Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon

Tactical Frog

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It only goes to show that nationalism and politics are very very precious commodities. They make a 4th or so called 4.5 gen fighter better than a 5th gen fighter...
:nono:My point there is that Rafale is supported by the French military while German military does not seem to support Typhoon any more. That means the French will keep funneling money into Rafale and Germans may NOT do the same with Typhoon.
But looks like we finally found with Sancho a die hard Typhoon defender ! that is great.
 

asianobserve

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:nono:My point there is that Rafale is supported by the French military while German military does not seem to support Typhoon any more. That means the French will keep funneling money into Rafale and Germans may NOT do the same with Typhoon.
But looks like we finally found with Sancho a die hard Typhoon defender ! that is great.
I think politics and national pride will likely win also in Germany. After all it's the politicians who have the power of the purse.

Re upgrades on EF, Germany and partners will continue paying for them as long as the EF is in service.
 

Sancho

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Okay, Airbus Military as successor of EADS Casa is a partner in Neuron program as well. Definitely there is room for possible cooperation between Airbus and Dassault but that is always tough since there is lot of rivalry.
Airbus Spain is part of the development and as I said, I would love to see Airbus Germany being part too, to take a mix of Neuron and upgraded EFs as the Tornado replacement. Sadly that doesn't seem to be under consideration so far and with Dassaults strategic mistakes to team up with BAE, it didn't got easier either.

The fact however remains, that the French government and therfore France is pushing for joint EU military and defence industry and in this case, Airbus is the key and not Dassault! The EU and France can move forward with Airbus and don't need Dassault, but it is in Dassaults interested to play along and put their ego aside for once.
 

Sancho

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Do EuroFighter Typhoon have nuclear delivering capbility and what all upgrades did EuroFighter Typhoon have now since MMRCA. Do EuroFighter Typhoon have now posses air to ground capbility.
Check my posts on page 2, everything you need to know about available and coming capabilities and upgrades.
 

Sancho

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More countries mean more politicians and bureaucrats to lobby - this is not going to be a cheap plane.
That's an assumption, but you don't deal with all partners and usually negotiate only with one lead country. In MMRCA it sadly was Germany, Italy cleared the Kuwait deal, while the Brits were the force behind Saudi, Omani or Qatari deals, just as well as behind the reduced offer for us later.
 

Sancho

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What I meant was like in the case of Canada the political branch of the Government is trying to ram a fighter jet that is not what their own military thinks is best suited for their current and future military needs.

Although it's true that Eurofighter is already in German inventory yet interestingly the Luftwaffe firmly believes that the capabilities that the F-35 brings to their force far outweighs all the advantages it may enjoy if it sticks with the Eurofighter:
First of all, the Luftwaffe didn't made an official statement, it was the air chief that stated "his" preference in an interview.
Secondly, there is no doubt that a stealth fighter has advantages over any 4.5th gen fighter, but it's mainly tactical and not performance or payload based. That's why US or UK aim for interoperability between 5th gen fighters in forward sensor position, with 4.5th gen fighters as following weapon launch platforms, to maximise through advantages of both.
Last but not least, any government has to look at the larger picture of course, which includes political or industrial interests as well. An Air Force, or an Air Chief only looks at their own needs and advantages.
For Germany as a country, upgrading and ordering more EFs now and moving towards the Airbus stealth fighter as a joint EU programme, is of course more beneficial, than buying F35s.
 

Sancho

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But looks like we finally found with Sancho a die hard Typhoon defender ! that is great.
Not exactly, I like all 3 Eurocards for their own reasons and actually prefered Rafale throughout MMRCA as the best fighter for India, till Dassault played us. But I have no bias towards any fighter and therfore can point out advantages and disadvantages, on equal terms.
The EF was badly funded in the past, which delayed upgrades, not to mention that EF partner countries always had a twin type combo included in their plans, contrary to France and Rafale. The situation today however has evidently changed and especially the UK is upgrading EF with very good capabilities, while France is reducing support to a minimum as the F3R shows. That translates into reduction of Rafales lead, in some areas it get even surpassed by other fighters. EF P3E for example beats Rafale clearly in CAS, with the addition of Brimstone now. It offers more variety and load configs of weapons.
With SPEAR 3 and EA capabilities planned by the UK, for the replacement of SEAD Tornados, it also gets far ahead in the SEAD role too, where Rafale is limited to targets around 60Km only, since it only has AASM 250 so far. Indian Rafales might be more comparable, with the right SPICE kits, but we paid a lot to close Rafales capability gaps.
Gripen E comes probably with the most advanced EW of the 3, has SDB and Brazil seems to add MAR1, which means it's the only fighter with a dedicated anti radiation missile so far. Add all this together and you have the perfect replacement for F16CJs in NATO countries.

All 3 a great fighters, to fight any 4.5th gen enemies.
 

Sancho

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German Air Force Typhoons to Assume Attack Role in 2018
By Tamir Eshel - Dec 19, 2017

TaktLwG 31 Boelcke, the Luftwaffe’s first operational Eurofighter wing based at Nörvenich Air Force Base, will also be the first unit to deploy the Typhoon fighter jets in the ground attack role, equipped with Enhanced Paveway II guided weapons. 27 of the unit’s 31 Eurofighters are to be equipped with the weapon. Germany currently operates 125 of the 143 Typhoons ordered from the Eurofighter consortium. Until now those fighters were restricted to the air defense role, which they pursued in combat patrols above the Baltic region.

This new capability will be critical for the German deployment in support of NATO’s Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF). Established in 2014, this is a rapid response task force made of 5,000 troops and backed by support elements from several alliance states, is currently led by the British forces. Germany, the Netherlands, and Norway will assume VJTF responsibility in 2019.

GBU-48 Enhanced Paveway II is a precision guidance kit comprised of a GPS guidance, enabling attack under all weather conditions, and semi-active laser homing, enabling high precision targeting using laser illumination. The kit also includes a wing assembly and control unit strapped on standard 1,000 pound Mk-83 aerial bombs, turning them into precision-guided weapons. Utilizing different activation fuses, the weapon can be activated by impact, airburst or delay facilitating target penetration and reduce collateral damage
http://defense-update.com/20171219_gbu-48.html
 

Sancho

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Dogfight over Berlin: Germany’s Tornado
replacement aspirations

Senior Luftwaffe officials and the German defence ministry appear at loggerheads over whether a European or US combat aircraft should replace the air force’s Tornado, with the former preferring the F-35 Lightning II and the latter in favour of the Typhoon. However, some of them could perhaps be asking the wrong question.

Rather than asking what aircraft type is needed, greater clarity may be achieved by asking what roles the aircraft will be required to carry out. In Luftwaffe service, the Tornado provides the ability to deliver both conventional and nuclear payloads. The latter role is part of NATO’s dual-capable aircraft capability, with the Tornado equipped to carry the B61 gravity bomb. If Germany intends to continue to fulfil this mission, whichever type is selected to replace the Tornado will also need to be able to meet this role.

The other combat aircraft in the Luftwaffe’s fleet, the Eurofighter Typhoon, is presently not ‘wired’ to carry nuclear weapons. There was some consideration given to this in the early days of the development programme, but was not pursued. Introducing a nuclear-assurance and -release system for Typhoon is possible, but at a cost. European industrialists suggest prices ranging from €300–500 million, while there is the likelihood that the US would require very detailed access to the aircraft’s design and systems. Furthermore, officials estimate that the necessary certification process would take upwards of seven years. Even if certification were to start straightaway, this makes it challenging to meet the Luftwaffe’s timeline, since it wants to begin replacing its Tornados in 2025, with the fleet to be fully withdrawn likely by 2030.

Germany’s dual-capable Tornado aircraft are part of NATO’s nuclear-deterrence strategy; for this to be effective, it also has to be credible. If the weapon to be delivered remains a nuclear free-fall bomb, the challenge of hitting a target through airspace defended by capable combat aircraft and advanced surface-to-air missiles is considerable. In other words, where long-range stand-off strike is not an option, a low-observable combat aircraft offers the best chance of at least reaching the target.

However, one possible solution could be that the nuclear and conventional roles now both met by the Tornado could be split between a relatively small F-35 fleet and a larger Typhoon fleet, thereby reconciling Luftwaffe and German defence-ministry aspirations. The former aircraft would meet the nuclear-delivery requirement with the B61-12 bomb and provide a low-observable platform capable of conventional weapons delivery, while a proportion of the air-to-surface missions now addressed by the Tornado could be migrated to the Typhoon.

Nevertheless, the Luftwaffe is presently not only working on how to replace the Tornado, but in the longer term, also the Typhoon. Under its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) work, it had initially looked to introduce a new combat aircraft into service from 2035, with the emphasis on the air-to-surface role, as a Tornado replacement. As thinking has developed during the course of 2017, and the F-35 has found increasing favour, Germany’s longer-term combat-aircraft requirement has placed greater emphasis on the air-to-air role for the Typhoon’s successor. The notional entry into service date has also moved to 2045.

The FCAS study work is now being carried out in collaboration with France. Moving back the entry into service date aligns more closely with France’s requirement for a Rafale successor, while also providing a more palatable gap between the cost of the possible introduction of the F-35 and the acquisition of a new fighter aircraft.
http://www.iiss.org/en/militarybala...-edcc/december-d13d/dogfight-over-berlin-ecf0
 

asianobserve

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The first moment I read the news article about the leaked letter of German MOD Deptuy Defence Minister insisting to a German MP that it is EF that they should get to replace their retiring Tornadoes, in contradiction of the Chief of the Luftwaffe's own pronouncement favoring 5th Gen F-35, I know right away that the politicians and the military guys in Germany are at loggerheads between F-35 and EF. Germany's professional military wants the F-35 while Germany's professional politicians want the EF.

With the introduction of 5th gen fighters from Russia, China and other countries, the Luftwaffe rightly do not want to be handicapped in any future air conflict. I guess they are not so optimistic about a European 5th gen fighter.
 
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Sancho

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The first moment I read the news article about the leaked letter of German MOD Deptuy Defence Minister
There was no leaked letter, but a written reply to a member of the parliament, who asked about the F35 statement. And as said before, it's not even an official statement by the Air Force, but the personal opinion of the chief, which as shown in the article, has mainly to do with the nuclear role of the Tornado. If Germany wants to remain with that capability, only a US platform would be a solution in the short to medium term, because the EF needs to be upgraded and certified and the Airbus stealth fighter is not planned as a Tornado replacement and comes only 20 years later.
 
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Armand2REP

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There was no leaked letter, but a written reply to a member of the parliament, who asked about the F35 statement. And as said before, it's not even an official statement by the Air Force, but the personal opinion of the chief, which as shown in the article, has mainly to do with the nuclear role of the Tornado. If Germany wants to remain with that capability, only a US platform would be a solution in the short to medium term, because the EF needs to be upgraded and certified and the Airbus stealth fighter is not planned as a Tornado replacement and comes only 20 years later.

The Tornado replacement needs to begin in 2025 to be completed by 2030. Germany couldn't even maintain six Tornados in Jordan and had to reduce the number to four. It is rather obvious Germany has a requirement for a stealth fighter and the F-35 is the only one that meets the time frame.
 

asianobserve

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There was no leaked letter, but a written reply to a member of the parliament, who asked about the F35 statement. And as said before, it's not even an official statement by the Air Force, but the personal opinion of the chief, which as shown in the article, has mainly to do with the nuclear role of the Tornado. If Germany wants to remain with that capability, only a US platform would be a solution in the short to medium term, because the EF needs to be upgraded and certified and the Airbus stealth fighter is not planned as a Tornado replacement and comes only 20 years later.
The Luftwaffe Chief singled out the F35 not only on account of its ability to carry B61 but also due to its 5th gen features. In other words they want 5th gen capabilities.
 

Sancho

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The Tornado replacement needs to begin in 2025 to be completed by 2030. Germany couldn't even maintain six Tornados in Jordan and had to reduce the number to four. It is rather obvious Germany has a requirement for a stealth fighter and the F-35 is the only one that meets the time frame.
Right, they had availability issues for Tornado, that's why only a stealth fighter can replace it. :confused1:

The Luftwaffe Chief singled out the F35 not only on account of its ability to carry B61 but also due to its 5th gen features. In other words they want 5th gen capabilities.
Of course he singled out the F35, when you have to take a US fighter, you obviously want their best one as an Air Chief. But then again, the same Air Chief has already planned upgrades for the EF, to take over roles of the Tornado, like CAS with GBU48, Brimstone and most likely LJDAM, or reconnaissance, by taking over Tornados RecceLite pods. So the question is, what are the roles left, that need to be taken over and does it require a 2nd fighter type?

Cruise missile strike - EF already made flight tests with Taurus, but it needs CFTs for sufficient range.

SEAD - with Brimstone already planned,
SPEAR would be a logical addition

Nuclear strike - only possible with costly upgrades.

With the UK aiming on CFT and SEAD upgrades for the EF as well, it's obvious that Germany can simply team up with them an take over 90% of the Tornado roles.

=> If they want to maintain the nuclear role, adding some F35 is the prime option, but not as a general Tornado replacement.
 

Armand2REP

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Right, they had availability issues for Tornado, that's why only a stealth fighter can replace it. :confused1:
In the 21st century, yes only a stealth replacement would make any sense when a considerable portion of the procurement budget would be dedicated to the task. France will be using the nEUROn UCAV until the 6th generation is complete.
 

WolfPack86

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Qatar Rafales is cheaper than Indian Rafales why is that while India is buying 36 Rafales for 9 billion dollar while Qatar is buying for 7 billion. Mr Sancho.
 

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