will start posting some stuff sooon - need to organize because it is a mix of observations, opinions Google earth kmz links as well as close up screenshots.

 

[Yusuf]

pmaitra thanks for pointing me to this thread, but I note that this thread is more about the Indian side. I find, in general, in the media and on the interent, a great number of references to Chinas strengths and India's loopholes/weaknesses. For this reason I thought I would put in a detailed study of what is happening on the Chinese side. All the Indian media and discussion boards make some statements and some assumptions about China - which is so widespread that it has become the truth. My purpose was to examine what is happening on the Chinese side and to that extent the stuff I want to write about is inapproprtate for this thread because it will be talking about Chinese strenghts and weaknesses (starting with Aksai Chin) and will have very little to do with Indias perceived weaknesses - which is a favorite topic of discussion.

Perhaps I ought to start a dedicated thread in the China folder as I had planned and leave this thread for discussions of Indias strengths and weaknesses as envisaged in the first post.

Please do start a thread on the Chinese. No restrictions on the number of threads you can start.