DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

[Armand2REP]

It does not look awkward but works awkwardly. The support is not strong enough and there is big movement to the back whenever it is fired. See youtube video of Caesar firing.

It is all built into the suspension system, once the trajectory is locked it will automatically set where it started.

Transportation wise, I really don't see any reason to transport an artillery over hundreds of km on its own power. India transports such artillery in goods train. For short movement, even ATAGS has APU that can move several kilometres at a decent speed on its own. Caesar in fact is difficult to be transported on goods train due to it being mounted on a truck.

I see plenty of reason to have an air transportable self-contained system that can drive to the action even if it is hundreds of clicks away. All the enemy need do to a train is destroy the tracks. The real advantage is shoot and scoot. You can't fight China with fixed artillery emplacements, not with their counter battery radar. I think even Pakistan has it now.

 

[Kshithij]

It is all built into the suspension system, once the trajectory is locked it will automatically set where it started.



I see plenty of reason to have an air transportable self-contained system that can drive to the action even if it is hundreds of clicks away. All the enemy need do to a train is destroy the tracks. The real advantage is shoot and scoot. You can't fight China with fixed artillery emplacements, not with their counter battery radar. I think even Pakistan has it now.

ATAGS can move a few hundred kilometres on its own. It is just not a truck that can go very long distance.

Caesar is essentially a self-propelled gun. It has all the advantage and disadvantage of a SPG. The main disadvantage is that Caesar is reliant on the engine of the truck to work - either to move the artillery or to give electricity for autoloader.

This means that Caesar requires heavy maintenance and consumes fuel heavily. In warare, artillery is one of the most used guns. In intense wars, each artillery fires a few thousand rounds every day and is active 24 hours in a day. Towed artillery will not consume fuel and hence can last long even without proper supply. SPG however simply dies out after running out of fuel. Also, the autoloader requires lot of maintenance and can break down in the middle of a war (due to heavy usage). Towed artillery like ATAGS has autoloader too but can also be loaded manually. But in case of Caesar, manual loading is difficult due to the height of the platform.

 

[porky_kicker]

Why is ATAGS being compared with Ceaser , they are 2 different systems , ones a towed artillery gun and another one is a truck mounted artillery gun.

After atags passes trials , it will be modified to fit on a truck same as Ceaser and then the truck mounted ATAGS can be compared to Ceaser.

 

[Kshithij]

Why is ATAGS being compared with Ceaser , they are 2 different systems , ones a towed artillery gun and another one is a truck mounted artillery gun.

After atags passes trials , it will be modified to fit on a truck same as Ceaser and then the truck mounted ATAGS can be compared to Ceaser.

ATAGS is not meant to be mounted on trucks. It can't be mounted. It is not just a gun but a system of artillery.

The discussion was about the weight of ATAGS being comparable to Caesar despite Caesar having a truck

 

[porky_kicker]

ATAGS is not meant to be mounted on trucks. It can't be mounted. It is not just a gun but a system of artillery.

The discussion was about the weight of ATAGS being comparable to Caesar despite Caesar having a truck

I read somewhere that ATAGS will come in mounted versions later on, so let's see.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

What's with Dhanush artillery guns nowadays? Any updates?

 

[Armand2REP]

ATAGS can move a few hundred kilometres on its own. It is just not a truck that can go very long distance.

ATAGS cannot move hundreds of kilometres on it's own. It has a small auxilary engine that can be used for positioning.

Caesar is essentially a self-propelled gun. It has all the advantage and disadvantage of a SPG. The main disadvantage is that Caesar is reliant on the engine of the truck to work - either to move the artillery or to give electricity for autoloader.

Caesar does have an APU for power generation and a recovery vehicle to move it if it breaks down.

This means that Caesar requires heavy maintenance and consumes fuel heavily. In warare, artillery is one of the most used guns. In intense wars, each artillery fires a few thousand rounds every day and is active 24 hours in a day. Towed artillery will not consume fuel and hence can last long even without proper supply. SPG however simply dies out after running out of fuel. Also, the autoloader requires lot of maintenance and can break down in the middle of a war (due to heavy usage). Towed artillery like ATAGS has autoloader too but can also be loaded manually. But in case of Caesar, manual loading is difficult due to the height of the platform.

The truck that hauls ATAGS consumes more fuel and with two sets of equipment requires more maintenance. Caesar has proven so versatile it has not only been used and sold all over the world, we are even using it to replace our tracked artillery systems as well.

If you are facing an enemy with counter battery radar, you cannot leave your artillery in fixed positions. That only works for counter insurgency operations.

Caesar is only partially auto-loaded, if it breaks down you just do it manually like everything else.

Why is ATAGS being compared with Ceaser , they are 2 different systems , ones a towed artillery gun and another one is a truck mounted artillery gun.

After atags passes trials , it will be modified to fit on a truck same as Ceaser and then the truck mounted ATAGS can be compared to Ceaser.

That goes to the original point of the system weight.

 

[Pandeyji]

ATAGS cannot move hundreds of kilometres on it's own. It has a small auxilary engine that can be used for positioning.

While 100s of km is a stretch the weapon is capable of moving 6km on it's own power based on the official figures alone.

 

[Armand2REP]

While 100s of km is a stretch the weapon is capable of moving 6km on it's own power based on the official figures alone.

And the purpose of that is to do what exactly? If there is incoming counter battery fire it will not move you far or fast enough to avoid it. It has to be reattached to the transport vehicle which takes too much time. It is too heavy to be slung to a helicopter.

 

[Pandeyji]

And the purpose of that is to do what exactly? If there is incoming counter battery fire it will not move you far or fast enough to avoid it. It has to be reattached to the transport vehicle which takes too much time. It is too heavy to be slung to a helicopter.

The speed is good enough for shoot & scoot

 

[Armand2REP]

The speed is good enough for shoot & scoot

It isn't even walking speed...

 

[Pandeyji]

It isn't even walking speed...

This is not ATAGS. It is Bofors

 

[sthf]

Caesar 155mm is 18t, truck included. I think they need to do more weight reduction if the gun weighs as much as an entire SPG.

And the purpose of that is to do what exactly? If there is incoming counter battery fire it will not move you far or fast enough to avoid it. It has to be reattached to the transport vehicle which takes too much time. It is too heavy to be slung to a helicopter.

You are comparing two different platforms on the basis of weight not roles.

1) ATAGS or Dhanush will have a mounted variant to fulfill same role as Caesar. Initial requirment is of 814 units. Caesar doesn't carry same amount of ammunition as a dedicated artillery tractor.

2) The reason IA wants more towed guns in lieu of SPH because lesser number of moving parts means lower maintainance and downtime.

3) No professional army uses arty without proper tactics. In case of towed guns, batteries use pre designated spots to establish new firing positions. APUs are there not just to reposition but also to move between these spots. Shoot and scoot still applies, especially when ATAGS outranges every single towed gun and most SPH by some margin.

4) There is absolutely no need for ATAGS to be air mobile. IA has M777 for that and if things go according to plan, will be supplimented by Bharat Forge ULWH in much larger numbers.

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But I agree that ATAGS should lose weight. Not because it needs to but for DRDO and private sector to pat themselves on the back. Its not everyday these guys get to bask in the glory.

 

[Armand2REP]

This is not ATAGS. It is Bofors

They use the same Volvo engine so it would actually go slower than this as it weighs more.

 

[Pandeyji]

They use the same Volvo engine so it would actually go slower than this as it weighs more.

ATAGS is twice a fast as Bofors when on APU

 

[Armand2REP]

1) ATAGS or Dhanush will have a mounted variant to fulfill same role as Caesar. Initial requirment is of 814 units. Caesar doesn't carry same amount of ammunition as a dedicated artillery tractor.

There are auxiliary vehicles that carry reloads.

2) The reason IA wants more towed guns in lieu of SPH because lesser number of moving parts means lower maintainance and downtime.

Are you sure it is less parts? There are plenty of parts on that gun, it looks more automated.

3) No professional army uses arty without proper tactics. In case of towed guns, batteries use pre designated spots to establish new firing positions. APUs are there not just to reposition but also to move between these spots. Shoot and scoot still applies, especially when ATAGS outranges every single towed gun and most SPH by some margin.

You have no more than 90 seconds from the time you fire to the time you need to be out of the zone. At the rate that APU moves it is not going to be out of danger.

4) There is absolutely no need for ATAGS to be air mobile. IA has M777 for that and if things go according to plan, will be supplimented by Bharat Forge ULWH in much larger numbers.

If it isn't air mobile then it needs to be remounted to its transporter within 60 seconds.

 

[Armand2REP]

ATAGS is twice a fast as Bofors when on APU

Bofors only weighs 11.5t, ATAGS is 18t so how is that possible?

 

[Kshithij]

ATAGS cannot move hundreds of kilometres on it's own. It has a small auxilary engine that can be used for positioning.



Caesar does have an APU for power generation and a recovery vehicle to move it if it breaks down.



The truck that hauls ATAGS consumes more fuel and with two sets of equipment requires more maintenance. Caesar has proven so versatile it has not only been used and sold all over the world, we are even using it to replace our tracked artillery systems as well.

If you are facing an enemy with counter battery radar, you cannot leave your artillery in fixed positions. That only works for counter insurgency operations.

Caesar is only partially auto-loaded, if it breaks down you just do it manually like everything else.



That goes to the original point of the system weight.

Yes, ATAGS can move a few ten kilometres on its own at about 12kmph speed. Sorry for saying 100 km.

Sure, the truck that tows ATAGS consumes more fuel but the cost of the truck is saved. One truck can haul in several artillery. Also, fuel consumption of Caesar is high while operational as the Caesar is mostly automated and can't fire shells without the truck engine giving energy. Caesar may have APU but that is not enough to power it for long. Caesar can't be used manually as several things like the positioning of the barrel, the hydraulic lift to lift the truck are all automated without any manual ability. ATAGS can be used manually and hence can be fired till last shell is expended.

Next, Artillery is fired in bulk, not in a few numbers. So, shoot and scoot is not as easy as you tend to say. Shoot and scoot works in tanks, ATGM etc but in artillery, it is generally difficult.

There are auxiliary vehicles that carry reloads.



Are you sure it is less parts? There are plenty of parts on that gun, it looks more automated.



You have no more than 90 seconds from the time you fire to the time you need to be out of the zone. At the rate that APU moves it is not going to be out of danger.



If it isn't air mobile then it needs to be remounted to its transporter within 60 seconds.

The mobile artillery has its own use while advancing the position as the artillery can move with the team. But, mostly, artillery is used holding a position and causing massive destruction to opponent's position.

Towed artillery have much fewer moving parts that are compulsorily needed. The ATAGS does have some automation but all of them are optional. So, chances of breakdown or fuel being emptied in the middle of a battle is less.

 

[Pandeyji]

Bofors only weighs 11.5t, ATAGS is 18t so how is that possible?

http://idrw.org/advanced-towed-artillery-gun-system-atags-will-go-for-army-trials-from-mid-of-2017/

Sometimes things are possible. Although the article is an old one when many details were not known. But what is true is that the APU is significantly advanced as compared to the BOFORS Haubitz

 

[Armand2REP]

Yes, ATAGS can move a few ten kilometres on its own at about 12kmph speed. Sorry for saying 100 km.

If ATAGS weighed 12t it could possibly do 12km/h with 95kW. At 18t it isn't going to go any faster than the 7km/h of the Bofors. It is 50% overweight.

Sure, the truck that tows ATAGS consumes more fuel but the cost of the truck is saved. One truck can haul in several artillery.

There is one truck for each artillery piece. They do not make round-trips delivering one at a time.

Also, fuel consumption of Caesar is high while operational as the Caesar is mostly automated and can't fire shells without the truck engine giving energy.

It is run by the APU that charges a battery pack. If the APU fails you can hook up anything to charge it and keep it running or bring in another battery pack which is kept in reserve.

Caesar may have APU but that is not enough to power it for long. Caesar can't be used manually as several things like the positioning of the barrel, the hydraulic lift to lift the truck are all automated without any manual ability.

There is a manual mode with a hand crank for elevation and traverse. The two spades can be positioned by hand levers that operate like a tire jack if the hydraulics fails.

ATAGS can be used manually and hence can be fired till last shell is expended.

So can Caesar, pretty sure they all do that. That is why the Americans cancelled their future artillery system, too complex if something failed.

Next, Artillery is fired in bulk, not in a few numbers. So, shoot and scoot is not as easy as you tend to say. Shoot and scoot works in tanks, ATGM etc but in artillery, it is generally difficult.

You can do it by helicopters...


By SPG truck...


By SPG tracks...


By transporter vehicle...

The mobile artillery has its own use while advancing the position as the artillery can move with the team. But, mostly, artillery is used holding a position and causing massive destruction to opponent's position.

I can't stress this enough... if you don't move... you DIE.

Towed artillery have much fewer moving parts that are compulsorily needed. The ATAGS does have some automation but all of them are optional. So, chances of breakdown or fuel being emptied in the middle of a battle is less.

ATAGS is just as complex as any truck mounted SPG, it is the same except it isn't mounted on the truck.