F-18 Advanced Super Hornet

Screambowl

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No, its not OK.

You have to calculate life cycle cost also.



For example.................. T-90.
Just like a perfect mess.



Doesn't makes sense.

Huge number of aircrafts, huge manpower, more logistic capability has nothing to do with "more maintenance" .
T-90 is a mess? ....................................................

Life cycle cost is doing absolutely fine.

We should not buy costly arms which require half of the defence budget just for maintenance and without ToT. It's just good for seller not good for buyer.
 

Zebra

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T-90 is a mess? ....................................................

Life cycle cost is doing absolutely fine.
Sir, ask it to KB.

OR

Try it on T-90 thread.

And ask how much they already spend on it just to make it suitable in the summer of Rajasthan.
 

Zebra

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T-90 is a mess? ....................................................

Life cycle cost is doing absolutely fine.

We should not buy costly arms which require half of the defence budget just for maintenance and without ToT. It's just good for seller not good for buyer.
ToT is not free lunch. India paid much more for it.

The red color part suits better for Russian arms.

Check it how much ToT India got for BrahMos.

India just started in making of new aircraft carrier with US. What about that......!
 

Screambowl

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ToT is not free lunch. India paid much more for it.

The red color part suits better for Russian arms.

Check it how much ToT India got for BrahMos.

India just started in making of new aircraft carrier with US. What about that......!
yes because you need to keep them happy to back us in UNSC and counter China. Not because they are giving us free lunch of ToT and without any norms.
 

WolfPack86

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Well if America assure India that they will give full transfer of technology there is no problem in buying. I am very tensed about rafale deal ever since UPA Agusta helicopter scam emerged. I think it is better India to do defence deal with US, Russia and Israel alone not any other European country. Indian Navy hasn't got torpedo deal yet. I lost hope on European Countries regarding defence deal. There is no torpedo for Ins Kalvari submarine thanks to congress.
 

Zebra

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yes because you need to keep them happy to back us in UNSC and counter China. Not because they are giving us free lunch of ToT and without any norms.
Sir, all of a sudden, your tone got changed when I tried to compare BrahMos and new aircraft carrier.
 

Screambowl

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Sir, all of a sudden, your tone got changed when I tried to compare BrahMos and new aircraft carrier.
comparing brahmos which can kill the new aircraft career is not a good comparison. Both are different technologies.

What is so critical about building A/C with americans? The americans know that India has achieved the capability to construct world class vessels. Hence they have not yet closed the deal but negotiation is going on. Wake me up when they start building!!

The technology will get installed not transferred. More over, the EMALS is still under trials. Even the chinese navy and IN are building it separately with GA. Not a big deal
 

Zebra

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comparing brahmos which can kill the new aircraft career is not a good comparison. Both are different technologies.

What is so critical about building A/C with americans?
Sir, actually I was comparing about ToT, as you cried a lot about it.

This is the country who already tried that (in-between 1946 and 1958) , what nuke attacks can do to their carriers.

And they tried it in 'Bikini atoll'.

And I won't buy your idea that a BrahMos can kill US aircraft carrier.

The americans know that India has achieved the capability to construct world class vessels. Hence they have not yet closed the deal but negotiation is going on. Wake me up when they start building!!

The technology will get installed not transferred. More over, the EMALS is still under trials. Even the chinese navy and IN are building it separately with GA. Not a big deal
Again your useless cry for ToT. Which never helped India in past.

And if it is true (the red color part), then also it is better than 'Admiral Gorshkov' deal.

Al least it get fitted in India.
 

BON PLAN

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slowly the world is coming out of 4th and 4.5 gen fighters why forcing India to buy them?

We need to understand that going for these machines will not help us in our own industry. Secondly when India has stuck to French then why to become confused and swing like pendulum?

Better to invest money on industry and jet eingine production. This time with little higher budget and realistic one.
And fastly the world will come back to basics as Stealth is only a question of (small) time to be broken :
Low frequencies radars, Multi static radars, IR .... after tomorrow laser radars....

At the end, without the stealth cover, what will remain of a F35 : a fat bird, low manoeuvrable, with few load capacity, with high IR signature.
In that sense, a J31 seems better armed to embrace the futur.
 

BON PLAN

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Else is tejas is still on papers and will remain on papers even Amerika can supply 200 f18 before even 1 st squadron of tejas [emoji38][emoji38][emoji38][emoji38][emoji38][emoji38]
Yes, it is not a mature product, but for India it is from the hightest importance to be able to developped it's own fighter. And they will do all the necessary to do it. Even with foreign help (Saab? Dassault? ...).
 

Screambowl

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And fastly the world will come back to basics as Stealth is only a question of (small) time to be broken :
Low frequencies radars, Multi static radars, IR .... after tomorrow laser radars....

At the end, without the stealth cover, what will remain of a F35 : a fat bird, low manoeuvrable, with few load capacity, with high IR signature.
In that sense, a J31 seems better armed to embrace the futur.
a jet which can run on bio fuels. Then you will have a new type of propulsion system different from the current one.

India needs heavily to spend money on jet engine technology. Which can be actually realized and upgraded. Americans or any country will never give India jet engine technology. So it is better to stay with french and should not linger on the deal. Enough of time has been wasted.

Rest of the money must be invested for developing jet engines compatible for both bio fuels and crude extracts.
 

Screambowl

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Sir, actually I was comparing about ToT, as you cried a lot about it.

This is the country who already tried that (in-between 1946 and 1958) , what nuke attacks can do to their carriers.

And they tried it in 'Bikini atoll'.

And I won't buy your idea that a BrahMos can kill US aircraft carrier.



Again your useless cry for ToT. Which never helped India in past.

And if it is true (the red color part), then also it is better than 'Admiral Gorshkov' deal.

Al least it get fitted in India.

No country will give you their critical technology. What they will give is something to produce under license with restrictions.

Gorshkov delay and price rise most probably happened due to incapable bureaucracy of India. Navy demands something, defence ministry is against.. files kept aside in dust for months, no proper decision hence price rise by russians.

If you want to dismantle the EMALS system supplied by US you would need permission to do that.

ToT has helped India in space program, and there have been conditions that India will not use this ToT in defence. But any how that's a different segment of debate.
 

smestarz

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a jet which can run on bio fuels. Then you will have a new type of propulsion system different from the current one.

India needs heavily to spend money on jet engine technology. Which can be actually realized and upgraded. Americans or any country will never give India jet engine technology. So it is better to stay with french and should not linger on the deal. Enough of time has been wasted.

Rest of the money must be invested for developing jet engines compatible for both bio fuels and crude extracts.
The markets are slow and the demands are getting lesser as the prices rise, So many of these aircraft companies (and those with allied technologies) will merge or simply be closed down. During WW2 there were more than 10 british companies making varieties of planes, Hawker (makers or Hurricane and Tempest). Supermarine (makers of Spitfire), Bristol (makers of Blenheim, Beaufighter), De Haviland (makers of Mosquito) Gloster (makers of the famous Gladiator and Meteor) Handley Page, Avro, Fairey .. just to name a few, How many of them exist? Many of these companies either shut down or merged to form a stronger comany (Hawker Siddley) and this later became the present giant British Aerospace. (BAe)

Now the markets are going to more difficult,. The engine makers will have orders but not in numbers as before as the planes themselves become expensive and as R&D cost rises, how does one pay for it? Either expensive engine (which in turn increase the cost of plane) and which in return deters the customers or to maybe have a ToT or JV . It is true that engine manufacturing is very intricate business. But how many countries really have the money to invest in developments of engines in future? Investing in engine business is a long term project something like a few decades. For companies like Saturn NPO they will have order from just few customers and both will be Russian (Sukhoi or Mikoyan) and these will be very limited units only with small order book. If the order book has to be made bigger then ToT or JV will be the best alternative. Ultimately by hook or crook, India will get things right about engines, its just matter of experience and slowly we are getting there.

As far France is concerned, they see India on cross roads and they want to try and take max benefit now, as if the French time it wrong, they stand to lose a lot. Rather they could in a way lose the entire share of their pie of Indian defence markets because they tried to be too tough on their conditions and prices.
 

charlie

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Sir, actually I was comparing about ToT, as you cried a lot about it.

This is the country who already tried that (in-between 1946 and 1958) , what nuke attacks can do to their carriers.

And they tried it in 'Bikini atoll'.

And I won't buy your idea that a BrahMos can kill US aircraft carrier.



Again your useless cry for ToT. Which never helped India in past.

And if it is true (the red color part), then also it is better than 'Admiral Gorshkov' deal.

Al least it get fitted in India.
You should stop betting for American contractors, trust me if there was no possibility future contracts with certain client then these contractors would screw those clients like anything, it's just the future contracts that's haunts them.

And if your country is considered in five eyes you are still treated like dirty step child, and Australia also gets the same treatment.

Forget about Five eyes or Nato countries, India is not even considered as Nato allies.

You can pitch for American TOT as much as you like but in reality it something that will never happen unless you let them in with 100% stake.
 

garg_bharat

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@Zebra, hate to blow your bubble but figures are not supportive of French aircraft having cheaper maintenance.

A mirage2000 costs 10 crore per year compared to su 30 costing 4 crore.

Some of it is clearly IAF's attitude where Russian origin inventory gets a lower priority in funds allocation.

But also the fact that French parts are expensive.
 

garg_bharat

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Argueing about what Americans will do or not is meaningless.

The contract is in negotiation stage. Nobody has very good information as to the contours of the contract.

My guess is that airframe and engine will by made in India, as they have to meet the 50% local content.
 

Zebra

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No country will give you their critical technology. What they will give is something to produce under license with restrictions.
Sir, still you cry for ToT. Not me.
It was me who said............ ToT never helped India.
Let me add in something more............ As the amount they paid for it.

Gorshkov delay and price rise most probably happened due to incapable bureaucracy of India. Navy demands something, defence ministry is against.. files kept aside in dust for months, no proper decision hence price rise by russians.
Again, I was talking about US-India aircraft carrier deal / talks are better than Gorshkov deal bcz this aircraft carrier will get made and fitted in India with US help and support.

If you want to dismantle the EMALS system supplied by US you would need permission to do that.
Prove it first.
India use many US manufactured aircrafts now.
Does they take permission every time when ever they dismantle something out of it........!

ToT has helped India in space program, and there have been conditions that India will not use this ToT in defence. But any how that's a different segment of debate.
Bofors gun's ToT.
 

Zebra

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You should stop betting for American contractors, trust me if there was no possibility future contracts with certain client then these contractors would screw those clients like anything, it's just the future contracts that's haunts them.
Sir, every where the same story.
Trust me, I saw few people who cried a lot about the private company who made hull for nuke sub in India.
They said the same check the red color part.

And if your country is considered in five eyes you are still treated like dirty step child, and Australia also gets the same treatment.

Forget about Five eyes or Nato countries, India is not even considered as Nato allies.
And what about your country sir ...........! :biggrin2:
Canada is also one of the five eye country, if I am not wrong.

You can pitch for American TOT as much as you like but in reality it something that will never happen unless you let them in with 100% stake.
How much ToT Russians and French offered to India till today.....?
Very old and simple question.
 
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