Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon

[Sancho]

MBB (Airbus Germany) Mako/Heat advanced trainer

MBB (Airbus Germany) Barracuda UAV

Talarion MALE UAV, initially by Airbus Germany and Spain, later joined by France as well

Airbus FCAS design, initially by Airbus Germany and Spain, now joined by France

(Tailless delta wing design, with movable lerx as canard replacement)


Airbus has no design experience? :biggrin2:

 

[Steven Rogers]

MBB (Airbus Germany) Mako/Heat advanced trainer

MBB (Airbus Germany) Barracuda UAV

Talarion MALE UAV, initially by Airbus Germany and Spain, later joined by France as well

Airbus FCAS design, initially by Airbus Germany and Spain, now joined by France

(Tailless delta wing design, with movable lerx as canard replacement)


Airbus has no design experience? :biggrin2:

LEVCON replacing the LERX and Canards as the control surface .

 

[Sancho]

LEVCON replacing the LERX and Canards as the control surface .

Yes, depending on how you call it. We called it Levcon on NLCA, at Pak Fa it was movable Lerx and who knows how Airbus will call it eventually. Either way, it's evidently an evolution in MBB / Airbus designs.

 

[Tactical Frog]

MBB (Airbus Germany) Mako/Heat advanced trainer

MBB (Airbus Germany) Barracuda UAV

Talarion MALE UAV, initially by Airbus Germany and Spain, later joined by France as well

Airbus FCAS design, initially by Airbus Germany and Spain, now joined by France

(Tailless delta wing design, with movable lerx as canard replacement)


Airbus has no design experience? :biggrin2:

All right, all right, very nice demonstrators, drones, trainers, thank you. Still , wake me up when Airbus comes out with something as mind blowing as Neuron.

 

[Armand2REP]

MBB (Airbus Germany) Mako/Heat advanced trainer

MBB (Airbus Germany) Barracuda UAV

Talarion MALE UAV, initially by Airbus Germany and Spain, later joined by France as well

Airbus FCAS design, initially by Airbus Germany and Spain, now joined by France

(Tailless delta wing design, with movable lerx as canard replacement)


Airbus has no design experience? :biggrin2:

What do a bunch of cancelled German projects have to do with Eurofighter?

 

[Armand2REP]

And that's the ego problem we see and which kept hurting the Rafale as well. One can only hope that they learned their lessons, although I put more hope on president Macron and the French part of Airbus. Dassault is meaningless for the EU, next to Airbus and Saab. They neither are selling their fighters in that market, nor have many interesting defence products either. If they are smart, they join the project with less ego and more teamplay, otherwise they should focus on business jets, which is not working that well either as the latest news suggests.

The problem lies with Germany thinking they are still in the aircraft design business. Every project they push out goes nowhere. Dassault is lead on the nEUROn project which is the future UCAV of the EU, the Rafale has given France 3X more workshare than if it had it stayed in the Eurofighter programme that is divided by four countries and provides autonomy of the MIC to issue G2G deals.

 

[Sancho]

All right, all right, very nice demonstrators, drones, trainers, thank you. Still , wake me up when Airbus comes out with something as mind blowing as Neuron.

Airbus is development partner in the Neuron project and when you can develop different drone designs as shown, a similar UCAV is not really the issue. More demanding will be the plan of an unmanned version of the stealth fighter, because it will keep the flight performance, radar and EW requirements of the base version. But I do wished that Neuron would play a role in the Tornado and Hornet replacements though, but teaming up with BAE was a strategically bad move of Dassault.

 

[Sancho]

The problem lies with Germany thinking they are still in the aircraft design business. Every project they push out goes nowhere. Dassault is lead on the nEUROn project which is the future UCAV of the EU,

As proven they are and have designed more aircrafts between EF and today, than Dassault did between Rafale and today. Airbus beat Dassault/BAE in the MALE drone programme with Airbus France being a partner in it. Dassault teamed up with BAE for a UCAV development and now the French president is supporting the Airbus FCAS project (again most likely with Airbus France in it), so which one is the future for the EU?

Dassault was important for the aviation industry of France, but not for the EU and French government has understood that the future of the EU lies in joint military and defence industries, which is why the coops with Germany in the aviation field and Italy in the naval field are progressing. So either Dassault plays along and remains a part of EU aviation, or they don't, but Airbus is the key for the EU, with Saab in 2nd place.

 

[Armand2REP]

As proven they are and have designed more aircrafts between EF and today, than Dassault did between Rafale and today. Airbus beat Dassault/BAE in the MALE drone programme with Airbus France being a partner in it. Dassault teamed up with BAE for a UCAV development and now the French president is supporting the Airbus FCAS project (again most likely with Airbus France in it), so which one is the future for the EU?

Dassault was important for the aviation industry of France, but not for the EU and French government has understood that the future of the EU lies in joint military and defence industries, which is why the coops with Germany in the aviation field and Italy in the naval field are progressing. So either Dassault plays along and remains a part of EU aviation, or they don't, but Airbus is the key for the EU, with Saab in 2nd place.

France did not go with the Airbus drone, we bought the Sagem Patroller MALE and ordered a fourth batch of Reapers to replace Harfang. The future UCAV is nEUROn.

 

[Sancho]

 

[Sancho]

France did not go with the Airbus drone

France is part of the joint drone programme and even Dassault joint Airbus after their bid with BAE lost out. Don't live in denial, Dassault needs the EU and Airbus to survive in defence, that's why it would be better for Dassault to join the Airbus fighter project too.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Airbus is development partner in the Neuron project and when you can develop different drone designs as shown, a similar UCAV is not really the issue. More demanding will be the plan of an unmanned version of the stealth fighter, because it will keep the flight performance, radar and EW requirements of the base version. But I do wished that Neuron would play a role in the Tornado and Hornet replacements though, but teaming up with BAE was a strategically bad move of Dassault.

Okay, Airbus Military as successor of EADS Casa is a partner in Neuron program as well. Definitely there is room for possible cooperation between Airbus and Dassault but that is always tough since there is lot of rivalry.

Teaming with BAE for a future UCAV ( known as FCAS , Future Combat Air System) was not Dassault’s idea but the result of the decision of french and British govs to work together under the Lancaster House agreement framework. Was it a sound idea ? Probably not ... time will tell

 

[Tactical Frog]

France is part of the joint drone programme and even Dassault joint Airbus after their bid with BAE lost out. Don't live in denial, Dassault needs the EU and Airbus to survive in defence, that's why it would be better for Dassault to join the Airbus fighter project too.

Getting Airbus and Dassault engineers to work together seem to be like locking cats and dogs in the same room

We need to move that discussion about future european fighters and drones in some other thread.

 

[Armand2REP]

France is part of the joint drone programme and even Dassault joint Airbus after their bid with BAE lost out. Don't live in denial, Dassault needs the EU and Airbus to survive in defence, that's why it would be better for Dassault to join the Airbus fighter project too.

There is no drone, it is a definition study. If the governments don't pick it up it will go the way of every other Airbus UAV initiative Barracuda and Talarion. We have the Patroller/Reaper combo for the next 20 years, the Airbus plan is stillborn as even the Italians have their own MALE. It is only the Germans who don't have one.

 

[WolfPack86]

Do EuroFighter Typhoon have nuclear delivering capbility and what all upgrades did EuroFighter Typhoon have now since MMRCA. Do EuroFighter Typhoon have now posses air to ground capbility.

 

[Kay]

The situation actually couldn't be more different. The EF were mainly developed by the former Tornado partners, UK, Italy and Germany, with Spain later joining. So France had to deal with already existing partnerships, besides different requirements (+ with their and the British ego).
The new fighter programme is pushed by Airbus Germany and Airbus Spain, which already are partners of France and with president Macron's commitment to the project, at least Airbus France will take part for sure. These 3 nations and Airbus as the prime company are also leading the way for the EU military and aviation industry, with joint tactical transport and joint tanker fleets already getting organised and ordered. They also teamed up for the EU MALE drone project and now are planing the future fighter too. The only question is, which countries and industrial partners will join? Dassault is likely, but not important for the EU. Sweden and Saab would have far more impact, just as Italy with Leonardo. BAE is already begging to be a part of it, because they know what potential a EU fighter has, compared to 3 Eurocanards that are competing each other.

But the biggest problem remains to be operational requirements. The EF was aimed on high performance, Rafale on an omni role design with a naval version, while Gripen was meant on cost-effective multi role capability. Combining those in a single fighter, that also has stealth as a priority, will be tricky, although Airbus and Saab show similar aims.

More countries mean more politicians and bureaucrats to lobby - this is not going to be a cheap plane.

 

[asianobserve]

It's not quite like that, since Canada wants to replace the older fighters with a single type. Germany on the other hand will operate EF's anyway, now the question is, do they need a 2nd platform, or can the EF simply take over the roles of the Tornados. The answer is, except for the nuclear delivery role, it can do it all with the necessary upgrades. Apart of that, German government is already committing themselves into the future European fighter development, which makes a 2nd fighter type now, questionable too, especially if it's a stealth fighter as well.

What I meant was like in the case of Canada the political branch of the Government is trying to ram a fighter jet that is not what their own military thinks is best suited for their current and future military needs.

Although it's true that Eurofighter is already in German inventory yet interestingly the Luftwaffe firmly believes that the capabilities that the F-35 brings to their force far outweighs all the advantages it may enjoy if it sticks with the Eurofighter:

“The indicated view of the [chief] of the air force that the F-35 Lightning II is an especially suitable successor to the Tornado system is not the position of the federal government,” Deputy Defence Minister Ralf Brauksiepe was quoted by Reuters as saying in the letter.

The general noted that the Tornado’s successor must have the full spectrum of offensive counter air and air interdiction; suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD); close air support (CAS); tactical reconnaissance; electronic warfare (EW); and the nuclear deterrent mission. It must also meet future threats and be survivable in a contested environment through the employment of low observability (stealth) technologies, as well as standoff sensors and weapons. “The Luftwaffe considers the F-35’s capability as the benchmark for the selection process for the Tornado replacement, and I think I have expressed myself clearly enough as to what the favourite of the air force is,” he said.

In fact, I can see that there is a very serious rift between the Luftwaffe and the German MOD on how to proceed with its Tornado replacement. It would appear to me that the very public nature with which the Chief of the Luftwaffe has singled out the F-35 (note that there is no other fighter that fits the Luftwaffe's description of its ideal Tornado replacement than the F-35) as its aircraft of choice is a calculated move to preempt the German MOD on the matter. After all of all people the Chief of the Luftwaffe should know that the German MOD will want to go with the Eurofighter by default, on account of so many non-military considerations.

 

[Tactical Frog]

What I meant was like in the case of Canada the political branch of the Government is trying to ram a fighter jet that is not what their own military thinks is best suited for their current and future military needs.

Although it's true that Eurofighter is already in German inventory yet interestingly the Luftwaffe firmly believes that the capabilities that the F-35 brings to their force far outweighs all the advantages it may enjoy if it sticks with the Eurofighter:





In fact, I can see that there is a very serious rift between the Luftwaffe and the German MOD on how to proceed with its Tornado replacement. It would appear to me that the very public nature with which the Chief of the Luftwaffe has singled out the F-35 (note that there is no other fighter that fits the Luftwaffe's description of its ideal Tornado replacement than the F-35) as its aircraft of choice is a calculated move to preempt the German MOD on the matter. After all of all people the Chief of the Luftwaffe should know that the German MOD will want to go with the Eurofighter by default, on account of so many non-military considerations.

Yeah. Whatever good Captor E and other Typhoon upgrades are, the Luftwaffe’s head prefers F-35 ! The Luftwaffe wants American planes, the Armee de l’Air wants better Rafale.

 

[Armand2REP]

Do EuroFighter Typhoon have nuclear delivering capbility

Any aircraft has the capability if it has the adapted pylon to carry them. They run a temp control system and enough power to load up the capacitors. For fail safe it needs to be a two seat aircraft with a pair of launch codes. EMP hardening is required for airburst. None of the nations using Eurofighter have the required pylons to arm a nuclear weapon and the two seater is only used for training so I would say no, it does not have nuclear delivery capability. If you wanted to convert the two seater it possibly could.

 

[asianobserve]

Yeah. Whatever good Captor E and other Typhoon upgrades are, the Luftwaffe’s head prefers F-35 ! The Luftwaffe wants American planes, the Armee de l’Air wants better Rafale.

It only goes to show that nationalism and politics are very very precious commodities. They make a 4th or so called 4.5 gen fighter better than a 5th gen fighter...