F22 or F35 / PAKFA

[su30mki2017]

F22 From Preliminary design to production stage,
India is learning to build jets and should let pvt companies to do most of the work instead of useless PSU, by providing capital and r&d to pvt companies.

 

[Willy3]

If we continue to have current govt who is fully behind DRDO/ADA with heated rod, then I think our organisations would make stuff happen within deadline.

 

[Adioz]

Your demonstrator will fly in 2025, same as ours which is exactly what I said. If you want to fly a couple of preliminary designs is up to you but our programmes are on similar schedules. If your project doesn't work out you better be ready to join something. The days of expecting DRDO to deliver on time are long over so a backup plan is required. I am not saying don't go for it, just be ready if it doesn't work out on time like you were going to do with FGFA. SCAF would be your FGFA backup plan.

I don't have the patience to state the same thing twice. Not my fault that some numb-headed individual finds it hard to understand. Nevertheless, I will say again. FSED-I (Full Scale Engineering Development Phase I) has already started in AMCA program. Technology demonstrators of AMCA will finish their jobs and the next phase FSED-II will start in 2025. In FSED-II, AMCA PV and LSP aircraft will fly to test and integrate various configurations and components. That is the time when SCAF technology demonstrators will start flying. If SCAF avionics are developed by then, maybe we will see similar avionics in AMCA under a Joint Venture. But don't expect a nation like India to give up on complex technological goals just because of a less than optimal track record in project management and fear of failure. You should know better by now.

I would have agreed on having SCAF as a backup to FGFA if SCAF would be flying right now. FGFA is flying, and by the time SCAF takes to the skies, FGFA would be a mature platform. If IAF is really in dire straits (vis-a-vis J 20), they can always buy FGFA off the shelf in next decade. Or if they find AMCA to be inadequate, they can buy FGFA or SCAF in 2040. But its madness to stop your own fighter project and join another one even though you have a history of fighter aircraft development. We have already developed Tejas LCA, the next logical step is to go ahead with AMCA. Collaboration should be sought wherever possible to ensure no delays occur. Import substitution of avionics and engines can be a long term goal.

F22 From Preliminary design to production stage,
India is learning to build jets and should let pvt companies to do most of the work instead of useless PSU, by providing capital and r&d to pvt companies.

We will find out by year end who is the vendor selected for making NGTD-1 and NGTD-2 of AMCA. Its most likely going to be a private firm. Reportedly, many private firms had shown an interest in the EOI released by ADA.

 

[Armand2REP]

I don't have the patience to state the same thing twice. Not my fault that some numb-headed individual finds it hard to understand. Nevertheless, I will say again. FSED-I (Full Scale Engineering Development Phase I) has already started in AMCA program. Technology demonstrators of AMCA will finish their jobs and the next phase FSED-II will start in 2025. In FSED-II, AMCA PV and LSP aircraft will fly to test and integrate various configurations and components. That is the time when SCAF technology demonstrators will start flying. If SCAF avionics are developed by then, maybe we will see similar avionics in AMCA under a Joint Venture. But don't expect a nation like India to give up on complex technological goals just because of a less than optimal track record in project management and fear of failure. You should know better by now.

I don't expect India to give up anything. I expect them to replace the failed FGFA bid. The IAF Chief already said F-35 isn't an option. If that is so there is nothing but SCAF to choose from unless you believe that joke of a fighter the British pulled out of their 1990s dustbin. It is all cool with me so no reason to start the insults. IAF knows they need a backup plan which is why they started discussions for FGFA, it wasn't what they hoped so time to pick something else.

I would have agreed on having SCAF as a backup to FGFA if SCAF would be flying right now. FGFA is flying, and by the time SCAF takes to the skies, FGFA would be a mature platform. If IAF is really in dire straits (vis-a-vis J 20), they can always buy FGFA off the shelf in next decade. Or if they find AMCA to be inadequate, they can buy FGFA or SCAF in 2040. But its madness to stop your own fighter project and join another one even though you have a history of fighter aircraft development. We have already developed Tejas LCA, the next logical step is to go ahead with AMCA. Collaboration should be sought wherever possible to ensure no delays occur. Import substitution of avionics and engines can be a long term goal.

There are two things you are missing comparing SCAF to FGFA. We have a German bankroll and Dassault. Russia has no bankroll and a design bureau at the age of retirement. They designed the PAKFA around a Flanker airframe, it is like turning an F-15 into an F-15X, it is not a true stealth fighter and it never will be. It is certainly better than what they have and more than a match for China's J-20. It is not a match for an F-22 and certainly will not be for the SCAF. You can buy the SCAF in 2035, not only that the naval version will be the first produced. Russia has already cancelled plans for more Su-57 until the next gen radar and engine development are completed. That completed variant is the one to look out for, the one they have now has screws sticking out of it the production work was so shoddy.

We will find out by year end who is the vendor selected for making NGTD-1 and NGTD-2 of AMCA. Its most likely going to be a private firm. Reportedly, many private firms had shown an interest in the EOI released by ADA.

While the DRDO has had its work cut out dealing with an unforgiving air force, its frustrations with HAL have also boiled over. But with no more manoeuvering space on budgets and timelines, the two agencies have found common cause in getting things right with the AMCA.

“I strongly feel it is because of the model we use. We’ve been in touch with HAL’s chairman and he also agrees we are both at fault. We simply make our design and talk to HAL and then both sides decide the other fends for themselves. We cannot afford to have this approach with the AMCA. It has to be perfect from the start and fully coordinated,” Dr. Christopher said.

The DRDO chief informed Livefist that his team hoped to see an AMCA prototype take on its first flight by 2025.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...as-of-indias-amca-5th-generation-fighter.html

 

[Adioz]

I don't expect India to give up anything. I expect them to replace the failed FGFA bid. The IAF Chief already said F-35 isn't an option. If that is so there is nothing but SCAF to choose from unless you believe that joke of a fighter the British pulled out of their 1990s dustbin. It is all cool with me so no reason to start the insults. IAF knows they need a backup plan which is why they started discussions for FGFA, it wasn't what they hoped so time to pick something else.

There are two things you are missing comparing SCAF to FGFA. We have a German bankroll and Dassault. Russia has no bankroll and a design bureau at the age of retirement. They designed the PAKFA around a Flanker airframe, it is like turning an F-15 into an F-15X, it is not a true stealth fighter and it never will be. It is certainly better than what they have and more than a match for China's J-20. It is not a match for an F-22 and certainly will not be for the SCAF. You can buy the SCAF in 2035, not only that the naval version will be the first produced. Russia has already cancelled plans for more Su-57 until the next gen radar and engine development are completed. That completed variant is the one to look out for, the one they have now has screws sticking out of it the production work was so shoddy.

Thanks for understanding the importance AMCA holds for us.

Now, as far as replacing the failed FGFA bid is concerned, I would be more than happy if we decided to show the Muricans the middle finger on their plans to sell us the F-35. I would also be more than happy to see an aircraft like the SCAF in the IAF instead of the FGFA, geopolitics being one of the reasons.

But the question is "when"? That is a question IAF will answer in due time. If they plan to induct a 5th gen fighter next decade, FGFA is the only option. If OTOH, naval SCAF enters service in 2035, it would take till 2040 for IAF to be able to receive its first SCAF. A decade after AMCA attains IOC. At that point, if SCAF is not all that different from the AMCA, then IAF might choose to keep only the AMCA as its fifth generation fighter. The question is also of money.

While the DRDO has had its work cut out dealing with an unforgiving air force, its frustrations with HAL have also boiled over. But with no more manoeuvering space on budgets and timelines, the two agencies have found common cause in getting things right with the AMCA.

“I strongly feel it is because of the model we use. We’ve been in touch with HAL’s chairman and he also agrees we are both at fault. We simply make our design and talk to HAL and then both sides decide the other fends for themselves. We cannot afford to have this approach with the AMCA. It has to be perfect from the start and fully coordinated,” Dr. Christopher said.

The DRDO chief informed Livefist that his team hoped to see an AMCA prototype take on its first flight by 2025.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...as-of-indias-amca-5th-generation-fighter.html

Hate to sound like a broken record, but you leave me no choice. READ WHAT I WROTE. I said that the AMCA Tech Demonstrators will fly by 2023 and that the next phase involving Prototype Vehicles will start only in 2025. That is exactly what the DRDO chief is saying when he says he expects AMCA prototype first flight by 2025. Total four PVs are planned. But before the PV, two NGTDs (Next Gen Tech Demonstrators) are also planned, which will have their first flight in 2023.

 

[Armand2REP]

Thanks for understanding the importance AMCA holds for us.

Now, as far as replacing the failed FGFA bid is concerned, I would be more than happy if we decided to show the Muricans the middle finger on their plans to sell us the F-35. I would also be more than happy to see an aircraft like the SCAF in the IAF instead of the FGFA, geopolitics being one of the reasons.

But the question is "when"? That is a question IAF will answer in due time. If they plan to induct a 5th gen fighter next decade, FGFA is the only option. If OTOH, naval SCAF enters service in 2035, it would take till 2040 for IAF to be able to receive its first SCAF. A decade after AMCA attains IOC. At that point, if SCAF is not all that different from the AMCA, then IAF might choose to keep only the AMCA as its fifth generation fighter. The question is also of money.

If India orders 110 more Rafale you don't have to worry about when. That will hold you over for the next 40 years and you can spend the rest of your money on AMCA and use the offsets of Rafale into its development. You are going to need the production techniques of Rafale if you are going to build a 5th generation fighter that requires extremely tight precision. A Rafale production plant will give you those tools.

Hate to sound like a broken record, but you leave me no choice. READ WHAT I WROTE. I said that the AMCA Tech Demonstrators will fly by 2023 and that the next phase involving Prototype Vehicles will start only in 2025. That is exactly what the DRDO chief is saying when he says he expects AMCA prototype first flight by 2025. Total four PVs are planned. But before the PV, two NGTDs (Next Gen Tech Demonstrators) are also planned, which will have their first flight in 2023.

I heard what you said, the rest I leave for DRDO to figure out. If they fail the consequences are serious.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

^ What is SCAF?

Anyway, not too long ago India and US worked out a win-win deal. Under this deal Lockeed Martin was to move its F16 factory to India. This arrangement was made to replace India's Mig21s. But for some reason that is not clear to me, US Government backed out.

Can France propose a deal similar to what Lockeed Martin proposed? Keep in mind, this is a different ballgame. This one involves building large number of aircraft in India.

 

[Armand2REP]

^ What is SCAF?

Refer to post #12

Anyway, not too long ago India and US worked out a win-win deal. Under this deal Lockeed Martin was to move its F16 factory to India. This arrangement was made to replace India's Mig21s. But for some reason that is not clear to me, US Government backed out.

Can France propose a deal similar to what Lockeed Martin proposed? Keep in mind, this is a different ballgame. This one involves building large number of aircraft in India.

The offer of moving an F-16 factory to India is no different than the ones that have been made in Fokker Netherlands, Sabca Belgium, Samsung in Korea, Turkish Aircraft Industries in Turkey and the Greenville production line in the US. They make the frames and integrate the avionics/engines, but those subsystems don't come included with the deal. It is screwdriver work.

France can propose a better deal, we offer offsets like spending $1 billion of Safran's money to develop Kaveri. You won't get that from the US. If India orders more, we will offer more.

 

[arya]

If we continue to have current govt who is fully behind DRDO/ADA with heated rod, then I think our organisations would make stuff happen within deadline.

Thanks if current Govt repate then we have much better plans result oriented . we just want result, no free candy .

 

[Pulkit]

Your are right HAL/DRDO will take lots of lots time for AMCA and waste large amount of money ,

yes they are gonna take a lot of time and money even I have no hope with HAL/DRDO/ADA/IAF , but if it is home grown its still beneficial.

we can use them in other things ,

Like? you are gonna buy them from somewhere and that will cost u + limit its use. They are not gonna come cheap.

we have to buy few 5 Gen planes from other countries under make in india , our Engg will learn from them .

No ones gonna allow that unless you buy 100+ and we donot have that kind of money to buy , support and maintain 100+ 5th gen aircrafts.

We can afford money but we can loss time . Dont govt know the condition of Airforce . how will IAF stop Chiniese airforce if they enter into delhi sky how??

Govt I thought cared when they came to power but know I think even they have left it all on IAF who are not even interested in improving the state just for the fact they want to buy foran maal.

SU400 will also take at least 3 year & no one is worrying about national security ??

3 years?? lol

Do we have any think thank or planner for forces or all are buttering in front of govt .

no.....

 

[Pulkit]

If we continue to have current govt who is fully behind DRDO/ADA with heated rod, then I think our organisations would make stuff happen within deadline.

That's a dream and we still keep living it even after seen so many examples...
Let alone the timelines make DRDO or Govt deliver any of the committed products.

 

[Illusive]

If India orders 110 more Rafale you don't have to worry about when. That will hold you over for the next 40 years and you can spend the rest of your money on AMCA and use the offsets of Rafale into its development. You are going to need the production techniques of Rafale if you are going to build a 5th generation fighter that requires extremely tight precision. A Rafale production plant will give you those tools.



I heard what you said, the rest I leave for DRDO to figure out. If they fail the consequences are serious.

As much as I think it's important for us colaborating in your project to secure IAFs FGFA requirements. The reality is we don't have that kind of money to spend on 2 projects. And if we do decide to push for 2, there's going to be a chance of IAF binning AMCA altogether, which would be a big no.

IAF would likely go for more rafales till AMCA matures.

 

[arya]

What russia media is saying

Russia wants to lash India for failing to implement fifth-generation fighter project

Russia should pay less attention to India's interests. Some experts believe that such a policy could serve as a punishment for India, even though the two countries have had positive relationship for many decades. However, everything changes.
It's no secret that India was and still remains one of the main buyers of Russian arms. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, India was the largest arms importer in the world in 2000-2014. The share of Soviet (and Russian) weapons in India's armed forces made up about 75%.
In 2015, Russia's shipments of arms and military equipment to India were evaluated at $4 billion. In 2016, defense contracts were signed totaling about $2 billion. The total portfolio of Indian orders for Russian arms exceeded $4 billion in 2017.
However, India has been trying to buy weapons not only from Russia lately, but also from Israel, European countries and even the USA. Needless to say that Washington would like to end the defence cooperation between Moscow and Delhi.
In late July, Indian Defense Minister Nirmala Sitharaman stated that India was no longer a party to the Russian-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program (FGFA), in which the creation of a fifth-generation fighter was being carried out.
"We informed Russia that India is no longer a participant in this project, but at the same time we told the Russians that they could continue developing it on their own, and we could rejoin them at a later stage," she said.
The Indian Air Force released a special report on the topic: "Having studied all aspects of this project, we came to conclusion that it does not meet our requirements, since the FGFA will not be able to create an aircraft that will be able to demonstrate the performance close to that of American fighters US F-22 and F-35," the report in particular said.
Russia and India signed the agreement on cooperation under the program in 2007. Over the past few years, the Indians have repeatedly expressed dissatisfaction both with the high cost of the program and the way it was being implemented.
According to deputy director of the Russian Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Konstantin Makienko, Russia should now offer Su-35 fighters to Pakistan.
"We do not want to offend the Indians, but I believe that against the backdrop of India's hesitation about the project of the 5th generation fighter, Russia should promote the Su-35 fighter jet in Pakistan. Otherwise, Chinese, South Korean or even Turkish companies will take this market in about five years," Mr. Makienko told the Army Standard publication.
"India has removed all moral obligations from Russia with its behavior, so Russia should get rid of self-restraint in its relations with Pakistan. In the past, we would often decline profitable contracts with Pakistan for the sake of India, but now we should follow our own interests of commercial profit," said Makienko.
The big question is how realistic such a prospect can be. In February of this year, plans were announced to establish a military-technical commission of the two countries. Afterwards, it was reported that Pakistan was going to buy T-90 tanks from Russia. To be more precise, the defense department of Pakistan evinced its interest in those tanks, but this is quite a different bunch of coconuts.
The Pakistani fleet of military aircraft mostly consists of American and Chinese planes. Pakistan's relationship with Washington has been quite complicated, but the country has been conducting successful cooperation with China. Even if Pakistan is interested in buying Su-35 from Russia, does it have the intention and the money to buy them? To crown it all, India will not be happy about such a development.



Sources ::http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2018/08/fifth-general-fighter-project-russia-to.html

 

[ezsasa]

most likely US will pressure us to Buy F 35 as FGFA is cancelled already and i have no hope in AMCA for next 100 years looking at Tejas and Marut.

AMCA will come. few sub technologies are yet to be built and finalised.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

Refer to post #12



The offer of moving an F-16 factory to India is no different than the ones that have been made in Fokker Netherlands, Sabca Belgium, Samsung in Korea, Turkish Aircraft Industries in Turkey and the Greenville production line in the US. They make the frames and integrate the avionics/engines, but those subsystems don't come included with the deal. It is screwdriver work.

France can propose a better deal, we offer offsets like spending $1 billion of Safran's money to develop Kaveri. You won't get that from the US. If India orders more, we will offer more.

US has significant lobbying power in India through Indian companies that make considerable money selling goods and services to US. So I think the order of priority for defense contract is something like US, Russia and then France. At the moment, the current administration in the US does not seem to be too keen on entering defense contract with India. So, I think this is a golden opportunity for France to pitch in.

 

[Armand2REP]

US has significant lobbying power in India through Indian companies that make considerable money selling goods and services to US. So I think the order of priority for defense contract is something like US, Russia and then France. At the moment, the current administration in the US does not seem to be too keen on entering defense contract with India. So, I think this is a golden opportunity for France to pitch in.

Due to the attacks on France by the Congress Party all deals are on hold until after the elections.

 

[arya]

Due to the attacks on France by the Congress Party all deals are on hold until after the elections.

Yes if i am not wrong we took 30 years for artillery guns for army , we wasted 15 years in MMRCA & see our force is with one leg and we think we will win the race .

 

[arya]

Let assume a picture

If Chinese planes enter in our sky they are su 30 mkk, j20 ,j10, Su35 .

how will we counter J20, SU35 planes how ?? ,

 

[WolfPack86]

Let assume a picture

If Chinese planes enter in our sky they are su 30 mkk, j20 ,j10, Su35 .

how will we counter J20, SU35 planes how ?? ,

We can counter them by deploying akash missile, spyder missile, and S-400 missile. and also under development drdo QRSAM missile. We must create missile base in north east at China border. with this net missile centric defence we can blow of any Chinese fighter jet entering Indian air space.

 

[arya]

We can counter them by deploying akash missile, spyder missile, and S-400 missile. and also under development drdo QRSAM missile. We must create missile base in north east at China border. with this net missile centric defence we can blow of any Chinese fighter jet entering Indian air space.

I am talking about present not future ?? what option we can use is there any way we can fight or not . Pls dont talk about future talk about today . Give me answer with logic