From freedom fighters to terrorists: US attitude shift

[asianobserve]

And while we are on the subject, I will not be surprised if the older Boston bomber was a CIA "asset" gone bad just like Headley who is in a US jail now after helping Pakistani terrorists kill many US and Israelis in Mumbai attacks.
Remember Russians had warned CIA against the elder sibling after his return from Chechnya six months back!!

In the realm of possibilities (conspiracy theories), this might be plausible. But it would be the FBI and not the CIA that will try to turn him into an asset.

 

[asianobserve]

Despite the fact that you hardly spare a day picking a fight with @W.G.Ewald, you are a downright Americo-phile.

Let's just say I have an eccentric hobby.

You would go to any extent to justify what the US government is doing. You are more patriotic towards the US, than even most Americans. Let's call a spade a spade. These people in CIA are a bunch of self serving myopes. As a matter of fact, a spade would be a positive overstatement, because I see a spade as more useful than these people in CIA. Least talked about FBI - heck, even after been tipped off by the Russians a year ago, this bombing happened. I do, however, agree in most part, with what you have said, except that I do not find any sense of "justice" in your justification.

What can I say? I love taking a contrarian approach. Anyway, as I asked earlier above, as an India would it be okay for you if your government officials abroad are spending Billions upon Billions of your tax dollars on matters that will not directly benefit you (and directly benefits other countries just for the sake of being generous)?

 

[asianobserve]

"among the most skeptical people....": As far as their foreign policy is concerned, I'll disagree with that.

Except that a lot of Americans don't really care about the World outside their borders.

 

[tramp]

I personally think...Islam was probably given by God long ago to unify the Arabic peoples, otherwise they would still realistically be waging tribal wars in their peninsula...but somewhere along the road, it got sidetracked. I also have the impression that it was not meant to spread as it did - that it was only meant for Arabia.

It is good that China for the most part learned from India rather than the violent religions of hate from the Middle East. Our civilization has flourished with the aid of Buddhism.

Do you think that Islam has enriched Indian culture and society, though? I have read that Sikhism developed partly from Islam.

The problem is not with the religion per se. But with the way some choose to interpret it for their personal glory. The only way to contain the terror is for every government to listen in on the Friday sermons the mullahs make in mosques and punish those who preach hate. If that is done today, I am sure, about 99% per cent of the Mullahs in Pakistan and a good percentage in other countries will land in jail. It is this hate-filled sermons that prepare the ground and from there on the young minds begin to dream of the glory in the other world for his deeds here.

 

[pmaitra]

I said "Wahabbism" and "political Islam." You cannot deny that Komenei first used Islam to galvanize a political cause against the Shah.

Yes, Khomeini used political Islam, so you are right, except the al-Saud family did it first. Actually, the first political Islam was galvanized by Saladdin.

 

[pmaitra]

Anyway, as I asked earlier above, as an India would it be okay for you if your government officials abroad are spending Billions upon Billions of your tax dollars on matters that will not directly benefit you (and directly benefits other countries just for the sake of being generous)?

I am against Indian government spending tax payers' money to support terrorists in other countries (like Obama trying to help Syrian Islamic Terrorists or Clinton helping Albanian Islamic Terrorists), but I am up for it if it is for humanitarian purposes (like India helping in the reconstruction of Afghanistan).

 

[tramp]

Yes, Khomeini used political Islam, so you are right, except the al-Saud family did it first. Actually, the first political Islam was galvanized by Saladdin.

Islam has always been political. Mohammed himself used it as a political and administrative tool. The first thing he did after fleeing to Madina to escape persecution in Mecca was to formulate the Constitution of Yathrib which became the constitution of the caliphates and is expected to be the constitution of every truly Islamic state.

 

[sorcerer]

That's exactly my point. Self-serving and devoid of moral courage. All this rhetoric about WOT is just an eyewash. And these so-called "their priorities" need not exactly serve the safety of American people as it has been proven time and again. It is the priority of some mofos of CIA.



Soviet Union would have anyway collapsed because it was an artificial clutch of nationalities bunched together by a dying ideology of Leninist Marxism. The Afghan war might have just hastened it.



What should be their priorities? Safety of their own people. And there were dozens of their people and from their allied countries in those killed in the Mumbai attacks directly traced back to elements in Pakistan establishment. That is where the danger is. So you nurture terrorists in one country for what you call serving your "priorities" and get your own people killed in another country!! How does that look, if not downright stupid?
[/B].

This is the exact Spot for Terrorists to Strike.
Because...most of the time, Unca Sam with his think tanks +media+analysts+strategists+men in black suits are trying to tell a colorful bed time story to the Tax payers of US and justify their "cause" in the fight on WoT.[ They coin the best words and phrases.]
Now..since that "awesome tactic" of supporting "freedom fighters" is justified by their own politicos in front of media and the whole world, the terrorists know that their agenda will be shielded by ignorance of US.

Good terrorists or Bad terrorits,when they get a chance, they strike back at US, The Evil Empire. That is what they want to earn 72 virgins+Certificate of merrit.

US ends up losing its credibility as a nation in front of the whole world. Their big ego is deflated with their treasury earnings.In diplomatic dances,their dance partners whisper in their ears the 3 awesome words -"Told you so" and Unca Sam can only blush.
Sad..

 

[asianobserve]

Yes, Khomeini used political Islam, so you are right, except the al-Saud family did it first. Actually, the first political Islam was galvanized by Saladdin.

Modern political Islam I think can be traced to Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[pmaitra]

Modern political Islam I think can be traced to Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.

Maybe, but that's going too far. Let's focus on the US attitude shift, or hypocrisy towards terrorism or rebellion (depends upon whether the US has yet been bombed or not).

 

[tramp]

In the realm of possibilities (conspiracy theories), this might be plausible. But it would be the FBI and not the CIA that will try to turn him into an asset.

Ok its just plausible.... but no point differentiating between FBI and CIA.... they cooperate and collude.

 

[tramp]

Maybe, but that's going too far. Let's focus on the US attitude shift, or hypocrisy towards terrorism or rebellion (depends upon whether the US has yet been bombed or not).

The litmus test of an attitude shift, which I doubt, will be in South Asia.

 

[pmaitra]

In the realm of possibilities (conspiracy theories), this might be plausible. But it would be the FBI and not the CIA that will try to turn him into an asset.

Even such a conspiracy theory would be a face saver for US Foreign Policy and CIA, given the international goof-ups the US has been doing since 1979.

 

[asianobserve]

Maybe, but that's going too far. Let's focus on the US attitude shift, or hypocrisy towards terrorism or rebellion (depends upon whether the US has yet been bombed or not).

Hypocrisy or not the US knows what it wants. As I said international politics is more complicated than the good and evil World of Bush, Jr. Those who are terrorists to us may be pawns aimed at another party or they may be the lesser evil that can be dealt with later on. In a lot of ways the WOT is like counter-insurgency. You have to prioritise and categorize the "other side." Who is the most pressing problem? Who can be contained? Are there on the other side that can be turned into assets or turned against the more pressing problem? Who are those on the other side that can be accommodated at least until the most pressing problem is dealt with? WHo are those that can really be converted to your side? TO take on all of "them" at the same time without differentiation would be a huge blunder.

 

[asianobserve]

Even such a conspiracy theory would be a face saver for US Foreign Policy and CIA, given the international goof-ups the US has been doing since 1979.

Nobody is perfect in international relations, certainly not India. But the one thing that is admirable to America is its ability to learn from their mistakes.

 

[pmaitra]

Nobody is perfect in international relations, certainly not India. But the one thing that is admirable to America is its ability to learn from their mistakes.

Here, I corrected that for you:

"But the one thing that is admirable to America is its ability to not learn from their mistakes." (sarcasm)

 

[sorcerer]

Nobody is perfect in international relations, certainly not India. But the one thing that is admirable to America is its ability to learn from their mistakes.

Yeah very true..
According to the current scenario..They have not learned anything or made enough mistakes.

 

[tramp]

Nobody is perfect in international relations, certainly not India. But the one thing that is admirable to America is its ability to learn from their mistakes.

Ability to learn is not a faculty I will grudge in Americans. They have repeatedly embroiled themselves in wars they cannot win or sustain. That's another story.

Bush and Cheney knew all the while that Pakistani army cannot be trusted as both Mullah Omar and Osama were hiding in Pakistan. And they kept pumping $$$$ into Pakistan coffers and their troops got killed by the terrorists the same $$$$ trained in Pakistan!!

And look where their beloved Osama turned out to be? And now Mullah Omar is ready to return to Kabul... and do they believe the one-eyed prophet of doom will hold back his soldiers of god from marching against the Great Satan? US could have got rid of him if they wanted, but unfortunately ISI wanted to keep a "strategic asset" alive in his Quetta safe-house.

All the while Bush and Cheney fooled their beloved American people.

 

[sorcerer]

"There was a saying in Washington that lawyers ran the government, but spies ran the lawyers"
Yes, I quote it from a novel, but it sounds true.

Quiet a lot of money is "allocated" for WoT.
The allocation of such importance is NOT made public categorically because of the factors pertaining to "National Security."
That means, you need a certain "realistic cover" for all those "unrealistic spending".
How else can you help your corporate friends survive a recession?How else can you create a shit hole for yourself in South Asia?How else can you create an arms race, where your corporate friends are the winners?

For a Common citizen.nothing beats the actions and news on WoT.You can learn every day from the news paper that, your money is being spent on WORLD PEACE and your backyard safe from terrorists. Wow!!! Soo touching.

But its okay when you wake and find a terrorist hiding in a boat in your backyard.
This can be solved by staging an efficient PR.

Todays rule book says
"Thou Shalt Take In The Name of WoT and Thou Shalt Commit Logical Fallacies."

 

[civfanatic]

Islam has always been political. Mohammed himself used it as a political and administrative tool. The first thing he did after fleeing to Madina to escape persecution in Mecca was to formulate the Constitution of Yathrib which became the constitution of the caliphates and is expected to be the constitution of every truly Islamic state.

Yes, Muhammad was not just a religious figure but also a politician and general. His actions set the precedent for the next 1400 years of Islam, in which politics and religion were (for the most part) inseparable. This legacy still holds back many Islamic countries even today. They really need either a secular nationalist revolution like that of Ataturk's Turkey, or a more sweeping, pan-Islamic change like the Protestant Reformation.