Frontier Infrastructure: Loopholes, Scenarios, etc., and Solutions

[W.G.Ewald]

@pmaitra

What is meant by loophole?

Something else than an aperture for shooting from a blockhouse, I imagine.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra

What is meant by loophole?

Something else than an aperture for shooting from a blockhouse, I imagine.

Well, in the figurative sense, any gap. I guess it is redundant in a sense.

 

[ladder]

India-China Agreement on the Establishment of a Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on India-China Border Affairs

January 17, 2012

Agreement between
The Government of the Republic of India
and
The Government of the People's Republic of China
on the
Establishment of a Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on India-China Border Affairs
The Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the People's Republic of China (hereinafter referred to as the "two sides");

Firmly believing that respecting and abiding by the Line of Actual Control pending a resolution of the Boundary Question between the two countries as well as maintaining and strengthening peace and tranquility in the India-China border areas is very significant for enhancing mutual trust and security between the two countries, for resolving the Boundary Question at an early date and for building the India-China Strategic and Cooperative Partnership for Peace and Prosperity;

Desiring to materialize the spirit of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the People's Republic of China on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility Along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas signed on 7th September 1993, the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the People's Republic of China on Confidence Building Measures in the Military Field Along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas signed on 29th November 1996 and the Protocol between the Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the People's Republic of China on Modalities for the Implementation of Confidence Building Measures in the Military Field Along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas signed on 11th April 2005;

Aiming for timely communication of information on the border situation, for appropriately handling border incidents, for earnestly undertaking other cooperation activities in the India-China border areas, have agreed as follows:

Article I

The two sides agree to establish a Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on India-China Border Affairs (hereinafter referred to as "the Working Mechanism") to deal with important border affairs related to maintaining peace and tranquility in the India-China border areas.

Article II

The Working Mechanism will be headed by a Joint Secretary level official from the Ministry of External Affairs of the Republic of India and a Director General level official from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China and will be composed of diplomatic and military officials of the two sides.

Article III

The Working Mechanism will study ways and means to conduct and strengthen exchanges and cooperation between military personnel and establishments of the two sides in the border areas.

Article IV

The Working Mechanism will explore the possibility of cooperation in the border areas that are agreed upon by the two sides.

Article V

The Working Mechanism will undertake other tasks that are mutually agreed upon by the two sides but will not discuss resolution of the Boundary Question or affect the Special Representatives Mechanism.

Article VI

The Working Mechanism will address issues and situations that may arise in the border areas that affect the maintenance of peace and tranquillity and will work actively towards maintaining the friendly atmosphere between the two countries.

Article VII

The Working Mechanism will hold consultations once or twice every year alternately in India and China. Emergency consultations, if required, may be convened after mutual agreement.

Article VIII

This Agreement shall come into force on the date of its signature. It may be revised, amended, or terminated with the consent of the two sides. Any revision or amendment, mutually agreed by the two sides, shall form an integral part of this Agreement.

Signed in duplicate in Hindi, Chinese and English languages at New Delhi, on 17th January 2012, all three versions being equally authentic. In case of divergence the English text shall prevail.
For the Government of the Republic of India For the Government of the People's Republic of China

India-China Agreement on the Establishment of a Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on India-China Border Affairs

 

[ladder]

Text and Details of 1954, 1993 and 1996 agreement between India and China

1. The Panchsheel Agreement

2. The CSBM Agreement of 1993

3. Extending CSBMs to ,Military Field

Details in this link
Three Agreements and Five Principles between India and China -Swaran Singh

 

[SamwiseTheBrave]

can the DRDO work on something like this ? seems to be software intensive to me.... and only $30 million to develop ! imagine building a line of these along the LOC and LAC , backed up by adequate boots on the ground of course. it would also solve the all-terrain and all-weather problems

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/americas/50823-kraken-combat-outpost-surveillance-force-protection-system.html

 

[pmaitra]

Airfield in Siachen (?)

If we invest some effort, and money, we could have a better solution of sending rations, troops, and weapons, to the Siachen Glacier.

Here is a distant view of 60 km from Siachen Glacier, seen form the South. To the left lies Gilgit-Baltistan, and to the right lies DBO and Aksai Chin.


(Hypothetical) Siachen Airstrip

Here is a close-up view of the spot that could be useful for a high-altitude airstrip.


(Hypothetical) Siachen Airstrip Closeup

It should be noted, that the yellow line is a 6.5 km stretch. The take-off length of an Ilyushin-76 is 2 km at low level, and that of a C-17 is 2.6 km at low level. A 6.5 km at that altitude (5500 m) should be sufficient for both these aircraft, to take off, as well as land.

Also, please refer to this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...o-indian-territory-ladakh-163.html#post728493

N.B.: The height of the hills on top of the glacier seems to be in the vicinity of 5 to 7 km.

[HR][/HR]

A very interesting question raised by @DivineHeretic (thank you for that).

This part in the middle is the accumulation zone, and is likely to remain stable.


(Hypothetical) Siachen Airstrip Closeup and Labelled

Legend:

• AB - Ablation Zone.
• AC - Accumulation Zone.
• B - Bulldozing Required.
• L - Leveling Required.

Also, please refer to this:

Parts of a Glacier
Source: Volcanoes of the Eastern Sierra Nevada

Why is Ablation Zone firm? Because of firn!

Firn (English pronunciation: /fɪrn/; from Swiss German firn "last year's", cognate with before) is partially compacted névé, a type of snow that has been left over from past seasons and has been recrystallized into a substance denser than névé. It is ice that is at an intermediate stage between snow and glacial ice. Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling. Its density generally ranges from 550 kg/m³-830 kg/m³ and can be often found underneath the snow that accumulates at the head of a glacier.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn

 

[pmaitra]

Crossposting:

One can Land C-130J back there, If such improvisation can be done..

Transporting Bull dozers can be done with MI-26..

I think we need to modify the Mil-26, to look like it's daddy, Mil-6, with stub wings, like below, except, that the wings should be longer, stronger, and there should be upward facing turbo-props fitted on them to give that extra lift, to take it above its service ceiling of 4,600 m. Siachen would be 5,500 m.

 

[pmaitra]

@Kunal Biswas,

Perhaps we can drop bulldozing and rock cutting equipment like this?

Ilyushin-76 performing low altitude drop of equipment

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have a surprise for you regarding this matter..

@Kunal Biswas,

Perhaps we can drop bulldozing and rock cutting equipment like this?


Ilyushin-76 performing low altitude drop of equipment

 

[pmaitra]

I have a surprise for you regarding this matter..

Waiting for it.

Let me guess, is this how our Antonov-32 planes delivered the ZU-23-2 that are deployed in Siachen?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Took me some time to find it..

A single of this can plow 200ms in 30mins,

One can carry 4 of these in a MI-17,

I think 1 of these can be carry inside Dhruv too ?,

One can easily Airdrop these little once in dozens via a IL-76MD ..

Waiting for it. ?

 

[arnabmit]

@pmaitra

First of all Environmentalists would never allow it to happen. they will even rope in some international bodies and raise hue and cry in UN.

Second, at -50 to -20 temperature year round, one cannot use heavy machinery. Due to extreme cold, metal undergoes molecular restructuring where Inch thick metal plates become brittle like 8mm glass, fuel and hydraulic fluids become thick like molasses and renders all machinery useless.

Took me some time to find it..

A single of this can plow 200ms in 30mins,

One can carry 4 of these in a MI-17,

I think 1 of these can be carry inside Dhruv too ?,

One can easily Airdrop these little once in dozens via a IL-76MD ..

 

[arnabmit]

BTW... I have more or less finished drawing the road from Shyok village to DBO. Some of it is yet to be published to google maps. Everyone can see the terrain challenges by following he road.

However, if you zoom in close enough, you will see heavy earth movers making roads in and around the Murgo area. No asphalting done yet, but stable gravel path can be seen.

The biggest challenge seems a permanent road along the Shyok river bed.

 

[Ray]

As far as China is concerned, we should be clear that the LAC as we see includes Aksai Chin and if they do not want us to improve the infrastructure, then they better do likewise.

Measures to ensure the Shyok river does not flood in summer must be undertaken under the demands of ecological management. This will also remove the current militarily disadvantage.

It would only be natural to help settling Ladakhis and ex Ladhaki soldier in these unoccupied areas, first as graziers and then as permanent folks. After all, it would be a humanitarian measure to relieve the pressure on the land requirement in Ladakh. The Chinese may find these measures as a way to ensure Indian 'encroachment' on disputed territory, but then we should stand firm.

It is obvious that these people settled cannot be left on a limb and so roads and tracks will have to be built.

And the Border Management cannot be left to the Home Ministry, who as it is, is unable to even manage the internal security of the country or the terrorists from Pakistan who strike Indian cities at will!

 

[Ray]

Took me some time to find it..

A single of this can plow 200ms in 30mins,

One can carry 4 of these in a MI-17,

I think 1 of these can be carry inside Dhruv too ?,

One can easily Airdrop these little once in dozens via a IL-76MD ..

We have many of these JCBs operating in the Army.

Great machines!

I have used them!

 

[Ray]

@pmaitra

First of all Environmentalists would never allow it to happen. they will even rope in some international bodies and raise hue and cry in UN.

Second, at -50 to -20 temperature year round, one cannot use heavy machinery. Due to extreme cold, metal undergoes molecular restructuring where Inch thick metal plates become brittle like 8mm glass, fuel and hydraulic fluids become thick like molasses and renders all machinery useless.

Oils, diesel and petrol have additives added so that they don't 'freeze' including that for artillery guns!

In so far as metals and metals on weaponry still functioning, now that you have mentioned such details, I wonder how they are function under such adverse temperature conditions.! But they seem to be functioning!

Seems that I never gave it a thought!

 

[ladder]

It is obvious that these people settled cannot be left on a limb and so roads and tracks will have to be built.

Exactly Sir,
There is problem of migration from border area in Arunachal Pradesh, due to lack of connectivity.
Border populations can be our eyes and ears.

Migration from border areas a worry: Arunachal MP

tanagar: Lok Sabha member from Arunachal Pradesh Takam Sanjoy has expressed concern over large-scale migrations of people from villages near the border with China due to food scarcity owing to lack of terrestrial access.

"It is difficult to ascertain, but most villages bordering China are deserted with their inhabitants migrating to Itanagar, Koloriang and other towns in the state," Sanjoy informed.

According to the MP from Arunachal West constituency, incursions by PLA are less of a worry than migrations of local villagers from the border areas.

Food scarcity, lack of basic amenities and access roads are factors behind the migration, he said.

There are some 600 villages within 10km of the 1,046 km border that Arunachal Pradesh shares with China-controlled Tibet. These 600 habitations are among 3,880 in the frontier with less than 250 people.

"If the border areas are developed, these villagers can stay back and be given incentives to monitor Chinese movements since it is often difficult for the forces to reach the frontiers. They can be used as a line of defence, and Centre should seriously look into this," Sanjoy added.

Meanwhile, officials in state capital Itanagar said they had no reports of fresh intrusions by Chinese soldiers in Arunachal Pradesh who had violated the Line of Actual Control at least four times in the state in 2011.

Officials of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) too denied knowledge of fresh Chinese incursions.

"The border in Arunachal Pradesh is not demarcated, and many strategic points take three days' foot march to reach from the nearest stations. Even if Chinese soldiers entered our areas in our momentary absence on the border, they have not left any signs for confirmation," an ITBP officer said on condition of anonymity.

PTI

Migration from border areas a worry: Arunachal MP

 

[Ray]

Itanagar: Lok Sabha member from Arunachal Pradesh Takam Sanjoy has expressed concern over large-scale migrations of people from villages near the border with China due to food scarcity owing to lack of terrestrial access.

The fool Indian Govt is worried about passing Food Security Bill, when they cannot address this important issue that is so important to national security.

No fancy MNERGA out here?

The problem with Indian politicians is their gaddi and everything that affects that.

The Problems of National Security?

Hey, what is that?

 

[DivineHeretic]

Airfield in Siachen (?)

If we invest some effort, and money, we could have a better solution of sending rations, troops, and weapons, to the Siachen Glacier.

Here is a distant view of 60 km from Siachen Glacier, seen form the South. To the left lies Gilgit-Baltistan, and to the right lies DBO and Aksai Chin.


(Hypothetical) Siachen Airstrip

Here is a close-up view of the spot that could be useful for a high-altitude airstrip.


(Hypothetical) Siachen Airstrip Closeup

It should be noted, that the yellow line is a 6.5 km stretch. The take-off length of an Ilyushin-76 is 2 km at low level, and that of a C-17 is 2.6 km at low level. A 6.5 km at that altitude (5500 m) should be sufficient for both these aircraft, to take off, as well as land.

Also, please refer to this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...o-indian-territory-ladakh-163.html#post728493

N.B.: The height of the hills on top of the glacier seems to be in the vicinity of 5 to 7 km.

[HR][/HR]

A very interesting question raised by @DivineHeretic (thank you for that).

This part in the middle is the accumulation zone, and is likely to remain stable.


(Hypothetical) Siachen Airstrip Closeup and Labelled

Legend:

• AB - Ablation Zone.
• AC - Accumulation Zone.
• B - Bulldozing Required.
• L - Leveling Required.

Also, please refer to this:

Parts of a Glacier
Source: Volcanoes of the Eastern Sierra Nevada

Why is Ablation Zone firm? Because of firn!


Source: Firn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The region you've identified is accumulation zone. These are the last places a civil Engineer would want to undertake construction. There is no ice, only snow at the top on such regions and are fairly loosely compacted, and cannot take even medium loads, let alone heavy loads. Any construction there would have to be preceeded by massive compaction process, an extremely difficult task, and a dangerous one at that.

And under no conditions can we construct a concrete road over the region.

Then there is the fact that accumulation zones are named so as more snowfall occurs in the region than snow lost. As such during cold periods, massive quantities will pile up on the region, not only making it impossible to use the runway for most of the year, but also present an enormous cleanup operation.

And even if a airstrip is constructed (no chance of a concerete one, no ice can handle 25KN/m^3 ), landing a aircraft weighing 120 tones and carrying 30 tons will most certainly cause failure of ice surface.

I'd advice looking at the nearby mountain peaks, spread out in a long line( to the left of your airstrip) as a possible viable zone, but will require collosal excavation/bulldozing activities.

 

[arnabmit]

We are talking about category-4 & category-5 cold. Thermal blankets, chemical heaters and blow torches are used to bring the temperature up of any engine before they can be operated. Conditions are such that metal becomes like glass and rubber becomes like metal. An ice tractor takes almost 2-3hrs to warm up enough to run, that too with externally injected alcohol starting fluid before fuel with anti-freeze kicks in. -50 is the kind of temperature where even anti-freeze freezes. Snow gets into air intakes air filters, melts, then re-freezes into solid ice. Even wet batteries become completely useless. Sometimes you are required to keep every machinery running 24x7 because if they are shut down once, they will stay dead till the weather thaws.

Here are the SOPs to operate machinery under category-2 conditions. Imagine what it would be for category-5!
The 21 best practices for winter equipment operation | Equipment World | Construction Equipment, News and Information | Heavy Construction Equipment

Some ideas can also be obtained from this page, which provide guidelines for similar antarctic conditions.
The USAP Portal: Science and Support in Antarctica - USAP Field Manual

Oils, diesel and petrol have additives added so that they don't 'freeze' including that for artillery guns!

In so far as metals and metals on weaponry still functioning, now that you have mentioned such details, I wonder how they are function under such adverse temperature conditions.! But they seem to be functioning!

Seems that I never gave it a thought!