Do we deserve Jana Gana Mana as our National Anthem???

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Bhushan, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    you have kids?!! :O

    are you saying that vande matram is difficult to sing compared to jana gana mana, therefore jana gana mana should be the national anthem? maybe you only heard the AR Rahman version of vande matram, but I find vande matram really melodious when the kids sing in schools(only few schools). it takes the song to whole new level. and vande matram is more melodious than the mechanichal jana gana mana.
    so, vande matram scores both on meaning and melody.
     
  2. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    With regards to you Johnee, I would like to say that Poet Tagore is our national poet, I think we should respect him while writing his name.

    Vandematarm which is in sanskrit literary means that I pray to my mother ( Vande= I pray Mataram = To my mother) here mother means our motherland.


    Vandemataram was authored by Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay in Anandamath, his famous novel in 1882, which was source of inspiration of our National Struggle.

    More of Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay from Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankim_Chandra_Chattopadhyay

    Regards
     
  3. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    Yo! that's the pride of Jana Gana Mana; it shows the origin of mother india and its land and people historically. If you wouldn't know the deep historic of your nation, there's no way you can appreciate what you have today. Just because due to the wheel of karma, sindh no longer part of india doesn't mean you can completely forget that it once used to be part of this great nation that you are living in. That's why the great scholar always says, know the existing of your country & culture and nobody can take that away from you. Law can be change but history shouldn't, it always remain the same. These words of the great scholars are always useful when some idiots try to take over your nation down the road. You can say; "look idiot the words of these great saints are the proof of my nations existence." I guess this is the one reason Jana Gana Mana is so special, it goes beyond the the people and place but shows the pride of its special connection with the lord of creator. I'm surprised you still hasn't yet figure out who this lord was.

    :(
     
  4. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    No I don't have kids! But we all will someday!
    And please think beyond just melodious. I've lots of other melodious that i would love to sing but they are not good enough to be national anthem. Words are stronger then melodious that's why it was the winner as we all know. I'm glad every school in northern india sings the national anthem that i like. Now the matter is closed. We're the winner<3
     
  5. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    My dear Johnee here is the link you can find the about lord:

    http://homepages.udayton.edu/~chattemr/janaganamana.html

    I totally agree with you Shy, in the site above mentioned where our national Poet Tagore speak his heart.


    Regards
     
  6. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    A very good post. only drawback of your arguement is that you have overlooked the fact that jana gana mana doesnt really say anything about our pride, history or ppl. it mentions some places of british india and wants a lord to rule it. not just jana but even mana. so, firstly emphasising the regions more than the union of india. secondly, eugolising some lordship.

    you want to believe that the lord the jana gana mana mentions is the lord creator himself, you are welcome. but the poem itself doesnt offer any such clarity.
    vande matram was the rallying cry of our struggle for independence. it captured the hearts and minds of ordinary indians to struggle against a foreign rule. vande matram should have been rightfully the national anthem. but out of respect and awe for shri shri shri Rabindranath Tagore(pintuji note the respect), his poem was made a national anthem.
    just like pandit nehru became the PM of india though sardar Patel would have suited better, similarly jana gana mana became the national anthem of india though vande matram would have suited the better.
     
  7. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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  8. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

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    Mods please close this thread!
     
  9. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    pintuji,
    actually that link provided proves my point. shri shri shri Rabindranath Tagore was asked to write a poem to welcome George V by some gora under the 'queen'. and RabindranathJI wrote the jana gana mana. he did not immediately refute that when it was mentioned by newspapers. but later expressed his 'angst and anguish'. he said he wrote it for lord creator and not some lowly 'human lord'.
    do you really buy this?
    the fact of the matter is he wrote a poem to welcome a gora when he was asked to do so. whatever he might say later, it is assumed that when he mentions a 'lord' in his poem for the gora's welcome, he was referring to gora.

    the great poet that rabindranath tagore was, he just put a spin on the whole thing becoz he didnt mention George V with name or title. so, he conveniently tried to change the whole context. lastly, I request you and others not to be blinded by national pride and look at history objectively.
    sure, rabindranath tagore was a great poet and human being. perhaps none of us could even imagine or measure his genious and his greatness. but he is still human and is prone to pressure.
    he was put in a tight spot by britishers and he obliged them. everything else said was a later spin added to save H&D.
     
  10. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    I second you Venkat , I think this thread needs closure.

    Regards
     
  11. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    The day I was born, I was tough only big big things. So the way I look at things and the way you look at things are totally different. So there's nothing I can do to change that. You don't see the things I do and neither do I see the things you do. And world certainly doesn't revolve around neither of us. Forget about Nehru and Sardar Patel!!!!! This is not the matter of ordinary indians vs unordinary indians. It's about the greatness of motherland that we all indians can enjoy its freedom and the pride of it. So you are either welcome to join in to celebrate it or you choose to reject it. It's your choice. But remember only you who sees unordinary and ordinary indians, not me. So at this point its your fault for not liking Jana Gana Mana not Rabindranath Tagore's poem.
     
  12. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    All this While, None of the people wanting to change our national anthem written by our National Poet, could bring in a Valid Reason to do so. Only Conspiracy Theories galore.

    We had Good Replies and Articles posted by the people for the National Anthem, but I didnt see anything worth a dekho by the team against it. I suggest someone say something more relevant and which will Substantiate their Claims, or else this thread can be closed.
     
  13. S.A.T.A

    S.A.T.A Senior Member Senior Member

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    Making a mountain out of molehill is a peculiar Indian trait and more often than not we end up damaging ourselves....

    There is no doubt that "Vande Mataram" will always be marked by history as the one and only national song of India,because of its sheer impact on the national freedom movement.But its disgusting to see why anyone would want to slur the national anthem......

    If you only need controversy,Vande mataram could easily be construed as referring to Queen Victoria,this is how stupid this controversy looks............

    And please remember that even vande Mataram was first sung at the all Indian session of the Indian national congress in 1896,so even "Vande Mataram" was sung for the congressmen(suck that!) and it was the INC which adopted it as the 'Deshgaan'.........

    The one and only perhaps reason why the vande Mataram as whole was not adopted as a national anthem was because its obvious Hindu religious imagery that is invoked throughout the poem.Its reasonable to think that the founding fathers were worried about this aspect,esp since the country had just witnessed communal bloodbath the kind the nation had never seen before in the run up to and right after the partition.....

    Much ado about nothing !
     
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  14. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    firstly, I want to clarify that I have not wanted to insult my national anthem at any point in this discussion. if I did slur MY national anthem, I am ashamed and beg your pardon.
    I have utmost respect for my national anthem and I have always had it from the time I have been singing it everyday at my school since the age of 5.
    but I still stand by my point that vande matram was better suited to be india's national anthem. for its inclusive reverence to entire bharat mata rather than parts of it. also, it was the slogan which inspired millions of indians in the struggle for independence. so, I feel it was robbed of that special status that only a national anthem can enjoy.

    anyway, this discussion seems to be taken very seriously by many members and it seems to have caused a lot of uncomfort as well. which has resulted in personal taunts on me. if that be the case, then plz lock the thread. but I would think that open and objective debated would have been welcome. I am disappointed.
     
  15. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    Well Said! We Indians are fans of the Molehill! Makes me think of some people from the Muslim Community who didnt want to sing Vande Mataram and made a big controversy out of it!! We should get over this attitude.
     
  16. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    I dont think anyone Taunted you particularly Johnee. Please Report Such posts if you come across them for Moderation.

    Our National Anthem is a Serious matter, hence views expressed against it has to have a certain level of "Standing"! One cannot come in here and say anything against it and Expect to be heard! We are all for Free Speech, but then, bring in something Substantial. God Speed.
     
  17. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    firstly, this is just a debate and I hope that ppl would not be blinded by patriotism and at the same time I hope that no one takes anything posted against jana gana mana as a slur of national anthem. it is not. secondly, irrespective of wat shri rabindranath tagore's interpretation was, jana gana mana is our national anthem. it has grown beyond shri guruji. today it represents the love, affection, and respect of millions of indian for their motherland. hence, questioning the original context of the song should not be taken as degrading the song.



    firstly the general meaning that ordinary ppl can interpret of jana gana mana is:


    O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people[8]
    Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, the Maratha country,
    in the Dravida country, Utkala and Bengal;
    It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
    it mingles in the rhapsodies of the pure waters of Yamuna and Ganga
    They chant only thy name.
    They seek only thy auspicious blessings.
    They sing only the glory of thy victory.
    The salvation of all people waits in thy hands,
    O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people
    Victory to thee, Victory to thee, Victory to thee,
    Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory to thee!

    now, who is this thou? who is being referred to in these lines as the ruler of minds of ppl of india?
    for this lets go into the context. words acquire a new meaning when we look at them in right context.
    the context:

    I would like to present the exact meaning of the song which is translated by Guruji Rabindranath Tagore himself and the adopted version of the Indian Constitution. Have a look at this:

    Thou art the ruler of the minds of all people, dispenser of India's destiny.

    The name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sind, Gujurat and Maratha. Of the Dravid and Orissa and Bengal.

    It Echoes in the hills of Vindhyas and Himalayas, mingles in the music of Yamuna and Ganga and is chanted by the waves of the Indian Sea.

    They pray for your blessing and sing thy praise. The salvation of all people is thy hand, thou dispenser of India's destiny. Victory,

    Victory, Victory to thee.


    In the original Bengali verses only those provinces that were under British rule, i.e. Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat ,Maratha etc.were mentioned. None of the princely states were recognized which are integral parts of India now Kashmir, Rajasthan, Andhra, Mysore or Kerala.Neither the Indian Ocean nor the Arabian Sea was included, since they were directly under Portuguese rule at that time. When you sing Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka, whom are you glorifying? Certainly not the Motherland. Is it God? The poem does not indicate that. basically, guruji did not clarify at that time. but later spins were put on by 'devotess of guruji' to show that guruji could never sing paean for an englishman! and tried to pass off the whole thing by explaining that the lord he refers to is some obscure 'lord of destiny of india'. never heard of that 'lord' anywhere else!
    also,even though the song was written and sung to welcome george V, we are still supposed to believe that the song had absolutely nothing to do with him or his visit but had some higher 'spiritual meaning'! well, IMVVVVHO, I am unable to fathom such bizzare explanation


    The song Vande Mataram and its translation in English:

    Vande Mataram
    sujalaam
    suphalaam
    malayaja sheethalam
    shashya shyamalaam
    Maataram, vande maataram
    Shubhra jothsana pulakitha yaminim
    Phulla kusumitat drumah dala shobhinim
    Suhasinim, Sumadhura bhAshinim
    sukhadaam varadhaam, maataram
    Vande mataraam


    VANDE MATARAM
    SUJALAM SUPHALAM
    MALAYAJA SEETALAM
    SASYA SHAMALAAM MATARAM
    VANDE MATARAM


    SHUBRA JYOTSNAA
    PULAKITA YAMINIM
    PULLAKUSUMITA
    DRUMADALA SHOBHINIM
    SUBHASHINIM
    SUMADHURA BHASHINIM
    SUKHADAAM VARADAAM
    MATARAM
    VANDE MATARAM


    SAPTA KO TI KAN THA
    KALAKALANINAADA
    KARALE DWISAPTA KO TI BHUJAI
    RDHR^ITAKHARA KARAVAALE
    ABALAA KENO MAA ETO BALE
    BAHUBHALADHARINIM
    NAMAAMI TAARINIM
    RIPUDALA VARINIM
    MATARAM
    VANDE MATARAM


    TUMI VIDYAA, TUMI DHARMAA
    TUMI HRIDI, TUMI MARMA
    TUM HI PRANAAH SHARIIRE


    BAHUTE TUMI MAA SHAKTI
    HRIDAYA TUMI MAA BHAKTI
    TOMARAA I PRATIMAA GADI
    MANDIRE MANDIRE


    TVAM HI DURGAA
    DASHA PRAHARA NADHAARINI
    KAMALA KAMALADALA VIHARINI
    VANI VIDHYADAYINI NAMAAMI TVAM
    NAMAAMI KAMALAAM,
    AMALAAM, ATULAAM
    SUJALAAM SUPHALAAM MATARAM
    VANDE MATARAM


    SHYAMALAAM SARALAAM
    SUSMITAAM BHUUSHITAAM
    DHARANIM BHARANIM
    MATARAM
    VANDE MATARAM

    My obeisance to Mother India!
    With flowing beneficial waters
    Filled with choicest fruits
    With Sandal scented winds
    Green with the harvest
    O mother! My obeisance to you!
    Ecstatic moonlit nights
    The plants blooming with flowers
    Sweet speaker of sweet languages
    Fount of blessings,
    Mother, I salute you!


    Mother, I bow to thee!
    Rich with thy hurrying streams,
    bright with orchard gleams,
    Cool with thy winds of delight,
    Dark fields waving Mother of might,
    Mother free.


    Glory of moonlight dreams,
    Over thy branches and lordly streams,
    Clad in thy blossoming trees,
    Mother, giver of ease
    Laughing low and sweet!
    Mother I kiss thy feet,
    Speaker sweet and low!
    Mother, to thee I bow.


    Who hath said thou art weak in thy lands
    When the sword flesh out in the seventy million hands
    And seventy million voices roar
    Thy dreadful name from shore to shore?
    With many strengths who art mighty and stored,
    To thee I call Mother and Lord!
    Thou who savest, arise and save!
    To her I cry who ever her foeman drove
    Back from plain and Sea
    And shook herself free.


    Thou art wisdom, thou art law,
    Thou art heart, our soul, our breath
    Thou art love divine, the awe
    In our hearts that conquers death.
    Thine the strength that nerves the arm,
    Thine the beauty, thine the charm.
    Every image made divine
    In our temples is but thine.


    Thou art Durga, Lady and Queen,
    With her hands that strike and her
    swords of sheen,
    Thou art Lakshmi lotus-throned,
    And the Muse a hundred-toned,
    Pure and perfect without peer,
    Mother lend thine ear,
    Rich with thy hurrying streams,
    Bright with thy orchard gleams,
    Dark of hue O candid-fair

    In thy soul, with jewelled hair
    And thy glorious smile divine,
    Loveliest of all earthly lands,
    Showering wealth from well-stored hands!
    Mother, mother mine!
    Mother sweet, I bow to thee,
    Mother great and free!

    so guruji was against vande matram as national anthem! he was infact critical of it. infact, he was the one promoting vande matram as not suitable for national anthem as it has 'religious undertones'. but where is the religious undertone? just the mention of the words durga and lakshmi make it a religious song? is the core hymn addressed to durga or mother india?
    it is clear that the song is only glorifying india as a feminine power by addressing it as a mother. further, durga is a symbol of feminine energy while lakshmi is a word thats often used to represent wealth and wellbeing in sanskrit.
    so, when guruji was against vande matram as national anthem and if he had hoped that instead jana gana mana written by him should be the national anthem, how difficult would it be for a genius like him to offer a different interpretation/translation to suit indian sensibilities? anyway, mole to some and moutain to some others.
    but any objective listener without patriotic pretensions would be able to see that words like sujalaam, suphalaam, malayaja sheethalam, shashya shyamalaam are more apt to describe and praise the motherland then the words like adhinayaka jaye he or bharata bhagya vidhata......


    so, one thing must be clear jana gana mana was chosen over vande mataram only becoz vande mataram was considered as a song which compared mother india to a HINDU goddess durga by Jawaharlal Nehru. that is vande mataram was a victim of appeasement politics, but still that appeasement politics couldnt stop the partition of india on religious lines. but we continue to appease in the hope that it will suffice. alas, the irony!

    exactly my point, sir. the one and only reason vande mataram was not adopted as national anthem: appeasement..........

    again, an objective analysis of the context or original meaning of jana gana mana is not to degrade or debase our national anthem. plz dont take is as a slur. it is not meant to be offensive.
     
  18. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    Gosh. All this makes me glad we aren't British. Imagine the horrible arguments over "God save the Queen".
     
  19. jackprince

    jackprince Turning into a frog Senior Member

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    To add my 2 cent to the topic. When I was a kid, about 12-13 yr. old - one of my teachers told me about the controversy and how this song was meant to glorify English king etc etc. Well, he also told me how Gandhiji was a worthless leader and Mr. Nehru was a scum etc. So you see at that age which by the way I know now as a very impressionable age and about to rebel against everything that is accepted - I not only accepted , i became very vocal about it. And thank god that I did, that's why later when I spoke of my conviction to another teacher of mine he told me what sort of garbage I was fed.

    He told me (by the way he was my literature teacher and quite a leaned fellow) that jano Gano Mano can be translated in Many way. And he told me to consider one vital thing, if that particular song was accepted by the learned members of our people who fought and led the people to their independence. Why would they even consider this song as National anthem if it was anyhow tainted? So, to the believer of the controversy I have only one question - neither philosophical, spiritual or patriotic , just a rational question IMO, WHY? There had never been scarcity of songs - heck Tagore himself wrote plenty enough other songs which could have been selected and which are full of national feelings and pride!

    My teacher told me asked me that if I could consider 'Adhinayak' to be The God or the spirit of India? I couldn't but accept. Whatever anybody might have translated it into, I believe Tagore invoked the Spirit of India through this song.

    P.S. Vande Mataram is one of the very special song, that whenever I hear the song I get a surge of feelings; and it's unfortunate for some idiots it wasn't my national anthem. Vandemataram gives such a beautiful praise to our motherland, which Jano Gano Mano falls short compared to it. We used to sing the song in our KG school to primary level.
     
  20. jackprince

    jackprince Turning into a frog Senior Member

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    :rofl:

    In other word Spirit of India. The National spirit 'Rule's a nation, just as your spirit is what makes you, you. The national spirit leads to the destiny of a nation. Don't go for literal meaning - don't forget he was a poet not essayist.

    'coz other Princly state hardly if ever was part of National freedom movement. I'm not sure about the dates, but isn't it much later, probably a decade after the Indian independence, the princely states were annexed? Some joined and some was annexed by Mrs. Gandhi? (I'd love a bit history lesson here ;)) So, in 1911 when it wasn't even sure when and how India would get freedom, how could Tagore figure that whether or not the Princely states would be in the free India?

    Mentioning ocean was important?!!! I have known a few creative poet-type people; and never seen them making chart or blueprint of a poem.
     

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