France, Russia, and the Mistral Saga

[Daredevil]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

what is STX?

STX Europe AS - is the company that is building Mistrals along with DCNS.

 

[asianobserve]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

I respect France, because, it seems to make a sincere attempt at deciding its foreign policy that benefits France, regardless of what others think. That is what an independent and sovereign nation is supposed to do.

If it is in France's interest to not sell those ships to Russia, France should refuse to sell them.
If it is in France's interest to sell those ships to Russia, France should sell them.

That is for France, and France alone to decide; not NATO. If there is any "shame," as you put it, it is the fact that UK has become an aide-de-camp for the United States.

So you like it when independent countries do not just aimlessly follow the foreign policy of bigger powers? That's nice. But how do you reconcile your view with your vehement, almost blind defense of Russia's, clamping down of its neighbors' (like Georgia and Ukraine) desire to carve their own independent foreign policies?

I heard you use the word "hypocrisy" many times when referring to Western powers. This could be a good time to ponder the meaning of that word. Anyway, your position reminds me of my mother's neat little saying, "careful when you point at somebody for 4 of your fingers point back at you."

 

[pmaitra]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

So you like it when independent countries do not just aimlessly follow the foreign policy of bigger powers? That's nice. But how do you reconcile your view with your vehement, almost blind defense of Russia's, clamping down of its neighbors' (like Georgia and Ukraine) desire to carve their own independent foreign policies?

I heard you use the word "hypocrisy" many times when referring to Western powers. This could be a good time to ponder the meaning of that word. Anyway, your position reminds me of my mother's neat little saying, "careful when you point at somebody for 4 of your fingers point back at you."

Incorrect analogy.

If France believes that if it toes the line of XYZ power, it will benefit France, then they are free to do so. If they believe that toeing the line of XYZ power hurts France, then it should be free to rebuff that XYZ power. The point being, the decision should come from France, and France alone, and not under pressure from XYZ power.

My defense of Russia is not blind. It is well reasoned and justified. Just because you choose to remain blind to the reasons, does not make the reasons disappear.

Regarding "hypocrisy," there is none. You may think so, but then what else could be expected of you? Pressurizing India does not work. Need examples? NPT, CTBT, WTO, etc.. Ditto with France.*

* When I say "ditto," I am talking about "pressurizing France," not trying to link France with NPT, CTBT, WTO, etc.. I am clarifying, because you have a habit of going off on a tangent.

 

[asianobserve]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

Incorrect analogy.

If France believes that if it toes the line of XYZ power, it will benefit France, then they are free to do so. If they believe that toeing the line of XYZ power hurts France, then it should be free to rebuff that XYZ power. The point being, the decision should come from France, and France alone, and not under pressure from XYZ power.

My defense of Russia is not blind. It is well reasoned and justified. Just because you choose to remain blind to the reasons, does not make the reasons disappear.

Regarding "hypocrisy," there is none. You may think so, but then what else could be expected of you? Pressurizing India does not work. Need examples? NPT, CTBT, WTO, etc.. Ditto with France.

Why am I not surprised?

 

[Virendra]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

I didn't want to merge threads as we've run into 3 pages and this is a new development after some gap.
But here's a bit of history on this case, what has been happening till now :
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...seals-russia-france-special-relationship.html
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...gotiations-fail-amphibious-assault-ships.html

 

[HMS Astute]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

I respect France, because, it seems to make a sincere attempt at deciding its foreign policy that benefits France, regardless of what others think. That is what an independent and sovereign nation is supposed to do.

If it is in France's interest to not sell those ships to Russia, France should refuse to sell them.
If it is in France's interest to sell those ships to Russia, France should sell them.

That is for France, and France alone to decide; not NATO. If there is any "shame," as you put it, it is the fact that UK has become an aide-de-camp for the United States.

sure. that's why france is regarded as a country without a strong political power when it comes to issues like this. france will sell anything to anyone if it gets the money. i don't think any western nation would like to see french made warships firing and launching missiles at vulnerable european countries at our doorstep. and france is technically no longer an independent sovereign nation since it no longer even has it's own currency, central bank or boarder control lol, quite opposite to the uk which does not need to ask the germans for permission everytime when making the decisions. if they do not want to be a part of nato military alliance, they can just walk out and won't be missed. they have done it before and then they decided to join the mighty club again for some reasons. i am sure you wouldn't appreciate if russia sold two massive warships to pakistan.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

sure. that's why france is regarded as a country without a strong political power when it comes to issues like this.

France is regarded as [. . .], by whom?

I think France is much stronger (politically) than many other countries that follow Uncle Sam like a bleating lamb wherever Uncle Sam goes.

france will sell anything to anyone if it gets the money.

UK will give a cosy home in London to any Russian oligarch for money, even if he is a criminal and fraud of the highest order, like Boris Berezovsky.

i don't think any western nation would like to see french made warships firing and launching missiles at vulnerable european countries at our doorstep.

Fear-mongering. Won't happen.

and france is technically no longer an independent sovereign nation since it no longer even has it's own currency, central bank or boarder control lol,

On the currency front, yes, it does not have full sovereignty. Just like the US.

quite opposite to the uk which does not need to ask the germans for permission everytime when making the decisions. if they do not want to be a part of nato military alliance, they can just walk out and won't be missed. they have done it before and then they decided to join the mighty club again for some reasons.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

i am sure you wouldn't appreciate if russia sold two massive warships to pakistan.

Non sequitur, and quite irrelevant. Pakistan has been receiving military hardware from many sources. How is that related to this thread?

 

[Virendra]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

sure. that's why france is regarded as a country without a strong political power when it comes to issues like this. france will sell anything to anyone if it gets the money.

That is more or less true for Russia and US as well.

i don't think any western nation would like to see french made warships firing and launching missiles at vulnerable european countries at our doorstep. and france is technically no longer an independent sovereign nation since it no longer even has it's own currency, central bank or boarder control lol

Well it still sits in the UNSC I think and is not going anywhere in the near future.
quite opposite to the uk which does not need to ask the germans for permission everytime when making the decisions. if they do not want to be a part of nato military alliance, they can just walk

out and won't be missed. they have done it before and then they decided to join the mighty club again for some reasons. i am sure you wouldn't appreciate if russia sold two massive warships to pakistan.

Russians are not world renowned, professional, export class terrorists; Pakistan is.
Beyond that, anyone can have grudges for anything that the others do. That is just fine.
We don't like the Americans and Chinese arming Pakistan either, but has it stopped yet?

Regards,
Virendra

 

[cobra commando]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

Russia orders Ka-52K helicopters for Mistral-class LHDs - IHS Jane's 360

 

[cobra commando]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

ITAR-TASS: World - Russia to fully pay for Mistral contract after 2nd ship delivery

 

[Zebra]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

French Mistral Sale Strategy: Buy Time To Maneuver | Defense News | defensenews.com

Sep. 6, 2014 - 04:14PM |
By PIERRE TRAN

PARIS — France's surprise suspension of the sale of a Mistral-class helicopter carrier to Russia is seen as a delaying yet diplomatic move to buy time on a troubled arms deal and ease pressure on French President François Hollande with other leaders.

The delicate French repositioning — which is not a cancellation — took place as Ukrainian forces fought with rebels to regain control of Donetsk and Mariupol, eastern Ukraine, and Russian President Vladimir Putin pitched a cease-fire plan to Kiev.

Hollande's "on hold" decision came on the eve of the two-day NATO summit, where US President Barack Obama and some 60 heads of state and government met at the Celtic Manor resort in Newport, Wales, on Sept. 4.

A delivery of the first Mistral ship, which bears its name Vladivostok in Cyrillic script on the hull, was due for delivery by the end of October. Now that the deal is on hold, France will reap the financial, economic and reputational consequences.

The Elysée president's office declined comment......

 

[cobra commando]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

First Mistral class LHD for Russia, Vladivostok, started sea trials with 200 sailors on board

Vladivostok, the first French-built Mistral-class LHD built for Russia left STX shipyard in St Nazaire this morning to start a series of sea trials with 200 Russian sailors on board. Under the contract, the first amphibious assault ship is to be delivered to Russia by the end of the year, while the second ship, the Sevastopol, is due to arrive next year. Earlier this month, an official statement made by the French presidency explained the delivery of Vadivostok is on hold until November.

The Mistral-class LHD Vladivostok, carrying some 200 Russian sailors leavin Saint-Nazaire on Saturday morning to start a series of trials at sea

The Vladivostok had left docks at 3:30 a.m. local time (1:30 GMT), but was forced to wait until the tide thus eventually sailing out to sea at 7:20 a.m. (5:20 GMT) accompanied by two tugboats, Agence France-Presse reported. This is the first time the ship goes to sea since its arrival to Saint- Nazaire in June where two crews of Russian sailors, a total of 400 crew members, have been awaiting sea trials.

Russian Navy Mistral class LHD Vladivostok
The ships are capable of carrying 16 helicopters, four landing craft, 70 armored vehicles and 450 soldiers, and are expected to be deployed with Russia's Pacific Fleet.
First Mistral class LHD for Russia, Vladivostok, started sea trials with 200 sailors on board

 

[cobra commando]

Re: France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship

TASS: Russia - Mistral helicopter carrier for Russia ends planned stage of sea trials

 

[HMS Astute]

French officials said they will not deliver the first Mistral ship

French officials said Wednesday that they will not deliver the first Mistral-class amphibious warship that Russia had ordered from Paris as part of a $1.7 billion weapons sale, a strong rebuke after months of aggressive actions by Russia in eastern Ukraine.

French officials said in statement that they assess the situation in Ukraine to be "serious," and believe Russia's actions undermine security in Europe. The statement did not say whether France will deliver the ship in the future, but said the conditions for it to do so at this time "have so far not been met," despite the possibility of a cease-fire in Ukraine. "The recent actions by Russia in eastern Ukraine are contrary to the basic notions of security in Europe," the statement said.

France backs off sending Mistral warship to Russia in $1.7 billion deal - The Washington Post​

 

[HMS Astute]

Re: French officials said they will not deliver the first Mistral ship

Russia to sue France if Mistral contract canceled: official

MOSCOW, Oct. 23 (Xinhua) -- Russia would file a lawsuit against France if the latter cancels a contract on building Mistral-class helicopter carriers for Moscow, Chief of Kremlin administration Sergei Ivanov said Thursday.

Russia to sue France if Mistral contract canceled: official - Xinhua | English.news.cn​

 

[IBSA]

Re: French officials said they will not deliver the first Mistral ship

Russia to build its own helicopter carriers after Mistral contract ends - rear admiral

Russia October 25
"We don't depend on France, it was one of military-technical cooperation contracts, nothing more", - Rear Admiral Viktor Barsuk told

MOSCOW, October 25. /TASS/. Under a naval construction program, Russia will be building its own helicopter carriers, a deputy commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy said on Saturday in comments on the Mistral ship deal with France on hold over Ukraine.

"We don't depend on France, it was one of military-technical cooperation contracts, nothing more, and the construction of ships of this kind is planned in the shipbuilding program, they will be built at Russian enterprises," Rear Admiral Viktor Barsuk, in charge of armament issues, told Echo of Moscow radio on Saturday.

Russia and France signed a 1.2 billion euro deal for the delivery of two Mistral-class ships in June 2011. The first vessel, the Vladivostok, was floated out in October 2013. It was due to be transferred to Russia this autumn, but the transfer is still pending amid sanctions imposed on Russia over Ukraine.

The second ship, the Sevastopol, is supposed to be delivered in 2015. France will have to pay Russia a penalty fee if it fails to fulfill the contract.

Russia came under Western sanctions, originally visa bans and asset freezes, for incorporation of Crimea in mid-March after a coup in Ukraine in February. Later, Western claims that Russia is taking part in hostilities in southeast Ukraine, which Moscow has repeatedly denied, resulted in more serious, sectoral, restrictions.

TASS: Russia - Russia to build its own helicopter carriers after Mistral contract ends - rear admiral

 

[IBSA]

Re: French officials said they will not deliver the first Mistral ship

Front National leader Le Pen says France should deliver Mistral to Russia

World October 24
France should stop being s US lapdog and become a sovereign country free to make its own choice, Marine Le Pen, the leader of France's third-largest party Front National, says

PARIS, October 24. /TASS/. Marine Le Pen, the leader of France's third-largest party Front National, demanded on Friday that France fulfilled its contract on the delivery of Mistral-class helipcopter carriers to Russia.

"France has taken obligations under the contract on the delivery of vessels to Russia. However, we now see that it has broken its obligation on the US president's orders," Le Pen said.

She added that no other country would sign any contracts with France that scraps deals at the last moments on Barack Obama's orders.

"France should stop being s US lapdog and become a sovereign country free to make its own choice," Le Pen said.

Russia and France signed a €1.2 billion deal for the delivery of two Mistral-class ships in June 2011. The first vessel, the Vladivostok, was floated out in October 201. The second ship, the Sevastopol, is supposed to be delivered in 2015. France will have to pay Russia a penalty fee if it fails to fulfil the contract.

TASS: World - Front National leader Le Pen says France should deliver Mistral to Russia

 

[jouni]

Re: French officials said they will not deliver the first Mistral ship

Maybe Gerald Depardieu can help Vlad get those ships. Le Pen is far right, anti immigration, she found soul mate in Russia.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: French officials said they will not deliver the first Mistral ship

Maybe Gerald Depardieu can help Vlad get those ships. Le Pen is far right, anti immigration, she found soul mate in Russia.

Immigrant Population:

Rank	Country	Immigrant Population
1	USA	45,785,090
2	Russia	11,048,064
8	India	5,338,486
103	Finland	293,167

Source: List of countries by foreign-born population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess I am not getting what your point is.

 

[jouni]

Re: French officials said they will not deliver the first Mistral ship

Immigrant Population:

Rank	Country	Immigrant Population
1	USA	45,785,090
2	Russia	11,048,064
8	India	5,338,486
103	Finland	293,167

Source: List of countries by foreign-born population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess I am not getting what your point is.

You are right, Russia is not anti immigration. We could take more, but who wants to come here to freeze..m