Do the Bahmins deserve the infamy?

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Mad Indian

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How come you concluded that I am playing victim-hood?

Let me give you an example. I come from a poor Brahman family, and same is case with other families in my village. But, my Dad with sheer hard work , and intelligence , not only supported his family from very young age , but also gave up his pleasures to get into civil service. Their were others , who didn't cared for such work and they are now paying for that same mistake.

You see , it is not only the "education and economic status" , which you think higher caste are born in , but also the hard work they do that put up them in those higher place.



P.S: I support reservation , but primary beneficiaries among SC/ST need to be rationalized , else real ones are getting sidelined.
Sigh. I already had a detailed conversation on this with @Bangalorean on why it is needed.

Anyway I will ask you this, is there any discrimination in colleges/jobs on the basis of economic inequality as there is on the basis of castes? That is, are the rich professors discriminating against poor students vs the rich students. If not reservation on basis of economics is meaningless.

Reservation is not meant to be for "economic mobility " but rather "social mobility" . both are not the same. Tamil nadu is the most socially mobile state in India and precisely why you will see SCs being the biggest castists here. This is what I am talking about. Every caste group should be equally represented in the govt(medical eng MBA govt colleges are all part of it, so are the bureaucracy and the govt jobs in govt banks). If not, one caste group will dominate the other and it will be shit for every other group involved.


Do you honestly think if the reservation is based on economic, it will be representative of the people? It will only result in upper caste domination in all the jobs and it will be disastrous for everyone else.

P.S: I support reservation , but primary beneficiaries among SC/ST need to be rationalized , else real ones are getting sidelined.
:lol: upper castes have nothing to gain(at least directly) by creamy layer in SCs/dalits/OBC and still ask for it. Why? I mean the supposed biggest beneficiaries of the creamy layer- SC is actually against it. Why?

Because it is precisely what I was talking about and is exactly antithetical to the original idea of reservation social mobility. A person having job as a post office is not the same level of social mobility as the person having a job as a district collector. So if your idea of "proper implementation" is implemented, SCs will get their reservations, use it to become a postman and die and his son will forfeit the quota and would compete in general quota. Meanwhile, an upper caste student, whose father is already a district collector will compete with him on general quota. Are you going to claim with a straight face that both are at equal level of advantage?

A poor dalits' son should be given reservation for making him a post man, post man's son should be given a reservation for making him a IAS collector. Collector's son should be given reservation for making him a Secretary , and secretary's son should be given a reservation for making him a chief secretary . this is social mobility and this is important for distribution of power equally among all castes. If we adopt your version of reservation, then the poor dalits would become post man over and over again and none will make it to the top of the power structure

This is what upper castes want when they talk about creamy layer or economic reservations. And how is that fair.


Upper castes imprisoned a group of people and locked them out of education and access to work and good lively conditions for several centuries and expect them to be on the same playing field as them just after a few decades of reservation and that too a half baked one? Who do they think they are fooling?

PS: Dont think I am saying you are a castist. i am just stating what I observed in general regarding the Anti- Reservation propagandists.
 
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Mad Indian

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All people from non-SC/ST/OBC castes are the victims of reservation

Nonsense. No body is a victim of anything. Its all upper caste propaganda.

Present reservation is fine, specially after 27% obc reservation in central govt jobs/institutes.


If anything, the only problems with present reservation is its end game. I would have wanted more reservations for inter caste marriages which would have meant slow death for castes but unfortunately that's not what we have. But otherwise, its OK.

Its loads better than the alternative these castists suggest anyway which is that there would be no reservation and every field will be dominated by upper castes alone and we will return to pre independence level of caste discriminstion
 
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Mad Indian

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I will ask again, if the brahmins here can prove with evidence that they are under represented for their % of population in any important field, I will change my stance on reservation and will buy their nonsense that they have been victimised by reservation .

Till then its all castist hot air and propaganda
 

Nicky G

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Life isn't fair and while I am not convinced any reservation will make it anymore fair, the larger issue for me will always be vote bank politics which is used to divide Hindu vote along caste lines for the 'secular' parties to win. Anyone who lives in India will face the consequences of if sub-par parties come to power.

For my part, I am a baniya, a sufficiently talented one to be have succeeded in the system, reservations or not. So that could well be a small reason that I don't care about reservations.

Anyone here asking whether baniyas have suffered? :tongue:
 

Abhijat

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@Mad Indian , you didn't care to answer my primary question , but written a reply with many presumptions

So if your idea of "proper implementation" is implemented, SCs will get their reservations, use it to become a postman and die and his son will forfeit the quota and would compete in general quota
Why do you think a SC would only be able to get to the level of a postman and not to an IAS ? .

an upper caste student, whose father is already a district collector will compete with him on general quota
And you presumed this too , that an upper caste is definitely someone who is born with silver spoon ?

A poor dalits' son should be given reservation for making him a post man, post man's son should be given a reservation for making him a IAS collector. Collector's son should be given reservation for making him a Secretary , and secretary's son should be given a reservation for making him a chief secretary .
And competence/skill doesn't matter , if they are given equal platform [which I assumed they have, if they are of second/third-generation learner]

Upper castes imprisoned a group of people and locked them out of education and access to work and good lively conditions for several centuries and expect them to be on the same playing field as them just after a few decades of reservation and that too a half baked one? Who do they think they are fooling?
Social discrimination is real and present , I do accept that .

But , it can be tackled in two different methods :

1. One, by providing for reservation , as per present policy
2. Secondly, by providing special facilities that can help to develop talent and skill from early age.

First, was the option we had chosen at time of independence, as we were not economically strong enough to provide for all .

But, as of now we are strong enough to go for second one, which provides for more equal playing field within the social discriminated group.

Do you think , groups like Meena , which are one of the most numbered in Civil Services at the state level in Rajasthan, deserves ST quota , when their are more deserving group then them ?

And more so , social mobility comes from economic mobility , and the group which had enjoyed their economic standing due to quota needs to free the same for others in their same group.

BTW, inter-caste marriage is the only feasible solution which I can think of this menace in our society.
 

maomao

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Brahmins have in in the line of fire since islamic invasions as they were seem as the strongest pillar standing in the way of islamisiation in Hindus (as they were the priestly class and cutodians of the Hindu faith)! Hence, the genocide of Brahmins by invading islamic hordes! Then came the british and their own theories and demonizing Brahmins to destroy & divide Indian society and latter came the slaves of the west secularists and leftists, they took anti-Brahminism to a different disgusting level, however failed big time as Hinduism evolved and their anti-brahmin rants fell flat....nowadays no one gives an ear to someone who starts a conversation / debate with something like '........this Brahmnical system oppresses blah blah blah blah'.....immediately people spot a leftist self-proclaimed intellectual.
 

punjab47

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As numerous posts show & you continue to ignore, millenia of war made life in India hard for everyone.

You just want to destroy the upper caste, because you're a black monster on a tangent lol.

But, if someone's been you master for centuries don't you seem them wising up? You're putting yourself in a worse position long term.

Simply because most Hindus period are not beggars, which is all you are.

Instead of wanting cultural unity you want a communist revolution, so you can feel morally superior to your white christian peers.

Machine guns on the streets of India mow down thousands of poor women & children wherever your so-called flag of democracy and Christianity flies

- Shaheed Udham Singh Kamboj (dalit)
75 years ago on Secular/Equality/Christianity

Get mad nerd.

SSA.
 

punjab47

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You must be mental, if you think anyone anywhere in the world is throwing shoes at Sardars.

People like you are lynched by christians in Nagaland lol.
 

asingh10

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Educational System During Pre-British Days

We may here also quote the testimony of Brigadier-General Alexander Walker who served In India between 1780 and 1810. He says that "no people probably appreciate more justly the importance of instruction than the Hindus". According to him, "they sacrifice all the feelings of wealth, family pride and caste that their children may have the advantage of good education". He also found that this love of learning was no exclusive characteristic of the Brahmins but "this desire is strongly impressed on the minds of all the Hindus. It is inculcated by their own system, which provided schools in every village." He adds that the "spirit of enquiry and of liberty has most probably been effected by the soodors [Shudras] who compose the great body of population, and who were in possession of the principal authority and property of the country".

The data shows that the female education was very much neglected though it was not altogether absent. Certain regions like Malabar and Joypoor in Vizagapatam made a better showing then other areas. In these regions, we also find that the Shudras did better in the matter of female education than the upper class Hindus including the Brahmins. In the Punjab, according to Leitner, "female education is to be met in all parts". According to him, the Punjabi woman has not only been "always more or less educated herself, but she has been an educator of others". He tells us that even before the annexation of the Punjab, six public schools for girls in Delhi were kept by Punjabi women.
There is a popular notion that education in India was monopolized by the Brahmins; but the data destroys this myth completely. This interested lie was first spread by the missionaries and the British rulers and the colonized mind of many Indian intellectuals still continue to sing their tune. But the data reveals a different story. It tells us that out of the total number of 175,089 students, both male and female, elementary and advanced, only 42,502 were Brahmins (24.25%); 19,669 were Vaishya students (about 11%); but 85,400 were Shudras (about 48.8%); and still 27.516 more were "all other castes", meaning castes even lower than the Shudras including the pariahs (15.7%). Thus the higher castes were only about 35% and the Shudras and other castes were about 65% of the total Hindu students. If we also include the Muslims who were about 7% of the total Hindu and Muslim students, then the share of the Brahmins was even less.

We have a table showing the caste-wise division of all male school students, both in absolute numbers and in percentage, of all the 20 districts of Madras Presidency. The data shows that the share of the Brahmins in certain areas was indeed very low. For example, in Seringapatam, it was only 7.83% in Madura 8.67%; in North Arcot, Brahmin boys were 9.57%, while the Shudras and "other castes" were 84.46%.

Even in higher learning, non-Brahmins were not unrepresented. In Malabar, out of 1,588 scholars of Theology, Law, Astronomy, Metaphysics, Ethics and Medical Science, only 639 were Brahmins, 23 Vaishyas, 254 Shudras and 672 "other castes". Only in the Vedas and Theology did the Brahmins have a near-monopoly, as the Shudras and the "other castes" had in other branches of advanced learning like Astro-nomy and Medical Science. In Astronomy, out of a total of 806 scholars, Brahmins were only 78, Vaishyas 23, Shudras 195, and other lower castes 510. In Medical Science, the share of the Brahmin scholars was only 31 out of a total of 190. The rest belonged to the Shudras and "other castes".
Source: ON HINDUISM Reviews and Reflections by Ram Swarup, Chapter 7

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ohrr/ch07.htm
 

Mad Indian

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Why do you think a SC would only be able to get to the level of a postman and not to an IAS ? .
SCs will become IAS officers, just not in the numbers reflecting their population. Not until, the distance in the difference of living standards between upper castes and them reduces.

And you presumed this too , that an upper caste is definitely someone who is born with silver spoon ?
Compared to what most SC students face, the upper castes "ARE" born with a silver spoon.

And competence/skill doesn't matter , if they are given equal platform [which I assumed they have, if they are of second/third-generation learner]

Competence and skills are Nonsensical words in this context . for instance ,do you give two votes for college graduate and one vote for a village illiterate? No . because we have to ensure every one is equally represented in the government .


The idea of reservation is essentially the same. Since India is a socialist shithole , all the positions of bureaucracy are strong parts of the government. Hence the quotas for different castes so that they are represented in the government(bureaucracy, jobs, and educational institutions which will train them for those jobs).

Besides, let's give them quotas for the same no. of years they have been kept under the heels. Then we will know the true capability .

But , it can be tackled in two different methods :

1. One, by providing for reservation , as per present policy
2. Secondly, by providing special facilities that can help to develop talent and skill from early age.
This just says that you have no understanding of why reservation exists in the first place. This was/is/never will be about skills /knowledge. Its always about proper representation into the government.


First, was the option we had chosen at time of independence, as we were not economically strong enough to provide for all .

But, as of now we are strong enough to go for second one, which provides for more equal playing field within the social discriminated group.
:lol: Equal playing field... It is not going to happen for another two decades, forget today

And more so , social mobility comes from economic mobility , and the group which had enjoyed their economic standing due to quota needs to free the same for others in their same group.
Bull shit. Social mobility is nothing like economic mobility.

Example: I earn 20000rupees /month today as a auto driver. If my son earns 200000 rupees per month after twenty years as an auto drover, my family is economically mobile. I would no longer be poor. But still I would be an auto driver. There is no social mobility Here.


If I earn 20000 Rs. /month today as an auto driver and twenty years down the road, my son becomes an IAS officer. Even if he earns less money than 20000rupees, my family would be socially mobile.

This is what I meant by social mobility.


Hell even economic mobility of lower castes would be difficult in the present socialist economic climate with no reservations. How the hell would SCs move up on economic mobility when the means of economic mobility,.ie economy is controlled by bureaucrats who would all be overwhelmingly upper castes without reservation?

We have not achieved social mobility despite 60 years of reservations. And I have no reason to believe removing reservations will do it now. TN is probably the only state in India where the power share is fair and that is all due to reservations. May be we will also be the first state to end it too, because of what we have achieved. Looking at TN, may be the present problem with rest of India is that rest of India does not have enough reservation.

BTW, inter-caste marriage is the only feasible solution which I can think of this menace in our society.
Yes. And I would be happy if some govt introduces schemes to encourage it.

Finally, caste discrimination came first and not reservation. So if you want the reservation to end, we need to end the discrimination. Getting rid of reservation before ridding ourselves of discrimination is like killing the doctor to cure the disease.
 
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Screambowl

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Nonsense. What do you mean Indian govt does not support poor? Are you living in mars to not know about PDS, mnrega , subsidised fuel, agri subsidies, and the bs yojanas?

You can count the Indian govt assistance on Indian poor vs the poor of USA without the govt aid and still the usa's poor would be loads better off than Indian poor.

Gini index , or the index for income inequality is higher for USA than India .you said inequality should be dealt with. So based on that argument alone,given a choice, where would you be rather poor as? India or USA .and don't change goal posts this time. Give a straight answer.

What should be dealt with is poverty through economic growth. Not income inequality. I would much rather have a India where the rich are trillioners and poor are millioners than in a India where there is no rich or poor and everyone is a poor begger equally . This is just socialistic crap all over again which India cannot afford



This is the single dumbest sentence I have read today. So why is there immigrstion to usa from india when USA has a gini index of 0.41 vs gini index of India 0.33


This just proves my point that most of the right wingers in India are clueless leftists in a closet
Of course it is better to be a poor Brahmin in US than in India. Because even if you qualify exam you wont get a seat in India!

you have to segregate poors too in the name of caste . So a brahmin who is poor is actually poor. Because he will be given what is left over. If left over to be precise.
And fellows talk about equality. BS!!

My point said!! :)
 

Mad Indian

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Of course it is better to be a poor Brahmin in US than in India. Because even if you qualify exam you wont get a seat in India!

you have to segregate poors too in the name of caste . So a brahmin who is poor is actually poor. Because he will be given what is left over. If left over to be precise.
And fellows talk about equality. BS!!

My point said!! :)

:rofl: more bs victimhood. I dint segregate poors into castes your ancestors did.

Anyway, contrary to your bs victimhood propaganda, SCs have a higher poverty line, have a poorer representation in govt/bureaucracy/jobs and brahmins have the least poverty rates for any caste group among Hindus.

So cry me a river until any one of you present me with data that you are actually under represented for your % of population.

And don't forget that OBCs form 50% of India. You can never get rid of caste reservations without OBC backing. Crocodile tears are not gonna win you any sympathy anywhere.
 

Screambowl

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:rofl: more bs victimhood. I dint segregate poors into castes your ancestors did.

Anyway, contrary to your bs victimhood propaganda, SCs have a higher poverty line, have a poorer representation in govt/bureaucracy/jobs and brahmins have the least poverty rates for any caste group among Hindus.

So cry me a river until any one of you present me with data that you are actually under represented for your % of population.

And don't forget that OBCs form 50% of India. You can never get rid of caste reservations without OBC backing. Crocodile tears are not gonna win you any sympathy anywhere.
And I am doing it again because our constitution does it too. ;)

Poverty does not come by looking at some one's caste or blood now days. In capitalistic economy or socialist economy, the terms have changed. It is constitution which decides who gets what and how much from state's bank.

caste is the factor which decides opportunity in India. And opportunity and poverty are directly proportional.

This drama of ancient ancestors of brahmins and rajputs did not allow SC ST to raise, is no more valid in free market and capitalistic economy.

Britishers already looted many so called rich brahmins and rajputs. So one has to think properly in which century they are living.

It is upto ST and SC to decide. They still feel they are in the same old era but it is not.
 

Screambowl

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punjab47

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I think we should change name of India to different river of random state every year.

It's not fair that India is named after Indus & Vedas written in Beas.

I think we should also move temples around,

WHY SOME CASTIST PUNJABI BE ABLE TO SAY THAT ALL GURUS & DEVTAS ARE MOSTLY FROM HIS STATE?

UN-EQUAL
UN-EQUAL
UN-EQUAL
Famine Famine Famine
Massacre Massacre Massacre (purge)

How progressive

Ksytrias Dies protecting weak & poor
Shudra dies protecing weak & poor
Bramin hides & raises their children

How backwards

--
I think for one year North Indians should have to wear tar, & S Indians get fair & lovely supply.

Media told me light skin is good & dark bad,

THAT IS UN EQUAL

Bro, next year rat should eat cat

& We should let apple & corn eat human.

EQUALITY EQUALITY EQUALITY

----
Bro, I honestly want to stop posting here but your communist rants are so funny I have to keep feeding you.


 
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Abhijat

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Example: I earn 20000rupees /month today as a auto driver. If my son earns 200000 rupees per month after twenty years as an auto drover, my family is economically mobile. I would no longer be poor. But still I would be an auto driver. There is no social mobility Here.


If I earn 20000 Rs. /month today as an auto driver and twenty years down the road, my son becomes an IAS officer. Even if he earns less money than 20000rupees, my family would be socially mobile.
Are you even reading what you are writing ?

Again, do tell , If I am earning Rs 20,000/month , I would provide for my children's education , so that he/she can compete without any restrain . Why do you think such child would not be able to compete equally with , some one from upper-caste ?

And you do need to study about "affirmative action" , I suggest , NCERT class 11'th Political Theory Chapter on Equality.

P.S: Shouldn't Muslims be demanding the same "equal representation" on basis of their numbers. Then it will only be a number game, where each community will try to hold it's social position by sheer numbers and would NEVER want to loose it's share of pie.
 

pmaitra

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Is reservation unjust?
From an atomic point of view, yes. From a holistic point of view, no.

Personally, reservation should remain; not forever, but for the time being.

To the main point though, Brahmins do not deserve this infamy. They have been traditionally at the top of the hierarchy, but they were not necessarily the primary perpetrators of injustice.

Vengefulness is not going to be helpful in building an inclusive society. Reservation also should be extended to economically challenged candidates, even if they are from the traditionally privileged castes.
 

punjab47

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Mad Indian

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Want to add one more thing about my state (AP) Majority land holders are REDDY caste.During my college days many reddy's took scholarships based on 'INCOME CERTIFICATES' father occupation :Farmer Income 10,000.BTW each family holds minimum 30+acres :rofl:
Well atleast in AP they are considered upper castes. Here in TN, they are considered as OBCs :biggrin2:
 

Mad Indian

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But HOW MANY UPPER CASTE'S want to FIGHT RESERVATION in these type JOBS as per their 20% share in population. GOI must reserve 20% SANITARY JOBS for UPPER CASTES.I hope upper castes like Brahmins must fight for their right to clean TOILETS :rotfl:
And that's why their crocodile tears has no takers among the well informed ones
 
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