Economics: Why are mainstream views different from reality?

panduranghari

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,245
Hi SGU,

I have started another thread as we were digressing from the main topic.

So now I know the reason for your ignorance of basic facts. Read some mainstream stuff as well and not just the conspiracy theories. Mainstream media does not constitute mainstream views. They have got it all wrong!!
Check out- The armchair economist by Steve Landsburg. I hope you would like it and would appreciate some of his views.
Could you please inform me what constitutes conspiracy theories? Does a theory not backed by CNBC or Wall Street Journal come under the general remit of conspiracy theory? Also when can a theory be called conspiracy theory?

What are your opinions on the mainstream views? If mainstream media does not constitute mainstream views, then what does?

I shall ask questions as we get the conversation going.
 

trackwhack

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2011
Messages
3,757
Likes
2,590
^^ Good luck sir. All the budding Amartya Sens are gonna come knocking.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,114
Likes
7,761
Thanks for starting the thread.

Some quick points to note:
1. We usually mix finance and economics here. These are two different things.
2. Mainstream media is pretty much ignorant when it comes to reporting economics except when articles are written by some of the active academics.
3. I remember you pointing me to alternative data sources and rejecting the WB data as something that is cooked up. And then the articles you point to sometimes constitute are no more than conspiracy theories. Although, using the word conspiracy is somewhat harsh on my part.

I will give you one example on mainstream view(generally propelled by ignorant journalists):
Here, Trackwhack is blowing the financial debt of UK out of proportion. Let me tell how(I am using bank as a generalized term for financial intermediaries):
1. Bank is intermediary and do not eat money. They borrow from people/firms and lend it to people/firms.
2. To avoid double counting financial debt do not include lending to households and non-financial institutes.
3. So, effectively banks are always in financial debt due to this counting. Else there is no reason for a bank to be in debt.
4. More debt means more business.
5. It does not reflect the fact who are the borrowers from UK institutions. They borrow and lend all across the world, but financial debt is counted on part of UK.
6. So, debt becomes a problem only when it is toxic or borrowers are unable to return back to banks. Else, there is no reason to worry about financial debt as long as it is not toxic.
But media will blow it out of proportion and then it spreads like fire.

Most active academicians and policy analysts write blogs. A good combination of these constitutes a balanced mainstream view.

Hope I explained my point. Will write more as we further discuss the issues.
 

panduranghari

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,245
Thanks for starting the thread.
You are welcome.

Some quick points to note:
1. We usually mix finance and economics here. These are two different things.
True. Unfortunately, the economists are becoming more and more intertwined with the current financial arrangement. The economists have learnt teaching alone is not going to make money. Hence they are now advising most hedge funds, mutual funds. The financial models on which the insurance industry, hedge fund industry works is created by these economists. I am sure you are aware of this.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia;

The financial crisis was not widely predicted by mainstream economists, who instead spoke of the Great Moderation. A number of heterodox economists predicted the crisis, with varying arguments. Dirk Bezemer in his research[145] credits (with supporting argument and estimates of timing) 12 economists with predicting the crisis: Dean Baker (US), Wynne Godley (UK), Fred Harrison (UK), Michael Hudson (US), Eric Janszen (US), Steve Keen (Australia), Jakob Brøchner Madsen & Jens Kjaer Sørensen (Denmark), Kurt Richebächer (US), Nouriel Roubini (US), Peter Schiff (US), and Robert Shiller (US). Examples of other experts who gave indications of a financial crisis have also been given.[146][147][148] Not surprisingly, the Austrian economic school regarded the crisis as a vindication and classic example of a predictable credit-fueled bubble that could not forestall the disregarded but inevitable effect of an artificial, manufactured laxity in monetary supply,[149] a perspective that even former Fed Chair Alan Greenspan in Congressional testimony confessed himself forced to return to.[150]

A cover story in BusinessWeek magazine claims that economists mostly failed to predict the worst international economic crisis since the Great Depression of 1930s.[151] The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania's online business journal examines why economists failed to predict a major global financial crisis.[152] Popular articles published in the mass media have led the general public to believe that the majority of economists have failed in their obligation to predict the financial crisis. For example, an article in the New York Times informs that economist Nouriel Roubini warned of such crisis as early as September 2006, and the article goes on to state that the profession of economics is bad at predicting recessions.[153] According to The Guardian, Roubini was ridiculed for predicting a collapse of the housing market and worldwide recession, while The New York Times labelled him "Dr. Doom".[154]

Within mainstream financial economics, most believe that financial crises are simply unpredictable,[155] following Eugene Fama's efficient-market hypothesis and the related random-walk hypothesis, which state respectively that markets contain all information about possible future movements, and that the movement of financial prices are random and unpredictable.

Lebanese-American trader and financial risk engineer Nassim Nicholas Taleb, author of the 2007 book The Black Swan, spent years warning against the breakdown of the banking system in particular and the economy in general owing to their use of bad risk models and reliance on forecasting, and their reliance on bad models, and framed the problem as part of "robustness and fragility".[156][157] He also took action against the establishment view by making a big financial bet on banking stocks and making a fortune from the crisis ("They didn't listen, so I took their money").[158] According to David Brooks from the New York Times, "Taleb not only has an explanation for what's happening, he saw it coming."[159]
2. Mainstream media is pretty much ignorant when it comes to reporting economics except when articles are written by some of the active academics.
And here is the crux. The Austrian school of economics was ridiculed from 2003 onwards until the crisis as they predicted the fall of the current economic system;


3. I remember you pointing me to alternative data sources and rejecting the WB data as something that is cooked up. And then the articles you point to sometimes constitute are no more than conspiracy theories. Although, using the word conspiracy is somewhat harsh on my part.
As you can see from the earlier clip, the main stream media who reports finance is the source of all this rubbish we hear. The World Bank and IMF is the creation of west to control resources of the rest.

You can read about it in a book called ' confessions of an economic hit man'

http://www.economichitman.com/pix/cehmexcerpt.pdf

That is what we EHMs do best: we build a global empire. We are an elite group of men and women who utilize international financial organizations to foment conditions that make other nations subservient to the corporatocracy running our biggest corporations, our government, and our banks. Like our counterparts in the Mafia, EHMs provide favors. These take the form of loans to develop infrastructure —electric generating plants, highways, ports, airports, or industrial parks. A condition of such loans is that engineering and construction companies from our own country must build all these projects. In essence, most of the money never leaves the United States; it is simply transferred from banking offices in Washington to engineering offices in New York, Houston, or San Francisco.

Despite the fact that the money is returned almost immediately to corporations that are members of the corporatocracy (the creditor), the recipient country is required to pay it all back, principal plus interest. If an EHM is completely successful, the loans are so large that the debtor is forced to default on its payments after a few years. When this happens, then like the Mafia we demand our pound of flesh. This often includes one or more of the following: control over United Nations votes, the installation of military bases, or access to precious resources such as oil or the Panama Canal. Of course, the debtor still owes us the money—and another country is added to our global empire.

I will give you one example on mainstream view(generally propelled by ignorant journalists):
Here, Trackwhack is blowing the financial debt of UK out of proportion. Let me tell how(I am using bank as a generalized term for financial intermediaries):
1. Bank is intermediary and do not eat money. They borrow from people/firms and lend it to people/firms.
Partially correct. Banks do not borrow from people. They borrow from the central bank or from another bank and lend to people.

Fractional-reserve banking is a form of banking where banks maintain reserves (of cash and coin or deposits at the central bank) that are only a fraction of the customer's deposits. Funds deposited into a bank are mostly lent out, and a bank keeps only a fraction (called the reserve ratio) of the quantity of deposits as reserves. Some of the funds lent out are subsequently deposited with another bank, increasing deposits at that second bank and allowing further lending. As most bank deposits are treated as money in their own right, fractional reserve banking increases the money supply, and banks are said to create money. Due to the prevalence of fractional reserve banking, the broad money supply of most countries is a multiple larger than the amount of base money created by the country's central bank. That multiple (called the money multiplier) is determined by the reserve requirement or other financial ratio requirements imposed by financial regulators, and by the excess reserves kept by commercial banks.[1][2]

Central banks generally mandate reserve requirements that require banks to keep a minimum fraction of their demand deposits as cash reserves. This both limits the amount of money creation that occurs in the commercial banking system,[2] and ensures that banks have enough ready cash to meet normal demand for withdrawals. Problems can arise, however, when depositors seek withdrawal of a large proportion of deposits at the same time; this can cause a bank run or, when problems are extreme and widespread, a systemic crisis. To mitigate this risk, the governments of most countries (usually acting through the central bank) regulate and oversee commercial banks, provide deposit insurance and act as lender of last resort to commercial banks.

Fractional-reserve banking is the most common form of banking and is practiced in almost all countries. Although Islamic banking prohibits the making of profit from interest on debt, a form of fractional-reserve banking is still evident in most Islamic countries.

2. To avoid double counting financial debt do not include lending to households and non-financial institutes.
So who counts the debt? If you are a rich man, you park your 100 million dollars in your bank. Just assume you are the only creditor to the bank. Your bank effectively owes you 100 million dollrs. They will lend me 20 million as I want to start a business. They will lend to 50 others the 80 million left but the lending is in excess of 80 million. Thats how they will make money. Everyone sells debt to the next buyer. Everyone feels they do not own the debt anymore. What we are seeing in Greece is the symptom of the problem. The problem is debt was sold as a saving. Its antithetical both both to last until someone calls the bluff.

Here is a video about the same;


3. So, effectively banks are always in financial debt due to this counting. Else there is no reason for a bank to be in debt.
Agreed. And hence we can see inspite of constant request from Obama the big banks are not lending. They do not want to be short of cash like Lehman Bros was in 2008. The way I see it is such, the real austerity demanded from USA and UK will never happen. They are blaming poor old Greece. The simple difference is Greece cannot print Euros as only ECB is allowed to print Euros. US Federal Reserve is printing to bail out the US govt. Just see whats happening in California and many other US states. Except Texas most of US states are broke. And neither can these states print, they have to rely on handouts from Washington. And these states do not own any gold. Greece owns at least some gold.

Here is what my friend writes on his blog;

FOFOA: Of Currency Wars

"My friend, debt is the very essence of fiat. As debt defaults, fiat is destroyed."

What is the problem with Greece and the other so-called PIIGS? Is it profligate public spending/financing, the credit that enabled it, the system that helped hide it, and the mountain of unserviceable debt that resulted?

The difference between the dollar based debt system ($IMFS) and Freegold is that the former encourages and enables the above while the latter never lets it get this far along so as to become a systemic risk. It's called 'balance as you go', as opposed to enabling the growth of an imbalance so large that it finally collapses back into balance.

I cannot give you the blow by blow that you ask for, but I can still show you what must happen. And it is helpful in this regard to work backward from the future until we come to two choices that will both result in the same end.

First is that we are facing a systemic shift from the $IMFS to Freegold. Don't forget that the actual value of an individual transactional currency unit (even a euro) doesn't really matter in the context of its primary function. So even though one currency is built for the new, emergent system, I would still not want to be holding that currency through the transition.

Second is that Greece's debt cannot be paid back in real terms, and neither can the aggregate planetary debt. It doesn't really matter if it is not paid back through default (bankruptcy) or through devaluation of the currency... it will not be paid back in real terms. But devaluation of the currency is certainly the more politically acceptable route.

Third is that all this planetary debt (including Greece's) is a function of the $IMFS. The eurosystem, even though it was built to thrive under Freegold, is still supporting the $IMFS. The action to look for is the passive action of withdrawal of support.

The way the $IMFS works is that, at the very end, it either bails you out or kills you dead, depending on who your friends are. Freegold spanks you along the way with a little pain here and there until you get your finances back in order.

I expect Greece and the PIIGS to get spanked hard at the beginning of the new system. I do not expect Greece to leave the euro, but it will certainly have to get its public finances in order.

You see, the shift is going to be swift and it will reveal a change in perception that is almost impossible to imagine right now. Physical gold is going to rise so high, so fast that it will become known as the most prized treasure a collective state can hold. And immediately upon this recognition Greece will have to either part with or encumber its most prized "monetary" treasure while it restructures its newly devalued debt and its economy.

No longer will unlimited Ponzi finance be an option for ANYONE'S financial difficulties. But at the same time, the worst of the financial predicaments will have been significantly devalued, as they were bad bets by creditors from the start.

This is why it is so important to understand the implications of Freegold now, because the cascade of events once "the plug is pulled" will be mind-numbing. The ability to understand events as they unfold will be quite rare (and quite valuable) as we are in uncharted waters.

Does this explanation help you find the answers to your questions?

Sincerely,
FOFOA
4. More debt means more business.
Agreed.

5. It does not reflect the fact who are the borrowers from UK institutions. They borrow and lend all across the world, but financial debt is counted on part of UK.

The financial debt should never have become a part of UK national debt. It however did because the government bailed out the banks thus took on the debt themselves. Thus shooting themselves and their country in their feet.

6. So, debt becomes a problem only when it is toxic or borrowers are unable to return back to banks. Else, there is no reason to worry about financial debt as long as it is not toxic.
But media will blow it out of proportion and then it spreads like fire.

Most active academicians and policy analysts write blogs. A good combination of these constitutes a balanced mainstream view.
The media you describe is the same who obfuscates data. If you honestly believe in the data published by government which indicates the various indices, you are mistaken and you have been taken for a ride. In the UK, the Consumer Price Inflation (CPI) is calculated by including 50 different things which constitute the things consumers need on a regular basis. The problem is the people who calculate the inflation chop and change things which fit into the basket for calculation. If eggs, milk, apples, petrol, tee shirt, bananas, paper constitute the basket and they use the prices of these goods to calculate the CPI, if apples get expensive but if pears have got cheaper - they will substitute apples for pears. Thus they give us a data which claims to be accurate, but it is actually doctored to make them look good. They have been in this business for a long time.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

panduranghari

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,245
There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.

By Ludwig von Mises

Ludwig von Mises Institute : The Austrian School Is Advancing Liberty
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,114
Likes
7,761
Sorry, for the late reply. I was away from my computer for some time.

As I expected, you are smoking Austrian economics. Will give you a detailed critique of their basic premises soon after I watch the videos that you have posted. But would make some quick comments from what I read above.

Its good that you agree with the financial accounting thing and that the debt shows on part of the financial institutions. In case of UK, the bailout shifted some of the financial debt to govt. debt and the figure that you see now for financial debt is the debt on financial institutions. This debt is backed by some form of collateral, and has the minimum exposure to Greece among the European banks. Any form of debt can turn out to be toxic in the future but that does not mean you stop lending. But it is good that you agree here on the financial accounting part. And banks borrow from everyone and not just in between themselves or central banks(how can you forget the FDs people have in India and their counterparts elsewhere).

On the CPI part, no economist believe one or the other measure completely captures inflation. All nations use variety of indicators for measuring inflation and the basket used is reported all the time. But, the basket does not change that frequently as pointed by you and it is reported. And not to forget the fact that there are families which report their consumption, so if prices of apples increase and families replace it with pear it would be reflected in the basket. So, that does not mean inflation has increased if families replace more or less the goods in the same category. So, inflation is a subjective statistic and people use it with caution depending what their point of interest is. Similar is the case for other indicators like Producer Price Index, GDP deflator, PPP calculations etc. People use them because these indicators are better than other naive calculations. The individual economists on the other hand try to bust govt. interpretations rather than support them. And the world is not controlled by PRC, so it is almost impossible to fudge the data. Economists are hawkish about pulling govt. legs as their is no one grand theory that unites all economists for a single cause. Statistics have to be taken with a pinch of salt to understand their implications, which economists understand and layman does not. For eg. You pay your maid 50k a year, but if she marries you then you pay nothing, although she might still do the same work for you. The GDP in the later case, given as we measure it today will fall by 50k. So, there are always problems in measurement of things and one has to keep eyes open for the pitfalls rather than look for conspiracies.

On the money supply front, all I can tell you right now is that there is no reason to keep the amount of money in the economy hostage to the amount of amount of gold in the central bank's vault. This is a wider subject and would share the appropriate links with you soon.
 
Last edited:

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,114
Likes
7,761
You have claimed -- This debt is backed by some form of collateral---

Could you please tell me what collateral?
When you go and buy your car, they do check your salary statements. But if you buy a house, the house acts as a collateral.

Similarly when loans are given to start-ups sometimes they look for viability of the idea other times they ask for share of the firms. If an established firms wants to expand, the collateral is the firm itself. Hope you have heard the concept of leverage that banks use in giving the loans. Given the size of London financial market, there must be different types of collaterals at work and not to forget the fact that banks would have tried to diversify the types of collateral they collect.

It is only in case of loans to govt., for eg Greece that govt treasury bonds act as collateral, which is where you can show some concern.
 
Last edited:

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,114
Likes
7,761
The Greek government bond is backed by what?
The way your salary statement is backed by the belief that you would not default. Govt. bonds are backed by the indefinite stream of taxes it can raise.

But now, I know the next question that you will fire at me. But I would reiterate here, it is not just the govt. that borrows from financial institutions.
 

panduranghari

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,245
Even if Greeks pay 100 % tax on their income, they could not pay by all their debt. The story is not much different in most of the world. It's actually worst in USA and UK. The good thing as reported by the Financial media is these countries can print their own currency out of thin air so they are not facing real austerity for now.

Why should govt buy from financial institution s? They borrow by issuing their own debt. This debt is backed by nothing but the belief that the government will ensure the creditors are paid back. What we are seeing in Greece is the inability of Greek govt to Pay it back . The debt is Greek, the creditors are rest of EU and USA. These countries will rather get whatever it can get than allow Greece to default.

The problem is not Greek debt. That is the symptom of the problem. The problem is the buying and selling of debt.

A system as such has reached the Keynesian endpoint.

The mainstream media does not understand this and hence they do not report it.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,114
Likes
7,761
Even if Greeks pay 100 % tax on their income, they could not pay by all their debt. The story is not much different in most of the world. It's actually worst in USA and UK. The good thing as reported by the Financial media is these countries can print their own currency out of thin air so they are not facing real austerity for now.

Why should govt buy from financial institution s? They borrow by issuing their own debt. This debt is backed by nothing but the belief that the government will ensure the creditors are paid back. What we are seeing in Greece is the inability of Greek govt to Pay it back . The debt is Greek, the creditors are rest of EU and USA. These countries will rather get whatever it can get than allow Greece to default.

The problem is not Greek debt. That is the symptom of the problem. The problem is the buying and selling of debt.

A system as such has reached the Keynesian endpoint.

The mainstream media does not understand this and hence they do not report it.
For some reason you seem to be fascinated by debt theory of the Austrians.

So, I will dissect your arguments again. There is a lot of accounting going on in the above arguments that you need to be aware of. I will tell who is in debt and how:
1. Say Barclays raise 100$ through retail operations and is free to lend it. So, this would be counted as an addition to financial debt whether Barclays lend it or not. If it lends, it will usually ask for a collateral.
2. Govt. of Greece issues bonds to raise 100$ through free market operations(which is the usual practice). This would be added to govt. debt of Greece.
3. Barclays comes and buys these 100$ bonds assuming that Greek govt. would pay it using future tax revenues.
So, you can see the above debt accounting stands. While Barclays adds to its financial debt, Greece too adds to its govt. debt. Hope this point gets across.

Now coming to the second argument, whether Greece can pay back or not. It is not about paying back in one year but under some finite horizon of time. There is this concept of Ricardian equivalence, whether govt. should finance its expenses through bonds or taxes. Under suitable restrictions, it does not matter how the govt. raises this money. Due to the formulated policies, the govt. are always in debt(sometimes war or say financial crisis). I will again give an example to hammer in the concept of govt. debt and when to worry and when not to worry. Given that the govt. is believed to be ever-lasting it never actually pays back except like in case of Greece where it has reached tragic proportions and has to be dismantled.
Eg. You must have heard that IMF and world bank starts raising their voices once the fiscal deficit of a country goes around 3% in developed world. But in case of India it is well above 5%, but still does not raise any eyebrows. Say GDP of India was 100$ and govt debt 50$ at the start of year(50% of GDP). Due to high expenses the taxes could not cover entire expenses and leaves a fiscal deficit of 5% ie 5$. So, govt debt increases to 55$. But India grows at 10% per annum, so the GDP grows to 110$ and the debt to GDP ratio still remains 50%. As long as the country has enough growth to cover its fiscal deficit in the long run there is no problem. If say the deficit was just 2% ie 2$ the new debt to GDP ratio would have been(52/110 less than the previous year). If you remember the recent debates of Pranab, he was concerned with this very fact, because as you can see above we need a high rate of growth to keep the debt-GDP ratio under control else it erodes the credibility of govt to pay off in the long run.

Coming back to Greece. The reason people do not want Greece to default is because it erodes credibility of different institutions and create a bad atmosphere for investment. That is how 30s saw the worst depression. It is best for Greece to default in short run and start afresh but in the long run Greece's credibility will take a hit and in a highly interconnected world they would not be able to support themselves through domestic market. Just like its creditors, it is as much in the interest of Greece to not default. I do not want to continue giving open ended answers like debt is bad or good, but rather prefer case studies.

The reason the US govt. had to intervene was because of the crisis and they have done more good in handling the crisis rather than what is being professed by some Austrian counterparts. The decision is yours whether to take small suffering over a longer period of time or take a big one in one instance. The current policy of Fed is working in the first direction. But more about it later. Hope it did ring some bells.
 
Last edited:

panduranghari

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,245
For some reason you seem to be fascinated by debt theory of the Austrians.
Not just me. Angela Merkel and Sarkozy were fascinated and scared of the debt too. So are many people who are eye balls in debt. So are those who are the creditors. They are worried too, lest they get nothing back. Anyone who has not yet heard of Greece and their debt must have not read or seen about it on the MSM.


So, I will dissect your arguments again. There is a lot of accounting going on in the above arguments that you need to be aware of. I will tell who is in debt and how:
1. Say Barclays raise 100$ through retail operations and is free to lend it. So, this would be counted as an addition to financial debt whether Barclays lend it or not. If it lends, it will usually ask for a collateral.
2. Govt. of Greece issues bonds to raise 100$ through free market operations(which is the usual practice). This would be added to govt. debt of Greece.
3. Barclays comes and buys these 100$ bonds assuming that Greek govt. would pay it using future tax revenues.
So, you can see the above debt accounting stands. While Barclays adds to its financial debt, Greece too adds to its govt. debt. Hope this point gets across.
We agree on that.

Now coming to the second argument, whether Greece can pay back or not. It is not about paying back in one year but under some finite horizon of time. There is this concept of Ricardian equivalence, whether govt. should finance its expenses through bonds or taxes. Under suitable restrictions, it does not matter how the govt. raises this money.
Yes government can raise the money in whatever way its possible. They can do by raising taxes. The taxes can go so high that the economy effectively becomes a cash economy or cash+kind economy. Perhaps undisclosed and unreported to the tax authority. Or people come out on the streets protesting very high taxes. Political suicide. No wonder we have a bureaucrat in power in Greece. He cares for nothing like political survival. He is doing a job of imposing the necessary
cuts which will balance the economy. There is no chance greece will balance itself under the current economic system. The current system relies on expanding debt which will make socialism possible. I personally see the welfare state in the west in the form of benefits to be gone very soon. Swedes love to think that they can have a very high standard of living due to 90% tax and welfare for all. I doubt if such an economy is sustainable.

The other thing the government can do if tax increases are not politically palatable is to debase the currency.

This shows exactly the thing.



Inflation is a hidden tax that we all pay for holding decreed money also called Fiat Currency also known as notes like pounds, dollars etc. Its hidden from general view.

I ask you this,
If money was stable, would you need to chase an Yield? Would you risk it in stocks or bonds or options or warrants or exchange traded funds? I for one have neither the time nor the inclination to do invest in trading or constantly watching the money.

I would rather spend time doing what I think I can do best. And that is not possible with todays economy. I came into the financial discussion in 2008 when the economy was in doldrums. Until then I was oblivious to the risks. I had a reasonable share trading account. A good friend always says,' You do not own your stuff, your stuff owns you.'

What he means is we always have the baggage and sometimes this baggage does not allow us to see something very obvious.

Due to the formulated policies, the govt. are always in debt(sometimes war or say financial crisis). I will again give an example to hammer in the concept of govt. debt and when to worry and when not to worry. Given that the govt. is believed to be ever-lasting it never actually pays back except like in case of Greece where it has reached tragic proportions and has to be dismantled.
Eg. You must have heard that IMF and world bank starts raising their voices once the fiscal deficit of a country goes around 3% in developed world. But in case of India it is well above 5%, but still does not raise any eyebrows. Say GDP of India was 100$ and govt debt 50$ at the start of year(50% of GDP). Due to high expenses the taxes could not cover entire expenses and leaves a fiscal deficit of 5% ie 5$. So, govt debt increases to 55$. But India grows at 10% per annum, so the GDP grows to 110$ and the debt to GDP ratio still remains 50%. As long as the country has enough growth to cover its fiscal deficit in the long run there is no problem. If say the deficit was just 2% ie 2$ the new debt to GDP ratio would have been(52/110 less than the previous year).
I told you I have no problem with debt per se. The problem is with the non availability of a suitable extinguishable mechanism to say the debt is cleared. At a high enough price physical gold can do that. And since Bretton Woods in 1944 this was not available as gold was constrained by gold standard or gold exchange standard.

This is what my signature says,'Gold is an asset based currency, thus it represents payment in full, where as fiat currency is a debt based currency that represents a claim in the system. In this light, the 'preservation of wealth' simply means - he who holds gold has already been paid."

I think the Euro is taking us that way.

If you remember the recent debates of Pranab, he was concerned with this very fact, because as you can see above we need a high rate of growth to keep the debt-GDP ratio under control else it erodes the credibility of govt to pay off in the long run.

Coming back to Greece. The reason people do not want Greece to default is because it erodes credibility of different institutions and create a bad atmosphere for investment. That is how 30s saw the worst depression. It is best for Greece to default in short run and start afresh but in the long run Greece's credibility will take a hit and in a highly interconnected world they would not be able to support themselves through domestic market. Just like its creditors, it is as much in the interest of Greece to not default. I do not want to continue giving open ended answers like debt is bad or good, but rather prefer case studies.
What I have highlighted clearly shows the problem within the system. We need infinite growth to achieve infinite GDP to keep the infinite debt under control.

That is not possible as this video shows; ( see the whole 8 part series- its awesome)

The greatest short coming of a human mind is its inability to understand the exponential function.

The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8) - YouTube

The reason the US govt. had to intervene was because of the crisis and they have done more good in handling the crisis rather than what is being professed by some Austrian counterparts. The decision is yours whether to take small suffering over a longer period of time or take a big one in one instance. The current policy of Fed is working in the first direction. But more about it later. Hope it did ring some bells.
I end this with a von Mises quote

There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.
 

aerokan

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Messages
1,024
Likes
817
Country flag
Not just me. Angela Merkel and Sarkozy were fascinated and scared of the debt too. So are many people who are eye balls in debt. So are those who are the creditors. They are worried too, lest they get nothing back. Anyone who has not yet heard of Greece and their debt must have not read or seen about it on the MSM.




We agree on that.



Yes government can raise the money in whatever way its possible. They can do by raising taxes. The taxes can go so high that the economy effectively becomes a cash economy or cash+kind economy. Perhaps undisclosed and unreported to the tax authority. Or people come out on the streets protesting very high taxes. Political suicide. No wonder we have a bureaucrat in power in Greece. He cares for nothing like political survival. He is doing a job of imposing the necessary
cuts which will balance the economy. There is no chance greece will balance itself under the current economic system. The current system relies on expanding debt which will make socialism possible. I personally see the welfare state in the west in the form of benefits to be gone very soon. Swedes love to think that they can have a very high standard of living due to 90% tax and welfare for all. I doubt if such an economy is sustainable.

The other thing the government can do if tax increases are not politically palatable is to debase the currency.

This shows exactly the thing.



Inflation is a hidden tax that we all pay for holding decreed money also called Fiat Currency also known as notes like pounds, dollars etc. Its hidden from general view.

I ask you this,
If money was stable, would you need to chase an Yield? Would you risk it in stocks or bonds or options or warrants or exchange traded funds? I for one have neither the time nor the inclination to do invest in trading or constantly watching the money.

I would rather spend time doing what I think I can do best. And that is not possible with todays economy. I came into the financial discussion in 2008 when the economy was in doldrums. Until then I was oblivious to the risks. I had a reasonable share trading account. A good friend always says,' You do not own your stuff, your stuff owns you.'

What he means is we always have the baggage and sometimes this baggage does not allow us to see something very obvious.



I told you I have no problem with debt per se. The problem is with the non availability of a suitable extinguishable mechanism to say the debt is cleared. At a high enough price physical gold can do that. And since Bretton Woods in 1944 this was not available as gold was constrained by gold standard or gold exchange standard.

This is what my signature says,'Gold is an asset based currency, thus it represents payment in full, where as fiat currency is a debt based currency that represents a claim in the system. In this light, the 'preservation of wealth' simply means - he who holds gold has already been paid."

I think the Euro is taking us that way.



What I have highlighted clearly shows the problem within the system. We need infinite growth to achieve infinite GDP to keep the infinite debt under control.

That is not possible as this video shows; ( see the whole 8 part series- its awesome)

The greatest short coming of a human mind is its inability to understand the exponential function.

The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8) - YouTube



I end this with a von Mises quote

There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.
Perfectly put. Those who are indoctrinated by the current financial logics cannot mould their thought process to see the facts. And then they wonder why they couldn't figure out the possible recessions. The simple fact is if there is no debt, there wouldn't be any money in the current perpetual financial monetary system. The current system is designed to make people go bankrupt with a 100% certainity
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
<the contents of the post have been truncated>
This post was a gem, a jewel, an eye-opener, and, very depressing.

I had always spoken out in favour of Gold Standard, especially when discussing US politics, and the proposed policies of Ron Paul. I knew much about this sinister plan, but now, I know a lot more.

I have no difficulty in speculating why the media houses of the US would be so disinterested in giving enough exposure to what Ron Paul has to say.

We live in a strange world.

Usury, the biggest sin on this earth, cannot be avoided by this banking cartel that controls the strings of the world. Why is Gold Standard ridiculed? Why is Islamic Banking ridiculed? Why is Marxism ridiculed? It all makes sense. Sure, Gold Standard, Islamic Banking, Marxism, are all meant for simpletons, but then to get simpletons, who most people of this world are, to participate in the monetary system, the system has to be simple. They are simple, because, it is based on the simple understanding that money cannot be created out of thin air, but lies and deception can be.



There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.

By Ludwig von Mises

Ludwig von Mises Institute : The Austrian School Is Advancing Liberty
I have worked with von Mises distribution. It is like a Gaussian wrapped around a point.

Von Mises also predicted the collapse of the USSR.

My humble respects to you Pandu! You are a great addition to this forum.

On an unrelated note, could you please hand me the link to the post where you talked about the Space Shuttle's booster rockets being as thick as a horse's ass?

Thanks!

Edit: I found that link. :)
 

panduranghari

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,245
Pmaitra,

There is no reason to be depressed. The new system is going to be equitable.

eq·ui·ta·ble"‚
adjective
1.
characterized by equity or fairness; just and right; fair; reasonable: equitable treatment of all citizens.
You do not need to live in USA to be rich, you living in Indonesia will not make you poor. You will be what you want to be. You will produce more than you consume, you will have surplus. You consume more than you produce, you will not be in surplus.

We have been allowed to borrow to afford a car, a house, a life. The new system will not allow that.

I am not saying you will never get loans. You will. The loans will be for creating something that will be useful to mankind.

I have many thoughts on these matters which I have discussed at length with some others on another forum. We will see a remarkable progress of mankind. No more will the select few (10%) in the west enjoy the fruits of labour of the 90% of mankind.

The time is closer than we all think. I for one cannot wait. It will mean I have to work harder than I currently do. But if the system is equitable and if we all can benefit, many people will be willing to let go of this inequality.
 

panduranghari

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,245
I have worked with von Mises distribution. It is like a Gaussian wrapped around a point.

Von Mises also predicted the collapse of the USSR.

My humble respects to you Pandu! You are a great addition to this forum.
This may be of interest to you too.

By KYLE WINGFIELD

Auburn, Alabama

Growing up, I never thought of Alabama as a beacon of academia. Living in its capital city of Montgomery for two years didn't exactly change my mind. It wasn't until I moved to Europe that I realized the Heart of Dixie was a wellspring of sensible economic thinking.

One by one, I met young, capitalist Continentals who had studied in Auburn. Not at Auburn University, mind you, which is Alabama's largest college but is associated more with physical specimens like Bo Jackson than with free-market philosophers. Rather, they had flocked to the Ludwig von Mises Institute, a think tank located just off campus that preaches the works of Hayek, Rothbard and other economists from the Austrian School -- including, of course, the institute's namesake.

In the 1920s and '30s, Ludwig von Mises was a leading light of Austrian economic thought, which sought to counter the growing trend toward socialism by arguing for limited government, lower taxes, stronger private property rights and less business regulation. In 1934, though, Mises fled the Nazis in Vienna -- first to Switzerland and later to America, where he was a prolific thinker and writer until his death in 1973.

Nine years later, the Mises Institute opened its doors, publishing free-market texts in a variety of languages and drawing scholars for research sabbaticals and formal programs such as its weeklong Mises University, which ends tomorrow. "It's like a combination [between a] monastery and software firm," Jeffrey Tucker, a vice president of the institute, explained when I visited.

Mises counts free-marketers from more than 30 states and at least 22 other countries -- including people on all six inhabited continents -- among its senior or adjunct faculty. Its students' homes are equally far-flung: Poland, Peru, Argentina, Canada, France, China and beyond this year alone. "It's a little funny, I think," says Alberto Mingardi, an Italian free-marketer who has visited the institute twice. "How can you even imagine meeting somebody in Europe who knows about the Auburn Tigers?"

How did Mr. Mingardi pass the time in "the Loveliest Village on the Plain"? "Just following the lessons and browsing the [institute's] library the rest of the day. And of course I was enjoying the many cultural attractions of Alabama." Uh huh . . . and which of these attractions draw the interest of a man from Milan? A pause. Two beats. "Southern food," he finally concludes. "I like fried stuff, so that was my thing."

Amen to that. But a nagging question remains: How does a world-class think tank end up in east Alabama?

Mr. Tucker notes that, back in 1982, Auburn University had one of the few Austrian-tolerant economics departments. (Mises might not be affiliated with the university, but its founders likely anticipated a healthy intellectual exchange. A hostile faculty wasn't desirable.) He also points out that the city of Auburn has many redeeming qualities: a charming downtown, low prices for room and board, quick access to Atlanta's international airport, good ol' Southern hospitality (and cooking), and few distractions.

All true. But allow me to make an additional case. At the heart of Austrian economics is a skepticism of powerful, central authority. And Southerners have always been distrustful of government. Our libertarian streak -- which flares up from time to time, for reasons both good and very bad -- makes us natural allies for the Austrian tradition.

The institute's location also says something about the quality and depth of American intellectual life. America is lampooned as philistine in many quarters, especially in Europe, yet its bastions of learning are not limited to its Gothams. In fact, having such an outfit so far away from the country's usual hubs is in itself a rejection of the central planning and authority Mises spent his life fighting. He might never have visited Auburn, but something tells me he wouldn't have put this institute any other place.
"Everyone carries a part of society on his shoulders," wrote Ludwig von Mises, "no one is relieved of his share of responsibility by others. And no one can find a safe way for himself if society is sweeping towards destruction. Therefore everyone, in his own interest, must thrust himself vigorously into the intellectual battle."
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,114
Likes
7,761
Not just me. Angela Merkel and Sarkozy were fascinated and scared of the debt too. So are many people who are eye balls in debt. So are those who are the creditors. They are worried too, lest they get nothing back. Anyone who has not yet heard of Greece and their debt must have not read or seen about it on the MSM.
Scared of bad debt!!

We agree on that.
Good that we agree here when I explained the statistics and the double counting.

Yes government can raise the money in whatever way its possible. They can do by raising taxes. The taxes can go so high that the economy effectively becomes a cash economy or cash+kind economy. Perhaps undisclosed and unreported to the tax authority. Or people come out on the streets protesting very high taxes. Political suicide. No wonder we have a bureaucrat in power in Greece. He cares for nothing like political survival. He is doing a job of imposing the necessary
cuts which will balance the economy. There is no chance greece will balance itself under the current economic system. The current system relies on expanding debt which will make socialism possible. I personally see the welfare state in the west in the form of benefits to be gone very soon. Swedes love to think that they can have a very high standard of living due to 90% tax and welfare for all. I doubt if such an economy is sustainable.

The other thing the government can do if tax increases are not politically palatable is to debase the currency.

This shows exactly the thing.



Inflation is a hidden tax that we all pay for holding decreed money also called Fiat Currency also known as notes like pounds, dollars etc. Its hidden from general view.
People are talking about austerity even in Greece and that is a political decision. No time in history did we have a currency completely backed by gold. It always has had fiduciary money on the side. The above system you are advocating is as susceptible to socialism as any other system.

Everyone in mainstream economics know that increase in money supply goes directly to inflation in the long run. So, nothing new about that graph. But it presents only half the picture. Although there was an increase in money supply but still the living standard of Britain went up during this time.

I ask you this,
If money was stable, would you need to chase an Yield? Would you risk it in stocks or bonds or options or warrants or exchange traded funds? I for one have neither the time nor the inclination to do invest in trading or constantly watching the money.

I would rather spend time doing what I think I can do best. And that is not possible with todays economy. I came into the financial discussion in 2008 when the economy was in doldrums. Until then I was oblivious to the risks. I had a reasonable share trading account. A good friend always says,' You do not own your stuff, your stuff owns you.'

What he means is we always have the baggage and sometimes this baggage does not allow us to see something very obvious.



I told you I have no problem with debt per se. The problem is with the non availability of a suitable extinguishable mechanism to say the debt is cleared. At a high enough price physical gold can do that. And since Bretton Woods in 1944 this was not available as gold was constrained by gold standard or gold exchange standard.

This is what my signature says,'Gold is an asset based currency, thus it represents payment in full, where as fiat currency is a debt based currency that represents a claim in the system. In this light, the 'preservation of wealth' simply means - he who holds gold has already been paid."

I think the Euro is taking us that way.
So if we use a gold backed currency inflation would be directly related to how much gold is dug in an year rather than the productivity increase in the economy. This system is guaranteed to cause deflation if the supply of gold dwindles below what is required for smooth functioning in the economy and it would further lead to increase in unemployment and worsening of the economy. Rather than using a gold standard, we need a monitory policy based on some rules like we have constitution for dealing with other stuff. But jumping to gold standard is an equally big fallacy.

Leaving you with this:
3.4.2. The Incorrect and Controversial Aspects of the ABC

What then remains controversial about the ABC - and, as the sequel argues - incorrect? Some of the more important features of the ABC include:

Proposition 3: Monetary expansion distorts the structure of production in an unsustainable way.

Proposition 4: The ABC explains the "sudden general cluster of business errors."

Proposition 5: The ABC provides the best explanation for why downturns hit the capital goods sectors especially hard.

Proposition 6: Only the Austrian theory can explain the existence of inflationary depressions (or "stagflation").

Austrians along with almost all other economists accept that expansionary monetary policy tends to reduce interest rates (definitely real interest rates, and usually nominal rates as well) in the short term.[46] There is no question that this change in interest rates tends to affect the profitability of different investments; as Austrians emphasize, with lower interest rates, more "round-about" investments will become profitable. Projects with returns further in the future previously might have had a negative present discounted value; lower the interest rate, and the PDV quite possibly might become positive. Bohm-Bawerk's capital theory - focusing on the intertemporal coordination of numerous stages of production - does incline Austrians to be particularly aware of the tendency of lower interest rates to stimulate more round-about projects. But modern neoclassicals would surely also accept the claim that lower interest rates alter PDV calculations in favor of investments with more distant returns.[47]

Thus, it is readily conceded that (a) expansionary monetary policy reduces interest rates, and (b) lower interest rates stimulate investment in more round-about projects. Where then does the disagreement emerge? What I deny is that the artificially stimulated investments have any tendency to become malinvestments. Supposedly, since the central bank's inflation cannot continue indefinitely, it is eventually necessary to let interest rates rise back to the natural rate, which then reveals the underlying unprofitability of the artificially stimulated investments. The objection is simple: Given that interest rates are artificially and unsustainably low, why would any businessman make his profitability calculations based on the assumption that the low interest rates will prevail indefinitely? No, what would happen is that entrepreneurs would realize that interest rates are only temporarily low, and take this into account.

In short, the Austrians are assuming that entrepreneurs have strange irrational expectations. Rothbard states this fairly explicitly: "[E]ntrepreneurs are trained to estimate changes and avoid error. They can handle irregular fluctuations, and certainly they should be able to cope with the results of an inflow of gold, results which are roughly predictable. They could not forecast the results of a credit expansion, because the credit expansion tampered with all their moorings, distorted interest rates and calculations of capital."[48] Elsewhere, he informs us that: "uccessful entrepreneurs on the market will be precisely those, over the years, who are best equipped to make correct forecasts and use good judgment in analyzing market conditions. Under these conditions, it is absurd to suppose that the entire mass of entrepreneurs will make such errors, unless objective facts of the market are distorted over a considerable period of time. Such distortion will hobble the objective 'signals' of the market and mislead the great bulk of entrepreneurs."[49]

Why does Rothbard think businessmen are so incompetent at forecasting government policy? He credits them with entrepreneurial foresight about all market-generated conditions, but curiously finds them unable to forecast government policy, or even to avoid falling prey to simple accounting illusions generated by inflation and deflation. Even if simple businessmen just use current market interest rates in a completely robotic way, why doesn't arbitrage by the credit-market insiders make long-term interest rates a reasonable prediction of actual policies? The problem is supposed to be that businessmen just look at current interest rates, figure out the PDV of possible investments, and due to artificially low interest rates (which can't persist forever) they wind up making malinvestments. But why couldn't they just use the credit market's long-term interest rates for forecasting profitability instead of stupidly looking at current short-term rates? Particularly in interventionist economies, it would seem that natural selection would weed out businesspeople with such a gigantic blind spot. Moreover, even if most businesspeople don't understand that low interest rates are only temporary, the long-term interest rate will still be a good forecast so long as the professional interest rate speculators don't make the same mistake.

It should be noted that other Austrians, particularly Roger Garrison, attempt to handle the expectational objection. Garrison astutely notes that "[M]acroeconomic irrationality does not imply individual irrationality. An individual can rationally choose to initiate or perpetuate a chain letter... Similarly, it is possible for the individual to profit by his participation in a market process that is - and is known by that individual to be - an ill-fated process."[50] This is definitely a possible scenario. But does it make sense in this particular case? It does not. Naturally, entrepreneurs will not turn down lower interest rates. Rather, the rational response to artificially low interest rates is to (a) make investments which will be profitable even though interest rates will later rise, and (b) refrain from making investments which would be profitable only on the assumption that interest rates will not later rise. If entrepreneurs followed this rule, then there would be no tendency for policy reversals to produce malinvestments.

The Austrian theory also suffers from serious internal inconsistencies. If, as in the Austrian theory, initial consumption/investment preferences "re-assert themselves," why don't the consumption goods industries enjoy a huge boom during depressions? After all, if the prices of the capital goods factors are too high, are not the prices of the consumption goods factors too low? Wage workers in capital goods industries are unhappy when old time preferences re-assert themselves. But wage workers in consumer goods industries should be overjoyed. The Austrian theory predicts a decline in employment in some sectors, but an increase in others; thus, it does nothing to explain why unemployment is high during the "bust" and low during the "boom."

Even more striking is the Austrian theory's inability to explain why output declines during a depression; instead, it predicts a short-term increase.[51] Bohm-Bawerk's capital theory, on which Rothbard wisely built his work, implies that actually the short-run effect of switching to consumer goods production would be a period of greater production, followed by a period in which production is less than it would otherwise have been if longer period products had been used instead.[52] In short, the Austrian theory all-too-glibly identifies the period of artificially low interest rates with the boom, and the period of re-adjustment with the bust. Without extra assumptions, the theory does not predict an increase in employment during the boom, or a decrease during the bust. Moreover, it predicts an actual increase in current output during the bust. These are puzzling implications, to put it mildly, and they follow from the ABC.

A final supposed merit of the ABC is that it explains why capital goods industries suffer more than consumer goods industries during depressions.[53] Modern neoclassical economics however offers a simple alternative explanation. One interesting business cycle fact is that durable consumer goods production suffers along with the capital goods industries. A simple explanation for both phenomenon is that any durable good purchase, whether durable capital goods or durable consumer goods, is going to be much more sensitive to changes in income or profitability than non-durable purchases. In any period buyers of durable goods both replenish their stock to account for depreciation, plus adjust their desired total stock depending upon new information about profitability (for firms) or permanent income (for individuals). The arrival of a depression causes both forecasts to be adjusted downwards; often this means that there is no point even making up for depreciation, since natural wear-and-tear simply moves you closer to your new, lower total stock. The most basic model of demand for durable goods provides a coherent explanation for why producers' goods industries suffer more during depressions; and unlike the "acceleration" theory that Rothbard properly ridicules, the theory of demand for durable goods follows rigorously from basic microeconomics.

Another interesting argument made in favor of the Austrian theory is that it is the only theory capable of explaining stagflation - the simultaneous presence of high unemployment and high inflation. Rothbard, for example, describes the Austrian theory as "the only proffered explanation" of stagflation.[54] To the contrary, there were numerous theoretically rigorous explanations of stagflation, most of which were well-known to sophisticated academics in 1978 when Rothbard made this claim in favor of the ABC. To name a few:

a. Natural resource shocks, e.g. oil (reduces supply, raising price and reducing output).

b. The rational-expectations explanation: Workers wake up from their real/nominal wage confusion and demand a raise to compensate for inflation (again, reduces supply, raising price and reducing output). Lucas won the last Nobel prize for his work on this idea.

c. Technology shocks (again, reduces supply, raising price and reduces output). The theory which attributes business cycles to technology shocks, known as real business cycle theory, has been a hot topic in macro theory for a decade.

Let me emphasize that all of the arguments in this section have been essentially theoretical, not empirical. The ABC requires bizarre assumptions about entrepreneurial stupidity in order to work: in particular, it must assume that businesspeople blindly use current interest rates to make investment decisions. Even if we accept the ABC, it has important internal inconsistencies: it does not in fact predict changes in employment, and predicts that output will increase during depressions. Moreover, the experience of stagflation is no argument for the ABC, because numerous other theories (most of them developed before stagflation became important) can also account for stagflation.

These objections to the ABC, as mentioned, solely apply to the "controversial" parts of the theory. Austrians were entirely correct to decry the dinosaur Keynesians' neglect of the interaction between wages and employment.[55] Government officials, journalists, the general public, and weaker academics still need to learn this lesson. But the modal academic economist already knows the lesson. If the ABC has anything to contribute, it must add something further - something both original and true - to this lesson. There is little reason to believe that it can.


You can find the complete article here with a few good things about Austrian economics: Why I Am Not an Austrian Economist

And yes we do not need infinite growth to maintain debt-GDP ratio. It is always a political decision whether to tax the current generation or future. But someone will always pay in the end. So there is no point in putting the blame on monetary policy for something that has its roots in our political follies.

Another glimpse in what mainstream economists believe: http://www.mpls.frb.org/research/qr/qr1931.pdf
(You can go to the last pages of pdf to look at the graphs which explains the present view of macroeconomists)
 
Last edited:

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top