DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

[Bhadra]

Who told you that ATHOS will be made in India? All of ATHOS will be imported only. Not even one will be made in india

Please provide a valid reference ....
Thanks..

 

[garg_bharat]

The deal is there for 150 guns so far .... as per reports.
Indian Army requires about 3000 guns which OFB and Bharat Forge (ATAGS) alone will not be able to supply for next 15 years..

By then the howitzers themselves may become extinct ......

The reported number is 400 not 150. I think deal will be clear in a few weeks.

 

[Vijyes]

The cost of development has been paid by the Govt / DRDO, infrastructure for making barrels exists with OFB and Bharat Forge. Bharat Forge has one of the best forging infrastructure in the world. The ability to make mounts and recoil exists with Bharat Forge, TATA and OFB. Electronics and Fire Control system are being provided by DRDO labs. Making electric APU is not a big deal.

So what infrastructures cost ? just a "kutark"... a blind man's stick hitting in dark without an aim and target.

If Indian private industry , DRDO, OFB and DPSUs have to remain in business they have to be competitive rather than doing business with a sense of "doing a favour to the Nation" at exorbitant and uncompetitive costs.

If not, please target Indian govt GFR and DPP to accept DRDO product without any bidding and at any cost whatever. If L1 is a legal requirement it is not a Defence Services or even MoD tool to decide on procurements. It is a requirement of Financial Regulations as laid down by MoF and CAG of India.

The meaning of "indigenous" is economic benefits and not allowing others to exploit us rather than economic losses and blackmailing by Indian institutions like OFB / DRDO. They are enablers and not obstructors. It is perhaps DRDO / OFB abilities to make good 155 howitzers that made Elbit - Bharat Forge to offer ATHOS at a price lower than Dhanus. Those are the benefits and spin offs of "indigenisation".

Khalas !

The cost of development is paid by government but has to be repaid by sales. So, it is a form of circular accounting where government pays for R&D and then pays higher sales price so that extra money can then be given back to government to reimburse R&D cost.

So, the cost will appear to be high for initial batches but will taper off over time

The deal is there for 150 guns so far .... as per reports.
Indian Army requires about 3000 guns which OFB and Bharat Forge (ATAGS) alone will not be able to supply for next 15 years..

By then the howitzers themselves may become extinct ......

Why can't 2 companies make 1500 guns in 15 years? This is strange logic

Please provide a valid reference ....
Thanks..

You yourself have posted several artices which states that I will give the article again:

http://www.defencenews.in/article/E...5-mm,-52-calibre-towed-gun-competition-584056

Israeli Elbit has won the Indian Army’s 155 mm, 52 calibre towed artillery gun competition, of which the import content alone is valued at over $ 1 Billion. Elbit’s Indian partner is Bharat Forge. “The Elbit-Bharat Forge bid for the ATHOS 2052 howitzer was found significantly lower than that of French Nexter, which offered the Trajan gun jointly with its Indian partner Larsen & Toubro,” highly-placed sources told SP’s Correspondent. These guns have a firing range of above 40 km.

Sources hinted that the Elbit-Bharat Forge combine has pulled its price below even that of the Dhanush 155 mm, 42 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board of which the first six were handed over to the Indian Army on April 8. Even though it enjoys a big leeway as an indigenous effort, the ATAGS will be hard pressed to match the price of Elbit’s ATHOS 2052

This was an epic arms bazaar battle, involving several rounds of tendering and trials since the beginning of the last decade. The declaration of Elbit as ‘L1’ has cleared the decks for price negotiations.



While the requirement is for 1,580 towed guns, reports have suggested the possibility of the order being pruned to 400 imported guns. For the acquisition of the remaining 1,180 guns which were meant to be made in India under transfer of technology, the Government may opt instead for the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge.

But sources hinted that the Elbit-Bharat Forge combine has pulled its price below even that of the Dhanush 155 mm, 42 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board of which the first six were handed over to the Indian Army on April 8. Even though it enjoys a big leeway as an indigenous effort, the ATAGS will be hard pressed to match the price of Elbit’s ATHOS 2052.

The Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) – probably the world’s largest – was approved in 1999 to equip 169 artillery regiments with over 3,000 155 mm guns by 2027. One artillery regiment is usually equipped with 18 guns. Cost estimates are in the $8 to 10 Billion bracket. The programme, involving the acquisition of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted and 145 ultra light howitzers, will take decades for fruition. The order for 114 Dhanush guns may also grow to 400.

Adrift for two decades, India’s artillery modernisation plan appears finally falling into place. In 2018, the Indian Army started inducting the M777 ultra light howitzers and the K-9 Vajra tracked self-propelled guns. Both these guns are in the 155 mm, 52 calibre class, and the Indian Army’s first new artillery inductions since the infamous Bofors deal in 1986. The Dhanush, an upgrade of the Bofors FH-77B by the OFB, too has provided some cheer. The Army is buying 145 M777s, 100 K-9 Vajras, and has committed an order for 114 Dhanush guns after receiving the first six.

The Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) – probably the world’s largest – was approved in 1999 to equip 169 artillery regiments with over 3,000 155 mm guns by 2027. One artillery regiment is usually equipped with 18 guns. Cost estimates are in the $8 to 10 Billion bracket. The programme, involving the acquisition of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted and 145 ultra light howitzers, will take decades for fruition. The order for 114 Dhanush guns may also grow to 400.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Tu Kon .... Main Khamkhan !!!

Jal gayi kya.
Elitist, tum toh yahan ke RAHUL GANDHI HO.:bounce::bounce:

 

[Bhadra]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/apr...thos_2052_155mm_howitzers_to_indian_army.html

"At the end of several rounds of tendering and trials since the beginning of the last decade, the Israeli company Elbit Systems has won the Indian Army’s 155 mm/52 calibre towed artillery gun competition, of which the import content alone is valued at over $ 1 Billion. Elbit’s Indian partner is Bharat Forge, Indian Defence News reports."

It is not import of all guns .... initially some guns may be allowed to be ex factory but rest have to be made in India that is why Bharat Forge is the partners.

It is something like the case on Vajra SP Guns - some coming from S Korea and rest to be made in India by L&T.

This project is under Cat II of Make in India, I think.

 

[Bhadra]

The reported number is 400 not 150. I think deal will be clear in a few weeks.

Yes, I saw that article which says that out of 1588 towed guns, 400 could be imported.

But 400 could be higher figure.

Only 10 out of 100 K-9 Vajra have been imported and rest are being made L&T.

Order for 100 Dhanus has been placed.
Order for 150 ATAGS is likely to be placed after the trials.
Dhanus orders are likely upto 300 -400 depending on their being upgraded to 52 caliber.

Now there being three towed gun systems to be made in India - Dhanus, ATAGS and ATHOS, direct import quantity may reduce.

Army requires about 3000 plus gun by 2022 to complete their artillery modernisation plan. That quantity can not be supplied by one or two vendors in three years. I think that could be one of the major factors in multiple suppliers.

PS : L&T share prices are shooting up..... I am waiting for Bharat Forge to shoot up..

 

[Bhadra]

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[Bhadra]

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[aarav]

Athos hasn't been tested in pokhran like m777 or k9 vajra ,nor any DAC have approved anything related to it ,it is just a media hype by elbit

 

[Bhadra]

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[Bhadra]

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Athos hasn't been tested in pokhran like m777 or k9 vajra ,nor any DAC have approved anything related to it ,it is just a media hype by elbit

OK, but ATAGS also is being tested at Pokhran now and it is yet to be tested in other terrain and weather conditions. But DAC has approved procurement of 150 Guns ... How ??

Army has not issues any PSQR or GSQR ?

In all these discussion we are only discussing suitability of each system. It is only Dhanus and ATAGS fanboys who are shouting about numbers and their mantra of "Economy of Scale"... No one is interested in anything else. It is trade Union shout.

In entire discussion no one has even said a word about what shells OFB is manufacturing ? Their adequacy, range and requirements.
No one is interested in fuzes being used / why are these still under import or component import since requirements were spelled out in 1990.
No one says a word on BMC, its adequacy and improvement.
No one has spoken a word about shell course correction systems the Indian Army has issued RFI on about a month ago.
All subjects very closely connected to 155mm Howitzers.

Our so called scientist are using every opportunity to shout "this order should belong to them"... that is the beginning and that is the end of all massages and discussions. No science no technology. Nothing else.

In between they do not hesitate to call names, call one an import agent / dalal / foreign mal. Rajiv Gandhi type shouts.

It is a typical story of "Ye Pajama Mera"...

 

[Vijyes]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/apr...thos_2052_155mm_howitzers_to_indian_army.html

"At the end of several rounds of tendering and trials since the beginning of the last decade, the Israeli company Elbit Systems has won the Indian Army’s 155 mm/52 calibre towed artillery gun competition, of which the import content alone is valued at over $ 1 Billion. Elbit’s Indian partner is Bharat Forge, Indian Defence News reports."

It is not import of all guns .... initially some guns may be allowed to be ex factory but rest have to be made in India that is why Bharat Forge is the partners.

It is something like the case on Vajra SP Guns - some coming from S Korea and rest to be made in India by L&T.

This project is under Cat II of Make in India, I think.

Vajra is assembled in India as Korea refused any TOT for it. Similarly, ATHOS will be assembled in India. But manufacturing is a different ball game

 

[Bhadra]

Vajra is assembled in India as Korea refused any TOT for it. Similarly, ATHOS will be assembled in India. But manufacturing is a different ball game

Bharat Forge had bought entire 155mm (39 caliber) gun assembly plant from a Austrian and Swiss company and brought it to India. Converting that into 52 caliber should not be a problem. Their Bharat stage 5 gun is based on that.

I will come back to you on TOT issue but all the guns are being procured under Make in India category which lays down that local partners may produce the system in collaboration with a foreign partners or on their own. They must be meeting all conditions to have got orders or the case would be SC.

Bharat Forge can not supply ATHOS unless it is ATHOS - assembled or manufactured meeting laid down conditions. Hence your question and assertions have no meanings.

 

[Vijyes]

Bharat Forge can not supply ATHOS unless it is ATHOS - assembled or manufactured meeting laid down conditions. Hence your question and assertions have no meanings.

I don't think you understand the meaning of manufacturing or the difference with assembling. That is key pint under consideration. I don't understand ho it has no meaning or relevance

 

[Bhadra]

Vajra is assembled in India as Korea refused any TOT for it. Similarly, ATHOS will be assembled in India. But manufacturing is a different ball game

https://www.news18.com/news/india/p...ros-k9-vajra-gun-making-facility-2007781.html
L&T had signed a transfer of technology contract for guns with South Korean company Hanwha Corporation.

https://defense-update.com/20130207...ish-a-jvc-for-artillery-systems-in-india.html

Elbit Systems and Bharat Forge Limited announced today plans to establish a Joint Venture Company (JVC) to address the Indian Ministry of Defence and other potential Indian government customers’ requirements for advanced artillery and mortars systems solutions. in addition to addressing current programs and operationally proven systems the JVC will also address future looking programs, including the Advanced Indian Gun System.

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The JVC will offer solutions in the artillery guns and mortars segment based on Elbit Systems’ operationally proven portfolio, which currently includes systems such as the ATHOS 155/52 Towed Gun System, the ATMOS 155/52 Mounted Gun System and the upgraded 130 mm M46 Gun to a 155/45 Gun (KARAN). The JVC will also role out a range of futuristic products like the Advanced Indian Gun System.
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And I am sick of answering such unfounded and insinuatory questions . Baki Sab chor shout like Rahul Gandhi....

 

[Vijyes]

https://www.news18.com/news/india/p...ros-k9-vajra-gun-making-facility-2007781.html
L&T had signed a transfer of technology contract for guns with South Korean company Hanwha Corporation.

https://defense-update.com/20130207...ish-a-jvc-for-artillery-systems-in-india.html

Elbit Systems and Bharat Forge Limited announced today plans to establish a Joint Venture Company (JVC) to address the Indian Ministry of Defence and other potential Indian government customers’ requirements for advanced artillery and mortars systems solutions. in addition to addressing current programs and operationally proven systems the JVC will also address future looking programs, including the Advanced Indian Gun System.

.............................................................
The JVC will offer solutions in the artillery guns and mortars segment based on Elbit Systems’ operationally proven portfolio, which currently includes systems such as the ATHOS 155/52 Towed Gun System, the ATMOS 155/52 Mounted Gun System and the upgraded 130 mm M46 Gun to a 155/45 Gun (KARAN). The JVC will also role out a range of futuristic products like the Advanced Indian Gun System.
.............................................

And I am sick of answering such unfounded and insinuatory questions . Baki Sab chor shout like Rahul Gandhi....

First let us try to make sense of what are needed for manufacturing an artillery gun:

• Technology and exact specifications of each part of the gun
• Codes and software for the onboard computer
• Chipset and electronic parts with proprietary algorithm & logic
• Exactly same alloy and casting process for barrel

Do you see Israel giving the source codes or the proprietary electronics here? If that is not given, then no matter what, India can't make the exact ATHOS gun but will have to make a modified version of it. Also, getting exact parts manufactured is difficult in small amount of time as it takes lot of time to build factories, call tenders for making each part exactly as per specifications.

So, it is unlikely that India will manufacture ATHOS in India and instead make ATAGS. The reason to buy ATHOS might be politically motivated to chammel funds into Israel for strategic purpose but done in the guise of ATHOS

 

[aarav]

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OK, but ATAGS also is being tested at Pokhran now and it is yet to be tested in other terrain and weather conditions. But DAC has approved procurement of 150 Guns ... How ??

Army has not issues any PSQR or GSQR ?

In all these discussion we are only discussing suitability of each system. It is only Dhanus and ATAGS fanboys who are shouting about numbers and their mantra of "Economy of Scale"... No one is interested in anything else. It is trade Union shout.

In entire discussion no one has even said a word about what shells OFB is manufacturing ? Their adequacy, range and requirements.
No one is interested in fuzes being used / why are these still under import or component import since requirements were spelled out in 1990.
No one says a word on BMC, its adequacy and improvement.
No one has spoken a word about shell course correction systems the Indian Army has issued RFI on about a month ago.
All subjects very closely connected to 155mm Howitzers.

Our so called scientist are using every opportunity to shout "this order should belong to them"... that is the beginning and that is the end of all massages and discussions. No science no technology. Nothing else.

In between they do not hesitate to call names, call one an import agent / dalal / foreign mal. Rajiv Gandhi type shouts.

It is a typical story of "Ye Pajama Mera"...

Current trials of ATAGS are user trials not development trials ,all inducted articles goes through this process even battle tested M777 and K9 vajra or dhanush

 

[Bhadra]

First let us try to make sense of what are needed for manufacturing an artillery gun:

• Technology and exact specifications of each part of the gun
• Codes and software for the onboard computer
• Chipset and electronic parts with proprietary algorithm & logic
• Exactly same alloy and casting process for barrel

Do you see Israel giving the source codes or the proprietary electronics here? If that is not given, then no matter what, India can't make the exact ATHOS gun but will have to make a modified version of it. Also, getting exact parts manufactured is difficult in small amount of time as it takes lot of time to build factories, call tenders for making each part exactly as per specifications.

So, it is unlikely that India will manufacture ATHOS in India and instead make ATAGS. The reason to buy ATHOS might be politically motivated to chammel funds into Israel for strategic purpose but done in the guise of ATHOS

I do not have to see all that when there are far more competent people sitting there in Indian Army and MoD as advised by technical advisory board composed of DODOs.

If the guns are to be procured under make in India category, I presume it meets the conditions.

Your original contention of everyone being dishonest because they are not buying OFB / DRDO product is the most losiest.

Is OFB using source codes of Swedish Bofors in producing Dhanush ? And what source code are you talking about for a simple GPS, inertial navigation for fixing and laying and firing of a gun ? This what is called technical bullshit !!

 

[Bhadra]

Current trials of ATAGS are user trials not development trials ,all inducted articles goes through this process even battle tested M777 and K9 vajra or dhanush

I do not know what you want to say ?
You said, ATHOS has not undergone trails ... I am sure you meant users trails and not development trails ?

Unless you want a gun system to go under development trails when it is operational since so many years in so many countries.

ATAGS is undergoing users trials after DAC decided to order 150 of those.
ATHOS will also undergo users trails after DAC has decided to buy 150 or 200 of those.

Be happy.

 

[Enquirer]

The deal is there for 150 guns so far .... as per reports.
Indian Army requires about 3000 guns which OFB and Bharat Forge (ATAGS) alone will not be able to supply for next 15 years..

By then the howitzers themselves may become extinct ......

Don't get so obsessed with the production capacity alone; you need to consider IA's ability to make annual payments too!!

Tata & L&T each produce about 100 a year...which is 200 in total costing around $1 Billion (a year). Even if Tata & L&T can output 2000 a year IA won't be able to make a payment of $10 Billion in a single year!!