DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by H.A., Jul 10, 2012.

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Can DRDO design Artillery able to pass into mass production?

  1. Yeah

    76.5%
  2. Nope

    9.0%
  3. Depends

    13.9%
  4. Can`t Say

    3.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    You have Arjun tank as an example. Here Army wanted a tank with 4 people capacity (T90 has 3), mine plough, heavy armour and yet have 55ton weight! Any standard tank of similar category liek Abrams, Merkava etc have 65ton weight. But Indian army gave a futuristic specification for DRDO which became untenable. So, it is such futuristic specifications which cause problem rather than DRDO doing wrong things
     
  2. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    This is the problem with you people. When DRDO can't develop products meeting requirements in time, you start blaming the requirements themselves. How can you or DRDO decide what do the armed forces need to fight the war?

    If you really so confident about 39 calibers of Dhanush, why don't you buy Dhanush yourself and use it on LOC against Pakistanis? That will really show Indian Army how things are done.
     
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  3. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Dude, you are simply betraying your lack of knowledge by writing such posts. Please look at the changes requested by army in Arjun Mk1. Weight was not one of them.
     
  4. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    Dhanush is 45 caliber and has chamber caacity of 23 litre while ATAGS is 52 caliber and chamber of 35 litre. ATHOS is 52 caliber with chamber of 23 litre. Dhanush weighs 12ton, ATAGS weighs 17-18 tons while ATHOS weighs 12tons

    So, ATHOS is more similar to Dhanush than to ATAGS. I don't understand how you say ATHOS is similar to ATAGS when it chamber capacity is lower and in turn has lesser range.

    I am speaking of Arjun Mk2 induction. The main pain point is weight. I don't understand how come you are twisting the obvious fact of excessive weight being criticised everywhere.
     
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  5. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    The issue being discussed here is piecemeal orders which started when DRDO developed the flawed Arjun Mk1. Clear now?
     
  6. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    @Vijyes

    chamber capacity of 25 litres as compared to 23 liters is the one which has lead to gun being overweight by 3-4 tons without any attendant benefits.
    Larger chamber pressure means more BMC can be put inside chambers which will give a little more velocity and range.
    But larger chamber/ charges means more recoil and more safety issues.
    More charge means more explosive which means lower EFC and short barrel life.
    More maintenance problems / requirement.
    It is a gimmick / chataki without any significant benefits.

    All 155 Howitzers should be of similar range to achieve greater concentration of fire rather than ATAGS playing its own fiddle. Say in an area I have 36 ATHOS with 41 km range and 36 guns of 47 km ATAGS. Now I can not concentrate fire of 72 guns at 42 km range. It can be 41 km and below.so what is the use of only some guns having more range unless I have a separate task for those.

    This issue has been discussed adequately in the Thread and there is no use raising it de novo
     
  7. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    Can you tell me the benefit of ATHOS over Dhanush? Except for 3km range difference, what is the problem of Dhanush that it can't be used to replace ATHOS. Don't blame OFB or production agency but answer in terms of design deficiency and problems caused in operational use.

    Please take an example of 2 scenarios:
    1) only dhanush guns are used
    2) Only ATHOS are used

    Then explain what difference exists in the two scenarios that shows ATHOS is better
     
  8. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    There is no difference between the two except the caliber.
    IA Artillery have determined the caliber to be 155/ 52 . If Dhanus can be made 52 caliber there would not be any difference if it passes the development and users trials.
    Another issue is price which should be comparable to ATHOS or less. With ToT in hand, a 45 caliber gun alraedy existing, the cost can be brought down.
    However, The OFB will have to look after the associated issues such as recoil system, mount , APU, turning radius and attendant weight increase.

    The most important aspect will be production capacity of OFB which is barely around 30 guns per annum.
     
  9. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    Bhadra where you get this 30 guns per annum capacity of OFB? Any reference?
    The Dhanush delivery is 3 years from order for 114 guns. Out of which 18 months could be lead time.

    Once line is running, the output should be 6-8 guns per month. Barring any performance issues reported by user.
     
  10. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    OK, 6-8 guns per month make it to 72 Guns per annum. OFB will barely ablr to replace 400 existing Bofors in four years say by the end of 2022.

    But India Army needs 1585 (or so) towed artillery guns by 2022. Minus 400 means 1200 guns. Who will give that ?
    ATAGS - may be 120 Guns per annum, say 400 Guns.
    ATHOS - 100 direct import, 400 made in India .
    You are still short by - 300 Guns

    Plus about 1500 additional, mounted / motorised / Motorised SP.
    It is a windfall for suppliers - Make anf give it.

    Ram Naam Ki Loot Hai, Loot Sake To Loot
    Ant Kaal Pachhtayega, jab Pran Jayenge Chhut
     
  11. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    BF Elbit Advanced Systems Pvt Ltd
    Bharat Forge Limited, the flagship company, of the Kalyani Group, and Elbit Systems Land and C4I Ltd., a wholly owned subsidiary of Elbit Systems Ltd., (NASDAQ and TASE: ESLT) have formed a strategic co-operation in India through the establishment of a new Joint Venture Company (BF Elbit Advanced Systems Pvt Ltd), to address the Indian Ministry of Defence and other potential Indian government customers’ requirements for the most advanced artillery and mortars systems solutions.

    The JV Company is offering solutions in the Artillery Guns & Mortars segment based on Elbit Systems’ cutting edge technologically advanced products operationally used worldwide, such as the ATHOS 155/52 Towed Gun System, the ATMOS 155/52 Mounted Gun System and the upgraded 130 mm M46 Gun to a 155/45 Gun (KARAN). The JV Company is also rolling out a range of futuristic products like the Advanced Indian Gun System (ATAGS). The Company is bringing together Elbit Systems’ technology supremacy, system integration capabilities and Bharat Forge’s advanced capabilities in the areas of design, engineering, manufacturing, testing and validation.

    “The Strategic Cooperation between Elbit Systems and Bharat Forge and specifically the BF Elbit Advanced Systems Pvt Ltd will address Indian defence requirements with operationally proven systems from Elbit Systems that have been customized and adapted for Indian conditions and manufactured at the World class manufacturing facility for end-to –end solutions for artillery systems and armoured vehicles upgrades established by Bharat Forge recently in India,” said Mr. Baba Kalyani, Chairman and Managing Director of Bharat Forge Limited.
    Mr. Bezhalel (Butzi) Machlis, Elbit Systems’ President and CEO, and formerly General Manager of Elbit Systems Land and C4I Division, noted: “We are proud to combine Bharat Forge’s systems integration and manufacturing expertise with Elbit Systems’ proven technology. We believe that offering innovative solutions, based on our combined vast operational experience and technological capabilities will position the JVC as a leading supplier to the Indian Ministry of Defence and other potential Indian government customers".

    *************************************************

    So what is the fun - ATAGS and ATHOS both systems / Guns are being manufactured by the same Company - Kalyani of Bharat Forge (my stock goes up...:pound::pound::pound:)
    So keep arguing like blind men with sticks in their hands hitting at a target they do not see and they can not aim at
     
  12. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Other than Kalyani, which other Indian companies have barrel build tech locally?
     
  13. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    Even Baba Kalyani got this technology from OFB. In India, all technology is made by DRDO or other PSU while private companies only take TOT and manufacture.

    Hmmm... So, Kalyani wants to use ATHOS as a platform to develop the skilling of labour to be used for making ATAGS. Now, it makes sense. Similar strategy was used for ammunition manufacturing where private companies were asked to tie up with foreign vendors to develop local manufacturing capability and then compulsory indigenisation in 5 years
     
  14. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

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    That’s not my question, was it?

    My question was, what are the other Indian private companies who can forge barrels locally?

    Edit: let me also tell you one more info given to me by one his ex-employee who worked as line manager many years back.

    Baba Kalyani not a typical Lala type baniya, he is a savant when it comes forging and machining.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  15. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Barrel making is basically high quality steel forging requiring skills in metallurgy and Forging.
    OFB / GCF Jabalpur and OBF factory Kanpur have been making gun barrels. OFB must also be making Arjun guns.
    DRDO developed and made 120mm rifled guns for Arjun MBT. Not sure who is making it.
    TATA who will be second bidder for ATAGS. I presume they can make barrels.
    L&T has established a large plant of their own to manufacture T-8Vajra. They claim that they can make a complete tank and must have barrel forging capability.

    Otherwise Forging industry in India which has developed due to forging of automotive parts is quite robust
     
  16. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Baba Kalyani is into bigger game.
    The had been carrying out upgradation of 130mm M46 guns into 155 in collaboration with SLTAM (Now ELBIT).

    They have also built ATMOS, 155 Mounted system and will be biding for that mounted system also.
    They have built independent Gun named Bharat 52.
    They are developing light aluminium alloy barrels and Gun system to offer an alternative foe ULH.

    The mission for OFB and specially DRDO is to develop technologies and pass it to Indian Industry for production.
     
  17. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Yup, OFB Is there that’s for sure...

    This needs to be further looked into but I don’t think any other private company except of Kalyani group has the capability to manufacture arty gun barrels.

    Expert log!!! Anyone else else know the answer to this?

    @Indx TechStyle @Haldiram @porky_kicker @Prashant12

    Anyone else I missed out...
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  18. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Right now.....no! OFB & Kalyani are the only two.
    But then, any big company with capital (L&T etc) could buy artillery forging tools from abroad (just as Kalyani did few years ago).
     
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  19. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    It seems L&T makes 155/52mm gun barrels -


    http://www.larsentoubro.com/heavy-e...rvices/defence-aerospace/land-weapon-systems/
    "L&T has been at the forefront in providing high-end technology solutions for land-based forces. L&T's weapon systems such as Multi-Barrel Rocket Launchers, 155mm/52 Cal artillery guns – both towed and self-propelled and missile launchers enable land-based forces to deliver the right kind of ammunition at the right time with precision."

    L&T is in collaboration with Nexter as also South Korean Hanwa.
     
  20. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Where does it say that L&T is making 'gun barrels'?? You just made that (wrong) assumption....like you always do!!
    L&T does make several 'systems' that go into the towed/self-propelled artillery (ATAGS & K9)!

    FYI...wrt K9 Vajra, both the gun barrel and breach block are imported from Korea!
     
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