Frontier Infrastructure: Loopholes, Scenarios, etc., and Solutions

[arnabmit]

Geologists would not agree I think... Same reason avalanches are more common near glaciers, Vibrations. Albeit at a "glacial" pace, but glaciers do move.

I just called up and verified with a geologist friend of mine.

I beg to differ. I think a tunnel under the glacier will be less prone to blockages than one over the glacier.

Given an infinite amount of money, the entire length of the tunnel should be built under the mountain.

 

[pmaitra]

Geologists would not agree I think... Same reason avalanches are more common near glaciers, Vibrations. Albeit at a "glacial" pace, but glaciers do move.

I just called up and verified with a geologist friend of mine.

Avalanche has no effect inside the tunnel. It only has effect on roads in the valleys. I know glaciers move, but how does that have any impact on a road that is in a tunnel, under the glacier?

 

[arnabmit]

I think I wasn't clear in my explanation, my bad.

What I was trying to say was: Glaciers cause vibrations. Same vibrations which cause avalanches will also make tunnel walls and reinforcements to crack. Also, can cause tunnel floods as vehicular traffic will heat up the tunnel and will cause rock seepage water to melt. My friend gave me a lot of other technical reasons which i didn't fully understand, something to do with rock strata and alternating layers of soft sedimentary and hard rock.

That is why they did 2+ yrs of avalanche studies before they finalized the plan for the Rohtang tunnel.

Anyway, as an overmountain road is already being constructed between Sasoma & Saser, why a tunnel? Rs. 5000cr for just a military use route is waste of money, don't you think, when their is a much cheaper alternative available?

Avalanche has no effect inside the tunnel. It only has effect on roads in the valleys. I know glaciers move, but how does that have any impact on a road that is in a tunnel, under the glacier?

 

[Decklander]

Nearly none of the abandoned airbases can operate as fighter bases, except if they've been upgraded to be able to maintain fighter sorties (there are some where infra have been upgraded to allow fighter ops but no fighter activity has occured).

The modern fighter is not a 2gen AC like the hunter that can operate from a abandoned airfield. It would take a lot of activity to make an abandoned airfield fit for fighter use, too much to be completed after the commencement of war.

Firstly the the runway must be capable of supporting Fighter ops, not as in load bearing capacity but in terms of uniformity of the runway. It must be metalled and flat, which sadly vey few of abandoned runways are. The SU-30 in particular is very prone to FOD (foreign object damage) and requires extra precaution for takeoff and landing. The IAF will not risk it in a unprepared airstrip.

The next is the massive maintainance and resouce requirement of maintaining a fighter group in an aifield. The SU-30mki has an internal fuel capacity of 5000kg. Assuming even 4-6 fighters in an airfield, it will require 20-30,000 kg(i.e. 20-30 tons) of fuel for a single sortie. Now add to that each AC carries as much as 8tons of payload. Even assuming 4 tons per sortie, that comes to around 16-24 tons per sortie. A total of 36-54 tons per sortie even by conservative estimates.

If these airfilds are not connected/accessible by roads, as in the majority of the cases, you'll need to fly multiple IL-76/C-17 sorties to the airfiled for every group sortie the fighter unit makes. And in wartime, a group will most definitely make multiple sorties. Thats not sustainable in a war, especially when the IAF transport fleet will also be heavily commited to troop deployment and air supply.

I've not even added the maintainance requirements to this, the support instruments nor the daily requirements of individuals posted at the airfield. It was possible in Longewala because the airfield was accessible by supply trucks.

The airfields can, with large improvements, be used as a staging base for launching attacks, but it cannot function as a base regularly operating fighter AC. Period. Unless of course, you're speaking of the USAF with 220 odd C-17s and 100 odd C-5, in which case they'd be able to create a full fledged airbase in the middle of nowhere.

You have no idea of how it is done and these airfields become fighter bases overnight. A 7-10 days deployment of fighters to such remote locations is not a problem at all. Regarding fuel supplies, Have you ever heard that local and privately owned vehicles become national property during war emergency?

 

[Ray]

Solution:
A new airbase in Padum Google Maps



@Kunal Biswas @pmaitra @Ray @Decklander

Feasible.

However, the aircraft turnaround from probable targets have to be taken into account.

 

[Ray]

On the issue of Fuels Oils and Lubricants being functional additives are added.

For those who are not aware.

However, let me give an example.

Left - Untreated #2 Diesel Fuel, Right - #2 Diesel Fuel treated with Diesel Plus

The above photo shows how Diesel Plus improves the cold flow properties of diesel fuel. As diesel fuel gets colder, the paraffin waxes begin to form and clump together (left photo). Once these waxes stop the flow of diesel fuel thru the filter you have reached the Cold Filter Plugging Point (CFPP). The gel point is then the temperature where the diesel fuel no longer flows at all. The cold flow improver additives in Diesel Plus do not allow these waxes to clump together (right photo) until much lower temperatures, which keeps the fuel flowing through the filter and keeping you on the road!

At the winter treatment rate, Diesel Plus can lower the CFPP of diesel fuel as much as 22 degrees F and the gel point by as much as 35 degrees F.

Why is the phrase "as much as" used in the industry when referring to lowering the CFPP and gel point?

The quality of the diesel fuel you purchase from week to week varies, even from the same gas station! The diesel fuel you purchase is required to have a CFPP within 5 deg F +- from 0, but there are different ways to get the fuel to that range. A diesel fuel that is not as well-refined will need the addition of cold flow improvers just so the diesel fuel can be sold. These cold flow improvers also have a diminishing rate of return (the second ounce of additive does not have as much impact as the first ounce). A diesel fuel that has had a cold flow improver added at the refinery will not be able to take full advantage of the degree lowering properties that Diesel Plus can provide due to this diminishing rate of return. In addition, increased amounts of biodiesel also take a toll on the cold flow characteristics of diesel fuel.

http://www.conklin.com/content/products/vp/dieselplus.cfm

May also see this

http://www.kamco.co.uk/diesel.html

Commercial anti freeze thta prevents diesel from freezing upto -22 deg C.

For coolants

Honda's gone extreme when it comes to its engine coolant. Meet the latest member of the Honda Genuine vital fluids family: Extreme Cold Weather Antifreeze/Coolant Type 2. This new brew is just the ticket when
you're driving in areas where the mercury drops way down into the subzero zone.
Our normal engine coolant—Longlife Antifreeze/Coolant Type 2—is a 50% concentration of antifreeze and
water. It's formulated to work straight from the jug at temperatures as low as -34°F. But below that
temperature, the coolant freezes up. And not even an accessory block heater can prevent it from doing so.
That's where Extreme Cold Weather Antifreeze/Coolant Type 2 comes in. When properly measured and
added to the engine coolant, it raises the antifreeze concentration to 60%, which lowers the coolant
freezing point to -62°F. And it does this without affecting the original cooling system service interval, too.
http://www.hondasuv.com/members/showthread.php?t=52363

It is obvious that if additives were not added, then the vehicles and equipment would not be able to operate in high altitude and extreme cold climates.

It would be pertinent to note

Like most fuels, diesel is a mix of hydrocarbons, and the components have different freezing points. For Number 2 diesel, as the ambient temperatures drop toward 0°C (32 F), it begins to cloud, due to the paraffin in the fuel solidifying. As the temperatures drop below 0°C, the molecules combine into solids, large enough to be stopped by the filter. This is known as the gel point, and generally occurs about -9.5 degrees C (15 degrees F ) below the cloud point.

This wax then forms a coating on the filter which results in a loss of engine power. The same thing happens on starting an engine when the temperature is below freezing. The filter becomes almost instantly coated with wax - usually, enough fuel gets through to allow the engine to idle, but not attain operating RPM. There are two common ways to overcome this: one is a diesel additive, the other is a fuel heater.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_freezing_point_of_diesel

I think that would adequate answer the query raised by one worthy poster

Oh really....

Special oils and lubricants !!

When I mentioned

Oils, diesel and petrol have additives added so that they don't 'freeze' including that for artillery guns!

It is all a question of having experience to have served in the Army and in High Altitude, because anyone who has served, even if he were a jawan, he would know!

My apologies to others for this diversion, but then I do agree that it is a waste of time to state the obvious, but then education of those who claim to know, but don't know is a necessity, lest ignorance swamps us with wiseacre comments!

 

[DivineHeretic]

You have no idea of how it is done and these airfields become fighter bases overnight. A 7-10 days deployment of fighters to such remote locations is not a problem at all. Regarding fuel supplies, Have you ever heard that local and privately owned vehicles become national property during war emergency?

You can take over the entire fleet of private trucks in case of war for all I care, but how do you intend to reach the desolate inaccessible bases? These airfields were developed to supply troops in regions where there is absolutely no other means of connectivity. That means no roads( literally no roads, not even a dusty one) for the trucks to move on. Only mules and human porters are available to deliver supplies from the bases to the forward troops.

You have no idea where those airfields are, do you?

And btw, you can prepare the aurfields for fighter use in say 10-15 days (including time to stock up supply), but any such large scale movement will give away the intended use of the airfield, and without AD cover, not even God will be able to save the deployment.

 

[Decklander]

You can take over the entire fleet of private trucks in case of war for all I care, but how do you intend to reach the desolate inaccessible bases? These airfields were developed to supply troops in regions where there is absolutely no other means of connectivity. That means no roads( literally no roads, not even a dusty one) for the trucks to move on. Only mules and human porters are available to deliver supplies from the bases to the forward troops.

You have no idea where those airfields are, do you?

And btw, you can prepare the aurfields for fighter use in say 10-15 days (including time to stock up supply), but any such large scale movement will give away the intended use of the airfield, and without AD cover, not even God will be able to save the deployment.

Son I do not know your age but I must tell you that in the year of the lord 1991-92, I had done lots of valley flying in Chabua and Baghdogra while flying for 20sqn IAF. I know those airfields far better than anybody on this forum. After leaving IN, I have flown for over 15 years as a Captain on B737s and A320 in thiese areas. And I know the area like the back of my Palm.
I suggest that you pls read the links I posted and than tell me which of these airfields can't be reached by a truck or oil tanker of 25 ton capacity.

 

[Vishwarupa]

Self delete

 

[Ray]

@Decklander,

I too have been flying!

At the controls!

Hashimara!

 

[DivineHeretic]

Son I do not know your age but I must tell you that in the year of the lord 1991-92, I had done lots of valley flying in Chabua and Baghdogra while flying for 20sqn IAF. I know those airfields far better than anybody on this forum. After leaving IN, I have flown for over 15 years as a Captain on B737s and A320 in thiese areas. And I know the area like the back of my Palm.
I suggest that you pls read the links I posted and than tell me which of these airfields can't be reached by a truck or oil tanker of 25 ton capacity.

What does Chabua and Baghdogra have to do with Arunachal Pradesh? Theses are airfields, rather airbases in plains, well connected by road transport. The bases I'm talking about are in AP, surrounded by mountains, without any road connectivity worth the name. Till 2011, IAF did not conduct any fighter landings on any of these isolated airfields, and btw 20 squadron only arrived in NE in 1990-91. You were based in Kalaikunda in 1992 and in Hashimpur till 1989. Thats a very short deployment in NE.

So without landing on any of these bases, you claim to know all about them? Thats rich. And B-737 or A320 ( seriously, two completely different AC) only fly till Dibrugarh, that too 3-4 times a week. The route is over the flattest part of NE, I should know. I fly over there all the time. Not to mention I travel via road too to these places, (relatives you see).


And btw, Hunters are not comparable to SU-30, especially on deployability count. Its far more fragile, especially to FOD.

And just so you know, 25-40 ton tankers are absolutely impossible to use in AP, the roads are too twisted with upward elevation for such a large vehicle to move., forget to the airfields. The only large trucks to be deployed are the 1620 of tata, that too only on good weather and to a certain pint. After that only Army trucks can operate. I know people who used to work as private truckers working under the army logistics. They described the nightmare involved in moving to Tawang.

 

[Decklander]

I just do not know if you have any idea as to what is supposed to be the best location for a fighter base. What use is an airbase which can be hit by normal artillary? An airbase shud be about 80-100 kms away from the border.
The list of abandoned airfields which I posted were all operational airfields during WW-2 and used by US 10th Air Force for operations into China.
SU-30MKI needs much smaller r/w length for T/O & Lndg compared to Hunter.
You seem to be totally confused w.r.t ALGs, Helipads and Fighter Bases.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

An closed Airfield can be reactive within 7-days at earliest given all the tools you have ready in your hands, I seen recently similar work where i am staying but only for light transport..
@DivineHeretic @Decklander

 

[Decklander]

I had mentioned and used the word "Satellite Airfields". Every fighter base has such airstrips well within their ops area which they maintain in good shape by ensuring that cows and bluebulls regularly go grazing their and the runway is full of cow dung but not damaged or has potholes. Such delapidated airfields which look abandoned but maintained very well otherwise, need only cleaning of surface to avoid FOD. We normally do not operate more than a flight from such airfields. A flight means four aircraft.

 

[DivineHeretic]

I just do not know if you have any idea as to what is supposed to be the best location for a fighter base. What use is an airbase which can be hit by normal artillary? An airbase shud be about 80-100 kms away from the border.
The list of abandoned airfields which I posted were all operational airfields during WW-2 and used by US 10th Air Force for operations into China.
SU-30MKI needs much smaller r/w length for T/O & Lndg compared to Hunter.
You seem to be totally confused w.r.t ALGs, Helipads and Fighter Bases.

In an ideal world, there would be no wars. The military does not have the luxury of choosing only ideal spots. At dificult critical points, you set up bases where you can, not where you want. The Amritsar AFS, the Jaisalmer AFS and several others are well within your "ideal distance". Now they do exist, and are operational. Aren't they?

Btw, how is distance from the border relevent to my Question? I was talking about the improbability of conducting fighter missions from abandoned airstrips without major upgrades. How does distance from IB come into this?

You are attempting to digress. Nice try. Better luck next time.

And btw, You were talking about airfields, not airbases. And airfields imply ALGs, not Airbases by implicit. You can go and check your previous posts.

The 10th AF did not conduct CAPs or Strike misions from these ALGs/airfields/abandoned Airbases. They flew transport flights, which I've said earlier is easily possible with minimum upgradation. It is not the same as conducting fighter missions.

And how does the T/O and landing distance of SU-30MKI matter here? The SU-30mki canot take off from unprepared or ill-prepared runways, unless you want your $100 million AC wrecked by engine blowout.

 

[DivineHeretic]

An closed Airfield can be reactive within 7-days at earliest given all the tools you have ready in your hands, I seen recently similar work where i am staying but only for light transport..
@DivineHeretic @Decklander

For transport missions, you do not really require 7 days of work on an abandoned airfield. As long as the airstrip is relatively intact, the Civil Engineer will only need to check the soil pressure capacity and fill up the larger potholes, if any. In case of dirt runway, any highly broken surface or prsence of bigger stones will need to be removed. Should really take only about 2-3 days to get it done.

Its fairly simple to setup airstrips for transport ACs, especially turboprop ones. No chance of FOD, and even in case of military transport jets with high installed engine.

 

[Decklander]

For transport missions, you do not really require 7 days of work on an abandoned airfield. As long as the airstrip is relatively intact, the Civil Engineer will only need to check the soil pressure capacity and fill up the larger potholes, if any. In case of dirt runway, any highly broken surface or prsence of bigger stones will need to be removed. Should really take only about 2-3 days to get it done.

Its fairly simple to setup airstrips for transport ACs, especially turboprop ones. No chance of FOD, and even in case of military transport jets with high installed engine.

mechanised runway clearing vehicles about six per sqn in IAF followed by walk around by men speard just one meter apart along the runway length is all it takes to make a runway free from FOD. An average men of five feet six inch height has an unrotated eyeball field of view of his eyes of nearly two meters. Thats why we position our men just one meter apart for FOD drill. I never wanted to share all this here.

 

[DivineHeretic]

I had mentioned and used the word "Satellite Airfields". Every fighter base has such airstrips well within their ops area which they maintain in good shape by ensuring that cows and bluebulls regularly go grazing their and the runway is full of cow dung but not damaged or has potholes. Such delapidated airfields which look abandoned but maintained very well otherwise, need only cleaning of surface to avoid FOD. We normally do not operate more than a flight from such airfields. A flight means four aircraft.

You do realise that an airfield, left abandoned without regular cleaning will accumulate as much as 1-2 feet of dust in a couple of years. This is especially true in dry areas, as well as in windy areas, i.e. Ladakh. Try removing 2 feet of dirt from 1000-2000m runway. It will take you a whole day just to remove it, assuming you can get a bulldozer to the site
And in case of AP, you'll find the asphalt completely destroyed iafter 2-3 years, if regular maintainance is not carried out. The snow and rainfall when allowed to accumulate and is not removed, weakens the asphalt, and even the ground underneath it. Try finding the condition of a flood suberged piece of highway, you'll get the picture.Not a good place to land a AC at 300km/hr.

These problems are redundant in rest of India (except J&K and Rajasthan) and hence people tend to ignore them. IAF cannot.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It takes alot more than just that..

Things about that @Decklander talking about were done over N.E, IL-76 / C-17 use Jet engines and they do land on unprepared Runways ( Dirt Runways just with some markings ), SU-25 even MIG-29 also use same procedure..

For transport missions, you do not really require 7 days of work on an abandoned airfield. As long as the airstrip is relatively intact, the Civil Engineer will only need to check the soil pressure capacity and fill up the larger potholes, if any. In case of dirt runway, any highly broken surface or prsence of bigger stones will need to be removed. Should really take only about 2-3 days to get it done.

 

[DivineHeretic]

It takes alot more than just that..

Things about that @Decklander talking about were done over N.E, IL-76 / C-17 use Jet engines and they do land on unprepared Runways ( Dirt Runways just with some markings ), SU-25 even MIG-29 also use same procedure..

I'm only stating the basic drill, that too, as I said, for a intact airfiled. It will become increasing complicated depending on the degeneration of the runway, or if any other factor has to be taken into account.

Even I said that jet AC with high wing (i.e. The IL-76 and the C-17) can fairly easily conduct takeoff and landings anywhere turboprops can, provided the runway can take the loads.

ISu-25 frogfoot was always a very rough AC capable of alot of abuse, but I didn't think the Mig-29 could do so.

But even then, both these AC will need a relatively flat airstrip to land, (irrespective of whether FOD is a concern or not). Due to high momentum during landing, and subsequent inertia, it can very easily be subjected to toppling torque if a wheel impacts a sudden discontinuity on the surface. Shattered landing gear is a common efrect of this.