DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

Can DRDO design Artillery able to pass into mass production?


  • Total voters
    389

power_monger

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
642
Likes
653
Country flag
AFAIK it is Kalyani Group of Baba Kalyani. Our headless media is so busy in Creating a fight between NAMO and pappu that they don't even care what they are publishing. Aayoooo pappu chal gya chappooo.
anyways this is a minor mistake. At least you are not seeing a vested article.
 

shiphone

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Messages
2,162
Likes
2,478
Country flag
Manufacturing a part based on a provided blueprint under license doesn't mean you would have ToT for that. Even China does manufacture Al-31F for their J-10. But only recently they were able to create SCB for their WS-15 engine (If I have to believe them).

And please don't bring unrelated things like Aircraft engine in a thread which is discussing about artillery.
LOL ...and pleas don't bring unrelated and terrible wrong 'China' things here.

such stupid claim could only expose yourself how ignorant and self-approbation....

1. we don't manufacture AL-31 serial, china aviation industury and PLAAF arranged two overhaul line for the AL31 engine with the import of Su27SK/J11 project and ALf31fn for J10...we are able to remanufacture all the parts except the 'hot section' which not worth developing the manufacture process with russian raw material.

2. and the CAN-news right days ago..lol. CAN is the official specialty newspapers of aero industury

http://www.cannews.com.cn/2018/1018/183650.shtml

2014年,我国自行研制的第五代含铼高温合金材料、陶瓷基高温涡轮叶片及单晶涡轮叶片项目正式投产,这是我国在航空发动机和工业汽轮机制造领域取得的新突破。目前,我国自主研发的第一代和第二代单晶叶片已经应用于发动机,而三代高温单晶合金也已经应用于发动机上。据介绍,航空发动机叶片相关技术的掌握,意味着我国将大大提高大推重比发动机的生产能力,并将大大提高原有发动机的使用寿命
1st Gen (DD3 etc.) ,2en Gen(DD6,DD405 etc.) High temperature single crystal alloy blade has entered the mass production for the engines.

3rd Gen (such us DD9) SCB is applied on aero engine projects under development which are the WS-15. CJ-1000

5th Gen High temperature single crystal alloy blade begans production in 2014.

BTW, the SCB is also applyed to the industrial turbine manufacture a lot.

 
Last edited:

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,678
Likes
22,543
Country flag
LOL ...and pleas don't bring unrelated and terrible wrong 'China' things here.

such stupid claim could only expose yourself how ignorant and self-approbation....

1. we don't manufacture AL-31 serial, china aviation industury and PLAAF arranged two overhaul line for the AL31 engine with the import of Su27SK/J11 project and ALf31fn for J10...we are able to remanufacture all the parts except the 'hot section' which not worth developing the manufacture process with russian raw material.

2. and the CAN-news right days ago..lol. CAN is the official specialty newspapers of aero industury

http://www.cannews.com.cn/2018/1018/183650.shtml



1st Gen (DD3 etc.) ,2en Gen(DD6,DD405 etc.) High temperature single crystal alloy blade has entered the mass production for the engines.

3rd Gen (such us DD9) SCB is applied on aero engine projects under development which are the WS-15. CJ-1000

5th Gen High temperature single crystal alloy blade begans production in 2014.

BTW, the SCB is also applyed to the industrial turbine manufacture a lot.

Nice to read and good for Chinese aviation industry overall. What I have cited is what have been flowing in media about Chinese industrial espionage saga due to which Russia has not given the ToT for Al31F.

Whereas Chinese developed SCB on their own, we are unable to do so till now even with COMPLETE ToT(!) as per some delusional users here.
 

shaileshmd

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
44
Likes
101
Country flag
I guess the reality check is going to duct tape RG and companies mouth shut for a few days. I am referring to the induction of the self propelled Vajra howitzers and other artillary gun. I am betting one hundred rupees with RG. He will be tweeting following: The South Korean manufaturer paid millions to Mr. Modi to select L&T and build the SP guns in Gujarat. Congress and opposition will urge the SC to investigate the deal. They would like to dismantle the guns completely and rebuild by the PSU gun factory. This will guarantee billions in salaries to the underperforming PSU workers. They will appreciate our efforts and elect RGthe PM!
 

Prashant12

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
3,027
Likes
15,002
Country flag
Indigenous gun trials of the Army to enter next stage by June


The development of the indigenously-designed heavy artillery gun, the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), has advanced to a stage where user-assisted trials of the gun are likely to start by June and the Army has begun finalising the Preliminary Specifications Qualitative Requirements (PSQR), a defence official said.

“Two guns are currently undergoing trials and another two guns will join the trials in a month,” the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said. “User-assisted trials will begin from May-June while the PSQR should be ready by July,” the official added.

The ATAGS is a 155mm, 52 calibre gun being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation on two parallel tracks: one prototype is being built in partnership with Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division), and the other is in collaboration with Bharat Forge. There is a sanction for production of 10 guns as part of the development process.




The Army, which is in the process of drawing up the PSQR that details the essential and desired parameters for the gun, has already flagged a few concerns related to weight and accuracy. The gun currently weighs about 18 tonnes while the ideal weight for the army would be 14-15 tonnes. While the development team wanted the weight, accuracy and firing parameters to be relaxed in the PSQR, the Army has said that would be looked into after the user-assisted trials commence.

The gun has been undergoing development trials for some time now, with a few trials held in the Pokhran firing ranges as recently as last month.

Once the PSQRs are approved, the process for formulating the final Qualitative Requirements would begin. Guns from both Bharat Forge and Tata Power would be evaluated and based on the commercial bids, the order would be split between them with the lowest bidder getting a larger order. The Defence Ministry has already approved the in-principle purchase of 150 of these guns at an approximate cost of ₹3,365 crore.

The gun has several significant features including an all-electric drive, high mobility, quick deployability, auxiliary power mode, advanced communications system, automated command and control system. It also sports a six-round magazine instead of the standard three-round magazine. This necessitates a larger chamber and is a major factor pushing up the overall weight of the system.

The Army, which has been seeking to accelerate the modernisation of its weaponry, recently inducted its first modern pieces of artillery in three decades: the M777 Ultra-Light Howitzer from the U.S. and the K9 Vajra-T tracked self-propelled artillery gun from South Korea.


https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...-enter-next-stage-by-june/article25791046.ece
 

wairoa

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
19
Likes
12
Country flag
Hi all. This is not really on topic, but I notice the K9 Thunder is rather different from the British AS 90 howitzer and also the Singaporean SPH. Does anybody know what this block at the base of the barrel is for? Is it a gun mount or recoil system? Or something else entirely?
Just wondering is all. Thanks

 

Advaidhya Tiwari

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
1,580
Likes
1,448
Hi all. This is not really on topic, but I notice the K9 Thunder is rather different from the British AS 90 howitzer and also the Singaporean SPH. Does anybody know what this block at the base of the barrel is for? Is it a gun mount or recoil system? Or something else entirely?
Just wondering is all. Thanks

I would say that it is gun mount with recoil handling capacity to help in steering of the gun by mechanised motors and to prevent it from collapsing or breaking from the impact of recoil.
 

wairoa

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
19
Likes
12
Country flag
I would say that it is gun mount with recoil handling capacity to help in steering of the gun by mechanised motors and to prevent it from collapsing or breaking from the impact of recoil.
Awesome! Thanks so much for your assistance.
 

Prashant12

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
3,027
Likes
15,002
Country flag
Trials of advanced artillery gun begin in Pokhran range


JAISALMER: India’s first high capacity indigenous long range 155mm/52 gun and Dhanush’s supplement ATAGS (Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System) firing user trials of next stage began from Friday. The trials began at Pokhran field firing range of Jaisalmer district.

The Indian Army has begun finalising the preliminary specifications qualitative requirements (PSQR). Defence Research & Defence Organisation (DRDO) and senior army officers were present at the trials. The gun during its last trials had fired 47.2 kms long distance which was world’s longest distance. Source said that on Friday 48 rounds were fired and on Saturday 12 rounds were fired. Two guns are currently undergoing trials and two more guns will have their trials in a month. The PSQR should be ready by July. Till now there is a sanction for production of 10 guns as part of the development process. The gun currently weighs about 18 tonnes while the ideal weight for the army would be 14-15 tonnes.

Sources said ATAGS is being developed by DRDO on two parallel tracks – one prototype in partnership with Tata Power and another with Kaveri Group (Bharat Forge).

Sources said once the PSQRs are approved, the process for formulating the final qualitative requirements would begin. Guns from both Bharat Forge and Tata Power would be evaluated and based on the commercial bids, the order would be split between them with the lowest bidder getting a larger order. The defence ministry has already approved in-principle purchase of 150 of these guns at an approximate cost of 3,365 crore.

At the moment the firing capacity is being checked on different parameters such as climate, terrain, range accuracy, etc and these guns are performing as per the expectation. The ammunition is also being checked. The gun has world’s longest hitting capacity. The user trials will go on for four more days.

The ATAGS, India’s first indigenous 155mm/52-caliber towed artillery gun will be a joint project of two private-sector corporations. This is a reversal of the usual practice of giving only state-owned companies these kinds of orders.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...t&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst&from=mdr
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
The gun currently weighs about 18 tonnes while the ideal weight for the army would be 14-15 tonnes.


Guns from both Bharat Forge and Tata Power would be evaluated and based on the commercial bids, the order would be split between them with the lowest bidder getting a larger order. The defence ministry has already approved in-principle purchase of 150 of these guns at an approximate cost of 3,365 crore.

Cost per gun = 22.4 Crores
Cost Dhanus - about 14.5 Crore
Cost ATHOS = Said to even less than Dhanus.

 

Vijyes

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2016
Messages
1,978
Likes
1,723
The gun currently weighs about 18 tonnes while the ideal weight for the army would be 14-15 tonnes.


Guns from both Bharat Forge and Tata Power would be evaluated and based on the commercial bids, the order would be split between them with the lowest bidder getting a larger order. The defence ministry has already approved in-principle purchase of 150 of these guns at an approximate cost of 3,365 crore.

Cost per gun = 22.4 Crores
Cost Dhanus - about 14.5 Crore
Cost ATHOS = Said to even less than Dhanus.

That cost per gun includes cost of infrastructure which is one time investment. I don't see how these initial costs can be considered as cost per unit. the long term infrastructure created will be useful for long period of time and used to make thousands of guns in future
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
That cost per gun includes cost of infrastructure which is one time investment. I don't see how these initial costs can be considered as cost per unit. the long term infrastructure created will be useful for long period of time and used to make thousands of guns in future
The cost of development has been paid by the Govt / DRDO, infrastructure for making barrels exists with OFB and Bharat Forge. Bharat Forge has one of the best forging infrastructure in the world. The ability to make mounts and recoil exists with Bharat Forge, TATA and OFB. Electronics and Fire Control system are being provided by DRDO labs. Making electric APU is not a big deal.

So what infrastructures cost ? just a "kutark"... a blind man's stick hitting in dark without an aim and target.

If Indian private industry , DRDO, OFB and DPSUs have to remain in business they have to be competitive rather than doing business with a sense of "doing a favour to the Nation" at exorbitant and uncompetitive costs.

If not, please target Indian govt GFR and DPP to accept DRDO product without any bidding and at any cost whatever. If L1 is a legal requirement it is not a Defence Services or even MoD tool to decide on procurements. It is a requirement of Financial Regulations as laid down by MoF and CAG of India.

The meaning of "indigenous" is economic benefits and not allowing others to exploit us rather than economic losses and blackmailing by Indian institutions like OFB / DRDO. They are enablers and not obstructors. It is perhaps DRDO / OFB abilities to make good 155 howitzers that made Elbit - Bharat Forge to offer ATHOS at a price lower than Dhanus. Those are the benefits and spin offs of "indigenisation".

Khalas !
 
Last edited:

uoftotaku

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
937
Likes
3,544
Country flag
Cost of a long established product in series production using off the shelf components (like Athos / K-9 / Ceaser etc) is always going to be lower on paper than a brand new product like ATAGS with so many new and innovative (ie: unique) technologies (and some off the shelf components yes). Even Dhanush cost is lower because it is based primarily on the FH-77M design so recycles use of many existing components from that line with inherent savings in development and production cost. ATAGS also has NO economy of scale at the moment...same like Arjun, unless major multi-year mass production order is placed, the supply chain especially in pvt industry will never develop and costs will remain artificially high.

A systematic and strategically thought out procurement process will save a LOT of cash in long term...however our myopic annual budget based process simply does not allow for such efforts
 

Aaj ka hero

Has left
Banned
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
4,532
Country flag
Is there Some one who can answer that IMPORT GUY?
Please do.
Comparing a gun that WAS MADE FROM GROUND UP ACCORDING TO THE ARMY NEED with a gun that was not even made here, I don't know what logic and comparison is in it.
 
Last edited:

aarav

जय परशुराम‍।
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
1,408
Likes
5,399
Country flag
That cost per gun includes cost of infrastructure which is one time investment. I don't see how these initial costs can be considered as cost per unit. the long term infrastructure created will be useful for long period of time and used to make thousands of guns in future
Athos doesn't figure anywhere for Indian army or MoD ,only media generated import lobby hype
 

garg_bharat

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
5,078
Likes
10,139
Country flag
Athos doesn't figure anywhere for Indian army or MoD ,only media generated import lobby hype
Report: Elbit to Supply ATHOS 2052 Howitzers to India
https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/38220

Indian media outlets report that Elbit Systems has won a tender to deliver its ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal estimated at over $1 Billion. However, Elbit has not yet notified the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange on such a deal.

My comment: the deal is there.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
Cost of a long established product in series production using off the shelf components (like Athos / K-9 / Ceaser etc) is always going to be lower on paper than a brand new product like ATAGS with so many new and innovative (ie: unique) technologies (and some off the shelf components yes). Even Dhanush cost is lower because it is based primarily on the FH-77M design so recycles use of many existing components from that line with inherent savings in development and production cost. ATAGS also has NO economy of scale at the moment...same like Arjun, unless major multi-year mass production order is placed, the supply chain especially in pvt industry will never develop and costs will remain artificially high.

A systematic and strategically thought out procurement process will save a LOT of cash in long term...however our myopic annual budget based process simply does not allow for such efforts
Your answer clearly shows that you have not read about the joint development project Of ATAGS which has been developed by DRDO and its labs, OFB and Bharat Forge and TATA. All agencies have contributed on components and technologies which was already with them.

ATHOS will be delivered a limited in a limited quantity ex factory and rest will be made in India by Bharat Forge. Coming to think of it ATHOS should have been the costliest because Bharat Forge will have to pay for TOT / share their profits, establish an assembly line and produce indigenous components.

Bharat Forge is the common factor between ATAGS and ATHOS and many other variants that Bharat Forge is working on. However, ATAGS is a joint venture of DRDO, OFB and Bharat Forge. One does not have to estimate velocity of light to know why ATAGS is costly. If DRDO and OFB reduce the cost of their components, I am sure Bharat forge will give ATAGS in lesser prices than Dhanus.

Being the best in its class I also wish that ATAGS be bought in good numbers. For that it has to be lowest bidder. That is the financial requirement.

You or me can argue till cows come home. But that is how public money has to be spend by MoD. Or the honourable SC will decide on the matter.

Kahalas ! :pound::pound::pound:
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
Is there Some one who can answer that IMPORT GUY?
Please do.
Comparing a gun that WAS MADE FROM GROUND UP ACCORDING TO THE ARMY NEED with a gun that was not even made here, I don't know what logic and comparison is in it.
Tu Kon .... Main Khamkhan !!! :crying::crying::crying:
 

Vijyes

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2016
Messages
1,978
Likes
1,723
Your answer clearly shows that you have not read about the joint development project Of ATAGS which has been developed by DRDO and its labs, OFB and Bharat Forge and TATA. All agencies have contributed on components and technologies which was already with them.

ATHOS will be delivered a limited in a limited quantity ex factory and rest will be made in India by Bharat Forge. Coming to think of it ATHOS should have been the costliest because Bharat Forge will have to pay for TOT / share their profits, establish an assembly line and produce indigenous components.

Bharat Forge is the common factor between ATAGS and ATHOS and many other variants that Bharat Forge is working on. However, ATAGS is a joint venture of DRDO, OFB and Bharat Forge. One does not have to estimate velocity of light to know why ATAGS is costly. If DRDO and OFB reduce the cost of their components, I am sure Bharat forge will give ATAGS in lesser prices than Dhanus.

Being the best in its class I also wish that ATAGS be bought in good numbers. For that it has to be lowest bidder. That is the financial requirement.

You or me can argue till cows come home. But that is how public money has to be spend by MoD. Or the honourable SC will decide on the matter.

Kahalas ! :pound::pound::pound:
Who told you that ATHOS will be made in India? All of ATHOS will be imported only. Not even one will be made in india
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
Report: Elbit to Supply ATHOS 2052 Howitzers to India
https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/38220

Indian media outlets report that Elbit Systems has won a tender to deliver its ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal estimated at over $1 Billion. However, Elbit has not yet notified the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange on such a deal.

My comment: the deal is there.
The deal is there for 150 guns so far .... as per reports.
Indian Army requires about 3000 guns which OFB and Bharat Forge (ATAGS) alone will not be able to supply for next 15 years..

By then the howitzers themselves may become extinct ......:daru:
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top