For India, Ghost of Planned Economy are causing starvation

[Ray]

The wheat MSP is around Rs 1250 this year and I have seen many people now selling it to the open market for Rs 1100, because storage costs are just too much.

This is a political ploy.

Give IT free existence, subsidised power, subsidised fertiliser, but ensure that they have reasons to feel deprived.

During election, give handouts and false sops!

But do not EVER organise storage or else where would the heartburn be that can be calmed by false promise during election time?

 

[Ray]

Benagli farmers might be very rich. They might have lots of storage and may not need any loan. Don't know really.

But most of the farmers in North-Central India are quite poor except Jatland!

Bengal is the only State that had an equitable land reform.

No other state has done so.

However, none are rich.

They suffer the same stupidity as the rest of India as far as the Storage and Pricing is concerned!

 

[Galaxy]

Ten thousands of poor farmers are committing suicide every year. According to NCRB, 100 thousand died in last few years that also as per official data. Imagine the real number!!

It's not only because of some crop failure or flood/drought. Mostly, it's because of the huge debt. Recent example is Vidarbha (Cotton) where Farmers had to borrow money to buy the expensive seeds and committed suicide when they could not pay back the money.

I don't have any data but i wonder how many farmers can afford to build storage considering the fact that their land-bank are limited with little money for investment that also if there is no indebtedness to money-lenders with risk-taking ability ?

India is a poor country and farmers are poorest!

Agriculture is the most neglected sector and India cannot become economical super power until all government do something for farmers!!

 

[pmaitra]

Benagli farmers might be very rich. They might have lots of storage and may not need any loan. Don't know really.

But most of the farmers in North-Central India are quite poor except Jatland!

Bengali farmers are not rich, but because the income disparity is comparatively less, they can afford certain things, which would be costlier in other parts of India.

Ten thousands of poor farmers are committing suicide every year. According to NCRB, 100 thousand died in last few years that also as per official data. Imagine the real number!!

It's not only because of some crop failure or flood/drought. Mostly, it's because of the huge debt. Recent example is Vidarbha (Cotton) where Farmers had to borrow money to buy the expensive seeds and committed suicide when they could not pay back the money.

I don't have any data but i wonder how many farmers can afford to build storage considering the fact that their land-bank are limited with little money for investment that also if there is no indebtedness to money-lenders with risk-taking ability ?

India is a poor country and farmers are poorest!

You are correct when you include the national statistics. If a farmer cannot afford 25 sq. metre elevated storage made out of wood and corrugated sheet, then I am really sorry for that farmer. Somebody needs to step in and help them.

Vidharbha is a different story altogether. Sharad Pawar, being as wealthy as he is, could have done a lot more than what he has achieved.

The entire Western Ghats are to blame. While Mumbai is inundated with floods, rainwater rarely reaches further East. Who is to blame? Geography is one thing, but isn't Maharashtra government ignoring the harsh realities in the wake of the fact the Maharashtra has high PCI?

Why not tax Mumbaikars more and divert that money to Vidharbha? If Mumbai can afford Metro, Bandra-Worli Sea Link, Monorail, and the scores of flyovers, can they not build some water pipelines and canals to help irrigation in Vidharbha?

I wonder where the priorities lie.

 

[Payeng]

pmaitra how much of Taxing the Mumbaikars will do?

 

[pmaitra]

pmaitra how much of Taxing the Mumbaikars will do?

As much as it is required to keep hundreds of their fellow Maharastra farmers from committing suicide.

I have been a Mumbaikar taxpayer for 2.5 years myself. I know how much taxes I used to pay.

 

[Mad Indian]

pmaitra how much of Taxing the Mumbaikars will do?

Tax them into oblivion :evil:

Let Mumbaikars become as poor as the sickstates of India

Then Come to TN. stupid state. It is wealthy despite being a practical desert. It should not be allowed to be that way. Tax it to oblivion too.

One thing which is clear though is that we never learn from our Mistakes

 

[pmaitra]

Tax them into oblivion :evil:

Let Mumbaikars become as poor as the sickstates of India

Then Come to TN. stupid state. It is wealthy despite being a practical desert. It should bot be allowed to be that way. Tax it to oblivion too.

ONe thing which is clear though is that we never learn from our Mistakes

Mumbai is not a state. Maharashtra is. Mumbai is the capital of Maharashtra.

Maharashtra already has a very high farmer suicide rate. How much more sick do you want it to get? Or rather, how many more hundreds of farmers must die, so that you and others would agree to a higher taxation of Mumbaikars?

 

[Mad Indian]

Mumbai is not a state. Maharashtra is. Mumbai is the capital of Maharashtra.

Maharashtra already has a very high farmer suicide rate. How much more sick do you want it to get? Or rather, how many more hundreds of farmers must die, so that you and other would agree to a higher taxation of Mumbaikars?

Taxation can do jack shit with the level of bureaucracy and and ineffiency in our govt.

As I said, we fail to learn from our mistakes. We should free up the markets and and reduce the bureaucracy. Without any outside interference, the economy can take care of its own. If at you want the money to be spent, spend it in infrastructure(which will include irrigation ponds, canals, check dams et al ), which makes sense. But for that, I think we are paying enough taxes already.

 

[pmaitra]

Taxation can do jack shit with the level of bureaucracy and and ineffiency in our govt.

As I said, we fail to learn from our mistakes. We should free up the markets and and reduce the bureaucracy. Without any outside interference, the economy can take care of its own. If at you want the money to be spent, spend it in infrastructure, which makes sense. But for that, I think we are paying enough taxes already.

All this talk of freeing up the markets and reducing bureaucracy is extremely vague.

What concrete steps do you recommend?

How about building a canal connecting the coast with the Nagpur region, and using power to desalinate and pump water into the farmlands there?

With lack of opportunities and dwindling agricultural scope, most of Vidharbha will migrate to the already overcrowded Mumbai (or Indore). Thus, there will be less supply of food, and increase in food prices, and more mouths to feed in Mumbai. Either way, Mumbaikars will have to shell out more money, till things come to a point where India will have to import food from outside, and people will probably spend a lot more on food than what they would have paid if they were taxed for building irrigation projects.

Better make good use of the vast tracts of land Maharashtra has. Encourage agriculture there. If people see good prospects, they would rather stay back in their villages. They are not doing so, because, farming is not a very lucrative option.

Edit: I see you have added irrigation projects. Good. I agree. Where will the money come from?

 

[Mad Indian]

All this talk of freeing up the markets and reducing bureaucracy is extremely vague.

What concrete steps do you recommend?

Complete overhaul of the system to remove the clutches of the govt on the economy so that every one produces and sells what he wants and how he wants it in a fair way, with only govt job being ensuring the "Free market, without monopoly"

How about building a canal connecting Mumbai with the Nagpur region, and using power to pump water into the farmlands there.

I see you have added irrigation projects. Good. I agree. Where will the money come from?

Agreed, but the money we already pay is enough to invest in these projects, if not, we can have some sort of PPP projects to take care of that but not govt.

With lack of opportunities and dwindling agricultural scope, most of Vidharbha will migrate to the already overcrowded Mumbai. Thus, there will be less supply of food, and increase in food prices, and more mouths to feed in Mumbai. Either way, Mumbaikars will have to shell out more money, till things come to a point where India will have to import food from outside, and people will probably spend a lot more on food than what they wold have paid if they were taxed for building irrigation projects.

Again all this tax will go to the drain for the with the bureacracy

Fun fact- GoI spends about 4Rs. for every 1Rs. which reaches the poor. This it the problem with your suggestion

And the migration to cities is a good thing. What we should actually do is accomodate them with proper infrastructure in he cities and construct sister cties or tier two/three cities in the Country- just like USA.

Better make good use of the vast tracts of land Maharashtra has. Encourage agriculture there. If people see good prospects, they would rather stay back in their villages. They are not doing so, because, farming is not a very lucrative option.

NO man. IT wont work. The % of people involved in Agriculture which is a non-productive industry is very high in india- close to 65% against that of the "Rich", "industrialised" countries where it varies from 2-8% max. We have too many farmers than necessary.

The thing is to make the agriculture un-attractive enough to discourage the farmers from hoarding their lands and drive them to towns in other "Productive" industries. This should be done in a way that farmers dont suicide of course. But the thing is, those farmers, who do that usually will sell their agri lands to the other agriculturalists so that the no. of farmers falls while the food production is kept intact

 

[Payeng]

I think the incident was more a issue of misgovernance then lack of state fund.

from wiki I got this
Vidarbha was in the media for a spate of farmer suicides in recent years ostensibly because of the falling Minimum Support Price for cotton. The problem is complex and root causes include lopsided policies of the World Trade Organisation and developed nations' subsidies to their cotton farmers which make Vidarbha's cotton uncompetitive in world markets. Consequently Vidarbha is plagued by high rates of school drop outs, penniless widows left in the wake of suicides, loan sharks and exploitation of the vulnerable groups.
The Indian government had promised to increase the minimum rate for cotton by approximately Rs 100 ($2) but reneged on its promise by reducing the Minimum Support Price further. This resulted in more suicides as farmers were ashamed to default on debt payments to loan sharks. "In 2006, 1,044 suicides were reported in Vidarbha alone - that's one suicide every eight hours."
In April 2007 a development consulting group named Green Earth Social Development Consulting produced a report after doing an audit of the state and central government relief packages in Vidarbha. The report's conclusions were:
Farmers' demands were not taken into account while preparing the relief package. Neither were civil society organisations, local government bodies, panchayats etc. consulted.
The relief packages were mostly amalgamations of existing schemes. Apart from the farmer helpline and the direct financial assistance, there was scarcely anything new being offered. Pumping extra funds into additional schemes shows that no new idea was applied to solve a situation where existing measures had obviously failed.
The farmer helpline did not give any substantial help to farmers except in Karnataka.
The basis for selection of beneficiaries under the assistance scheme was not well-defined. Also, type of assistance to be given led to problems like a farmer needing a pair of bullocks getting a pump set and vice versa (or a farmer who has no access to water sources being given pump sets)
Awareness regarding the package was also fairly low.

It do not state that their was a lack of fund but it was a lack of responsibility. Taxing till throat for a government mismanagement isn't a socialistic approach either.

 

[pmaitra]

WTO has been the devil in quite a few cases.

What about the flailing sugar cane farming in the Nagpur region? Surely, that was not affected like cotton was?

There are other alternative crops to look into if cotton isn't that competitive.

The government not meeting the support price promises is criminal misdemeanour. Why do people still get elected, who cannot guard the interests of that region?

It's a big mess.

 

[pmaitra]

Complete overhaul of the system to remove the clutches of the govt on the economy so that every one produces and sells what he wants and how he wants it in a fair way, with only govt job being ensuring the "Free market, without monopoly"



Agreed, but the money we already pay is enough to invest in these projects, if not, we can have some sort of PPP projects to take care of that but not govt.



Again all this tax will go to the drain for the with the bureacracy

Fun fact- GoI spends about 4Rs. for every 1Rs. which reaches the poor. This it the problem with your suggestion

And the migration to cities is a good thing. What we should actually do is accomodate them with proper infrastructure in he cities and construct sister cties or tier two/three cities in the Country- just like USA.

I would strongly recommend you find a job in Mumbai.

Sure, the government is inefficient, but then, had it not been for the government sponsored FCI, we could not have put an end to famines in India.

There is need for streamlining, and of that there is no doubt. The government has to stay involved, not too much, and yes, the free market should adjust itself.

Not all the tax is wasted. Much of it actually goes into building world class projects, like those I have mentioned. However, overcrowding of cities isn't something I look favourably at.

NO man. IT wont work. The % of people involved in Agriculture which is a non-productive industry is very high in india- close to 65% against that of the "Rich", "industrialised" countries where it varies from 2-8% max. We have too many farmers than necessary.

The thing is to make the agriculture un-attractive enough to discourage the farmers from hoarding their lands and drive them to towns in other "Productive" industries. This should be done in a way that farmers dont suicide of course. But the thing is, those farmers, who do that usually will sell their agri lands to the other agriculturalists so that the no. of farmers falls while the food production is kept intact

I see. You have made a valid point.

 

[Mad Indian]

I would strongly recommend you find a job in Mumbai.

Exactly. The problem with Mumbai is unplanned industrialisation and urbanisation. Which should be streamlined and made proper with proper planning and execution. For instance take Ahmedabad. There is a reason, many people are Modi fans.

Besides, did I not tell you we need sister cities and towns?

Sure, the government is inefficient, but then, had it not been for the government sponsored FCI, we could not have put an end to famines in India.

The famines in India would have been controlled in a much better fashion with Free market IMO, where the govt had stuck to building and maintaining of Dams, tanks, ponds , canals etc, without being involved in the socialist approach. The farmers who could not have afforded agriculture would have left the agriculture sooner and sold it to other farmers, and found the jobs easily available, because of free market. That way, we could have prevented Farmer suicides and also, kept up the famine in Check.

There is need for streamlining, and of that there is no doubt. The government has to stay involved, not too much, and yes, the free market should adjust itself.

Free market cant work side by side with a bureacracy of Nauseating proportions

Not all the tax is wasted. Much of it actually goes into building world class projects, like those I have mentioned. However, overcrowding of cities isn't something I look favourably at.

As I said, the cities must be developed with good infrastructure, rather than crying foul about it. I mean the govt does collect corporation.municipal tax et al right? What does it do with it?

I see. You have made a valid point.

I always make Valid points

 

[pmaitra]

^^

Agree with most of what you said except the famine part.

Had it not been for the government, we would have had private corporations turning into hoarders, and generating artificial famines to make more profits. This has happened in India many times.

FCI was an excellent effort by GoI, that no private company in those times could have matched.

 

[Mad Indian]

^^

Agree with most of what you said except the famine part.

Had it not been for the government, we would have had private corporations turning into hoarders, and generating artificial famines to make more profits. This has happened in India many times.

FCI was an excellent effort by GoI, that no private company in those times could have matched.

I said Free market as in pure Free market devoid of Monopoly.

The thing is , the lesser the govt control, the better the efficiency of the govt bereaucracy . This is so because we dont need bureaucracy for keeping the bureaucracy in check. I read a interesting comment on Bureacracy in Civilization game, said by some one important, dont know who- "Bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of an expanding bureacracy" This is the problem with bureacracy.

Buy keepin the bureaucracy minimal so that only the important stuff like, prevention of Monopoly is in Govt control, the monitering of the bureacracy would have been easier. Also, we need to at least make the bureacracy accountable and transparent. That way we can have a true Free market.

The above mentioned stuff regardin keeping bureacracy in check wont work in excessive bureacracy.

 

[pmaitra]

I said Free market as in pure Free market devoid of Monopoly.

The thing is , the lesser the govt control, the better the efficiency of the govt bereaucracy . This is so because we dont need bureaucracy for keeping the bureaucracy in check. I read a interesting comment on Bureacracy in Civilization game, said by some one important, dont know who- "Bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of an expanding bureacracy" This is the problem with bureacracy.

Buy keepin the bureaucracy minimal so that only the important stuff like, prevention of Monopoly is in Govt control, the monitering of the bureacracy would have been easier. Also, we need to at least make the bureacracy accountable and transparent. That way we can have a true Free market.

The above mentioned stuff regardin keeping bureacracy in check wont work in excessive bureacracy.

A pure free market with no government intervention is a dangerous thing.

It is believed that many competing companies actually helps the stakeholders. What if the competing companies decide to join ranks?

Pure free market is not all that hunky dory.

Read this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...t-companies-cartelisation-fines-11-firms.html

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

^^ It is not just the govt. but the attitude of people which matters. Many would like to die of hunger in their villages rather than migrate.

This is a classic movie by Bimal Roy which shows the above mentioned fact:

Do Bigha Zamin1953 Part 1/12 - YouTube

 

[pmaitra]

^^ It is not just the govt. but the attitude of people which matters. Many would like to die of hunger in their villages rather than migrate.

This is a classic movie by Bimal Roy which shows the above mentioned fact:

Do Bigha Zamin1953 Part 1/12 - YouTube

Yes, there are people who'd rather not migrate, but then, you are pointing to my post that talks about competing entities joining ranks. Have anything to comment on that?