DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

[Adioz]

OFB gun and ATAGS both have Bofors FH77 type loading. While Bofors have 3 round burst, ATAGS have 6 round burst.

Kalyani have shown intent to have Elbit's Magazine loading system, I don't know If Army is happy with that but they did mention that they are looking for auto-loader, could be a more automatic loading system than what FH77 Bofors offers.

Here you can see the difference, TATA gun is vanilla FH77 loading, Kalyani gun has Elbit loader.

I just don't like the fact that no one is thinking about indigenising the subsystems (or maybe they are and we just don't know about it?). The orders for this gun are going to be sizable (~1800+exports). And the technology involved is not all that complex. So I don't see why these companies don't want to invest in the R&D required. Its funny that most critical components are Indian designed. How hard can it be to manufacture a 6 round magazine? This same technology they can use to make a range of weapons with Mounted Gun systems to Self-propelled howitzers.

 

[Trololo]

Still no answers about OFB made Dhanush which was failing due to Muzzle Break issues. This is otherwise a very reliable and cheaper gun. It is as effective as any in its category.

OFB was short changed by German company with Chinese ownership who procured the part from a substandard shop in China and put a 'Made in German' name tag.

On a sidenote I feel Dhanush will see substantial exports to Afghanistan and other CIS countries.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

read that First line , 50km with base bleed .



i think bharat forge ATAGS is superior & costly , we dont need that advanced system at every place so to reduce cost Desi TATA product will be manufactured too .

I believe that both the guns are almost same. Why baba kalyani gun is costly? Does it have any special feature?

 

[WolfPack86]

155 mm/ 52 ATAGS howitzer is set for user assisted technical trials in June 2018 and user trials in September 2018. Two new production level prototypes will be used for these trials.

 

[Pandeyji]

Confirmed by Sandeep Unnithan. ATAGS could strike upto 55 km in himalaya. Both the guns fired winter trials too.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...in-india-military-hardware-1176002-2018-02-22

 

[Guest]

Confirmed by Sandeep Unnithan. ATAGS could strike upto 55 km in himalaya. Both the guns fired winter trials too.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...in-india-military-hardware-1176002-2018-02-22

Key points.

Production units of both manufacturers will have ability to churn out 1000 guns each by 2021, so 2000 gun in total.

DRDO and private developers want the army to place orders for at least two regiments: 40 guns for Rs 900 crore to be split between its private producers. This order, developers say, will provide the impetus to create manufacturing depth in the country and two gun production lines ready to churn out 1,000 guns each by 2021.

The target of DRDO is to achieve 60km range with this gun, nearly double of original FH77 Bofors.

Developers argue that the DRDO's SQRs are actually a quantum jump over the army's parameters for the imported towed artillery guns. ATAGS is aiming for ranges of close to 60 km, nearly double that of the first Bofors guns. It has all-electric drive as opposed to hydraulic drive, which means it can work at high altitudes without fears of the hydraulic liquid freezing.

Both prototypes shot out shells to a distance of 47 km at the Pokhran test ranges in Rajasthan. This is the distance between New Delhi and Gurugram, a world record for their class of howitzers which usually fire a shell to around 40 km. In the thin air of the mountains, its designers say, the shells can easily achieve a 25 per cent range addition.

Well that would be some distance.

The Indian army's Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP), approved in 1999, aims to equip its 169 artillery regiments (one regiment has 18 guns) with over 3,000 155 mm howitzers-towed, tracked, self-propelled, wheeled and ultra-light-by 2025. This Rs 50,000 crore plan is still decades away from realisation, but recent developments suggest it may finally be on track.

169 155mm artillery regiments, I see the requirement shooting higher for a two front war scenario, so 3000 howitzers are not enough. Hopefully MoD and Army has these things in mind.

Army red flags issues,

The army has flagged several issues in ATAGS, which is why they say they are not ordering the gun yet. The gun weighs 20 tonnes, nearly 70 per cent over its 12-tonne weight limit. The weight restrictions are because most bridges in the mountainous forward areas are designed to bear 18-tonne loads. On the plains, too, the added weight can lead to mobility issues because the army's 6x6 artillery towing trucks are designed for 12-tonne guns. Inducting ATAGS in its present form would mean more investments in heavier trucks. The imported towed artillery pieces, they point out, weigh only 15 tonnes. The weight issue, the army points out, flows from the DRDO increasing the gun chamber's capacity-where the shell is actually ignited-from 22 litres to 25 litres. A larger chamber meant higher pressure and thus greater range but it increased the weight. It is also yet to demonstrate sustained firing "like an automatic rifle", an army officer says. "What we now have is the gun firing in single shot mode, like a bolt-action rifle."

What developers have to say.

The developers say they plan to shave two more tonnes off the gun to bring its weight down to 18 tonnes. Besides, they say, the four-wheeled ATAGS is far more stable than the two-wheeled imported guns. The gun's advanced capabilities like the six-round automated magazine, which can fire a six-round burst in 30 seconds, are still under development and will come in subsequent prototypes.

I think they are being conservative with ~18 ton figure, If there's a proper order of ~2000 guns, then aluminum alloy, and titanium can be used to further lower a couple of ton to ~16 ton figure. ~12 ton is a bit cruel on Army's part for a 27 liter chamber 52 cal, howitzer with 6 round magazine capability.

In spite of the red flags on weight, I see a world beater gun, Guns like these means only one thing, you are not even safe at your Brigade head quarters. As Napoleon the father of fire by maneuver warfare has said, The God is on the side with the best artillery, and here my friends is the best artillery gun in the world.

I just don't like the fact that no one is thinking about indigenising the subsystems (or maybe they are and we just don't know about it?). The orders for this gun are going to be sizable (~1800+exports). And the technology involved is not all that complex. So I don't see why these companies don't want to invest in the R&D required. Its funny that most critical components are Indian designed. How hard can it be to manufacture a 6 round magazine? This same technology they can use to make a range of weapons with Mounted Gun systems to Self-propelled howitzers.

Indigenisation will happen when full scale production starts, this gun(OFB) will be exported most probably to Arabs, but before that happens it has to be proven in our Army first. Domestic orders alone can convince the interested parties. Since no one would like to invest on production line and increase the cost of the guns they would buy.

What DRDO and manufacturers need to do is sit together and make truck mounted versions of all these guns, and finally a tracked and wheeled SPH, version. This can be done, and It will certainly add more value to this platform and meet our requirements as well.

 

[Adioz]

Confirmed by Sandeep Unnithan. ATAGS could strike upto 55 km in himalaya.

The target of DRDO is to achieve 60km range with this gun

Army red flags issues,

Seriously? Is there no indigenous arm that the Army will be impressed with? Ever?

But what rounds are they using to achieve such awesome ranges? If this is what ATAGS has achieved without using rocket-assisted projectiles, what range will they achieve with RAP? 90km?

I kind of expected a higher range from the winter trails because its a known fact that at high altitudes with lower density, arty achieves higher ranges due to lower air friction. But I never expected this kind of range. And DRDO is targeting 60 km?

exported most probably to Arabs,

To hell with them. Only sell ATAGS to friendlies that are likely to remain friendly to us in the long term. Like Vietnam or Japan. The rest can make do with Dhanush.

 

[binayak95]

Key points.

Production units of both manufacturers will have ability to churn out 1000 guns each by 2021, so 2000 gun in total.



The target of DRDO is to achieve 60km range with this gun, nearly double of original FH77 Bofors.





Well that would be some distance.



169 155mm artillery regiments, I see the requirement shooting higher for a two front war scenario, so 3000 howitzers are not enough. Hopefully MoD and Army has these things in mind.

Army red flags issues,



What developers have to say.



I think they are being conservative with ~18 ton figure, If there's a proper order of ~2000 guns, then aluminum alloy, and titanium can be used to further lower a couple of ton to ~16 ton figure. ~12 ton is a bit cruel on Army's part for a 27 liter chamber 52 cal, howitzer with 6 round magazine capability.

In spite of the red flags on weight, I see a world beater gun, Guns like these means only one thing, you are not even safe at your Brigade head quarters. As Napoleon the father of fire by maneuver warfare has said, The God is on the side with the best artillery, and here my friends is the best artillery gun in the world.



Indigenisation will happen when full scale production starts, this gun(OFB) will be exported most probably to Arabs, but before that happens it has to be proven in our Army first. Domestic orders alone can convince the interested parties. Since no one would like to invest on production line and increase the cost of the guns they would buy.

What DRDO and manufacturers need to do is sit together and make truck mounted versions of all these guns, and finally a tracked and wheeled SPH, version. This can be done, and It will certainly add more value to this platform and meet our requirements as well.

Atleast this time the army's red flags sound practical and not too ahead of the curve. But seeing how far the ATAGS have come, we can be reasonably sure about its future, especially since the MoD just ordered LSP to begin.

 

[Guest]

Atleast this time the army's red flags sound practical and not too ahead of the curve. But seeing how far the ATAGS have come, we can be reasonably sure about its future, especially since the MoD just ordered LSP to begin.

The problem with Army is that their demand is sometimes unrealistic, try to ask a foreign manufacturer to give you the range of 60km, weight of 12 tons and automatic firing of 6 rounds.

Even global, 23liter guns(ATAGS has 27liter which gives the long range) who don't have automatic fire, some of them have of 3 round burst, their guns weigh 15 tons. They should settle with manufacturer's offer of 18 tons, And buy some good trucks to tow these guns, Can't have laddu in both hands. We have already seen what has become of foreign procurement drama.

To hell with them. Only sell ATAGS to friendlies that are likely to remain friendly to us in the long term. Like Vietnam or Japan. The rest can make do with Dhanush.

I was talking about the OFB gun Dhanush, It also has larger chamber volume @25liter, compared to 23liter of most foreign guns, which gives a good range of about ~40km(38km at sea level) and high accuracy. ATAGS can fire nuclear shells, so I about it would be exported.

 

[Prashant12]

DRDO 155/52 mm ATAGS howitzers in high altitude trials in Sikkim, Jan 2018. Bharat Forge’s G-2 prototype (L), Tata Power SED’s G-1 (R).

 

[sthf]

Usual pooh poohing by Army. Weren't Dhanush 45 and 52 to be used in the mountains?

 

[Prashant12]

Indigenous artillery gun passes high-altitude winter test in Sikkim


PUNE: The month-long winter trials of the indigenously-developed 155mm/52 calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) have achieved the desired results, an official from the Defence Research and Development Organisation has said.


The weapon system is a joint effort by the DRDO and the private sector.

The trials were conducted by a group of scientists from the city-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and army officers at an elevation of 11,000 feet in Sikkim. “Scientists and soldiers tested the gun in extremely cold conditions. It delivered positive firing results even in -20 degree Celsius,” the DRDO official said. The official said the gun’s mobility, a crucial factor in high-altitude warfare, was favourable too. “All mobility parameters were checked during the trials,” the official said. Last year, the gun’s desert trials were held from August 24 to September 7. Results from these trials were positive too.

The ATAGS has an allelectric drive, which is better than traditional hydraulic drives of other towed guns. The electric drives of the ATAGS allows better control while opening and closing of the breech mechanism and while ramming the next round into the firing chamber.


Sources added that the gun is expected to become a part of the Indian Army by the year 2020.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...inter-test-in-sikkim/articleshow/63360623.cms

 

[Abhi9]

Corrupt army officers... nothing else . Just want commissions. You cannot change an inferior mindset that takes its inspiration from british left over and still celebrate british traditions, hang their pictures in their halls. Same britshers to killed more than11 millions documented indians ,What else to expect from these royal ass wipes. Nothing indian will ever be good to then. Stop wasting time to research for them and let them feed to jawans that our sciencedaans cannot give good products , while they they are the ones who scuttle every thing desi

 

[Armand2REP]

They should settle with manufacturer's offer of 18 tons, And buy some good trucks to tow these guns,

Caesar 155mm is 18t, truck included. I think they need to do more weight reduction if the gun weighs as much as an entire SPG.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Like Vietnam or Japan.

What shall japan do with this gun?

 

[Pandeyji]

Caesar 155mm is 18t, truck included. I think they need to do more weight reduction if the gun weighs as much as an entire SPG.

Cesar also has only 42km firing range and 4-6 rpm capability (probably no burst firing too).

Apples & Oranges

 

[Kshithij]

Caesar 155mm is 18t, truck included. I think they need to do more weight reduction if the gun weighs as much as an entire SPG.

ATAGS:
AtAGS during transportation:

ATAGS when firing

Caesar:

The caesar is a bit awkward and the truck has to be lifted off air so that it does not move back due to recoil.

ATAGS also has a APU and is fully capable of moving around on its own but is also capable o being towed over long ranges. This is advantageous in terms of cost. Also, the awkwardness and recoil related error can be significantly reduced.

The ATAGS has reinforced barrels that can withstand higher pressure and hence the range is over 47km at low altitude. At higher altitude, it will be above 50km. Caesar has about 40km range as it is having a lower pressure barrel. In addition, ATAGS also has a magazine system for rapid fire. I am not sure if that is the case with Caesar. This adds a lot of weight to ATAGS.

 

[Armand2REP]

Cesar also has only 42km firing range and 4-6 rpm capability (probably no burst firing too).

Apples & Oranges

More like Lemons & Limes

ATAGS:
AtAGS during transportation:

ATAGS when firing

Caesar:

The caesar is a bit awkward and the truck has to be lifted off air so that it does not move back due to recoil.

ATAGS also has a APU and is fully capable of moving around on its own but is also capable o being towed over long ranges. This is advantageous in terms of cost. Also, the awkwardness and recoil related error can be significantly reduced.

The ATAGS has reinforced barrels that can withstand higher pressure and hence the range is over 47km at low altitude. At higher altitude, it will be above 50km. Caesar has about 40km range as it is having a lower pressure barrel. In addition, ATAGS also has a magazine system for rapid fire. I am not sure if that is the case with Caesar. This adds a lot of weight to ATAGS.

That is all well and good, but at the end of the day transport equation rules. Who cares if it looks awkward? It works is all that matters.

 

[Kshithij]

More like Lemons & Limes



That is all well and good, but at the end of the day transport equation rules. Who cares if it looks awkward? It works is all that matters.

It does not look awkward but works awkwardly. The support is not strong enough and there is big movement to the back whenever it is fired. See youtube video of Caesar firing.

Transportation wise, I really don't see any reason to transport an artillery over hundreds of km on its own power. India transports such artillery in goods train. For short movement, even ATAGS has APU that can move several kilometres at a decent speed on its own. Caesar in fact is difficult to be transported on goods train due to it being mounted on a truck.

 

[Kalki_2018]

ATAGS can be bought down to 18 tonnes but otherwise shortfall can be made up with Dhanush. Cesar is a mounted gun system other two are Towed hence not really the same. I hope there is a ATAGS based MGS like TATA had done with Denel.