Did Communism and Stalin save the world from Nazism ?

pmaitra

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Communism and Nazism are 2 sides of a coin. In reality they never got along. Both are against the primary human right of freedom of speech. Nazism is out but now communism needs to be wiped out.
I have three questions for you:
  1. How would you justify that communism is against primary human right of freedom of speech? (We will discuss whether it is the primary right or secondary later.)
  2. Could you cite examples of a few countries that you think guarantee freedom of speech?
  3. How would you propose to wipe Communism out?
 
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pmaitra

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Despite my previous posts in this thread, it dawned on me that I have yet to answer the original question:



First, I consider the question itself to be flawed, because it equates Stalin with "communism". Strictly speaking, Stalin and communism are unrelated, as Stalin did not create the communist ideology as Hitler, for example, created the Nazi ideology. Stalin merely took advantage of an existing system and used it to further his own means, even if it meant bastardizing the original ideology. Stalin's general policy in the USSR cannot be considered "communism"; rather, I refer to Stalin's general policy as "totalitarian collectivism".

Now, to answer the question itself, it was not Stalin nor the Soviet system that saved the world from Nazism; in fact, both those things probably hurt the Soviet Union more than they "helped". What really allowed the Soviet Union to win was the willpower and sacrifices of the average Soviet citizen, the unique geography of the Soviet Union, the industrial capacity of the Soviet Union, and a determined and highly-motivated High Command.

Of these four factors, Stalin and his system were responsible for only one: the wide-scale industrialization of the USSR prior to WWII.
Aptly put.

IMHO, equating Communism with Totalitarianism and obfuscating the fact that Communism is antipodal to Capitalism and propagating that Communism is antipodal to Democracy has been the common propaganda of the West, primarily the NATO countries.
 

pmaitra

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I think threads could be opened to discuss both nazism and stalinist communism separately.
Good idea. This thread has potential to derail into a broader perspective, but I would like this interesting discussion to continue. Maybe we can open a thread where the topic will be broad enough and the relevant posts from here can be replicated or simply moved to the other thread.

I think, there are enough posts to answer the basic question of this thread although no concrete conclusion has been reached, but enough information is available for any individual to come to his conclusions. I would not recommend closing this thread yet.
 

Phenom

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I would like to ask you in particular and everyone in general: If it hadn't been for an authoritarian man like Stalin but a democratic man like Gorbachev, would the USSR have succeeded in defeating the Germans?

Once we satisfactorily answer this question, we can shed a lot of light on whether USSR would have fared better had it not been for Stalin.
Pmaitra,
that's a question no one can give a credible answer to, but IMHO, If the democratic leader was someone like Churchill then it would have fared better, but if it was someone less determined then it would not have.
 

pmaitra

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Pmaitra,
that's a question no one can give a credible answer to, but IMHO, If the democratic leader was someone like Churchill then it would have fared better, but if it was someone less determined then it would not have.
True, a definite answer is virtually impossible.

Consider this: Churchill was great with winning the war, but for India, he was a disaster. UK could not have won without India, yet they could not manage food shortages and famines in India, political repression apart, which were to a large extent responsible for UK losing India altogether. On the other hand, USSR too had so many republics, yet they managed to relocate their factories, absorb a casualty of 26 million, preserve the USSR, gain territories, defeat Germany and not only that, create the Eastern Bloc or Warsaw Pact. I doubt if Churchill's achievements come even halfway to what Stalin had achieved.
 

amoy

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Communism once was a strong ideology globally with Stalin as its icon then. Before/During WWII the ideology had been motivating across borders many to unite against Nazism the arch Sadan. The internationaire faith was as important as Samurai in inspiring people to fight on. In Far East --

* the most famous Soviet spy Solger and Wazaki(Communist, secretary to Japan PM Fumimaro Kono) sent back the strategic intelligence to Moscow that Japan would march southward instead of attacking Soviet Union. That enabled Stalin to pull precious forces from Far East to Stalingrad.

* on 12Dec 1936 Chiang Kai-shek was detained by revolting KMT forces who wanted to turn their gun to external invaders. Many leaders of CCP and even inside KMT intended to try Chiang and even sentence him to death. It was Stalin and Comintern with his strategic insight who advised CCP comrades to form a joint front against Japanese with KMT and release Chiang. After putting an end to China's civil war all Chinese factions were able to join hands against Japanese for the 1st time. This was of vital importance for WW2. Just imagine the massive forces in million that were mired in China Japan could have poured on Soviets and the nightmare for Stalin to combat on 2 fronts should China had fallen totally?? A weak but resisting China absorbed much of Japan's land forces, like Chiang said "u can eat China bit by bit, like a worm, but u can't gulp it whole down'.

* The ideology also attracted many foreigner to help China, such as Dr. Kwarkanath S. Kotnis and Jews like George Hatem。 Ever late leader of N.Korea Kim Il Sung was a commander in CCP guerrilla in Manchuria (later retreating to Soviet). He along with many Koreans in exile joined CCP.

Overall speaking Communism and Stalin effectively tied "comrades" together towards the victory over Nazi by securing the Far East front. If one agrees Nazi is far " worse" then he was indeed a saviour.
 

Scalieback

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Re: Right wing extremism.

For all the nazi (national socialist) lovers out there: New Order (Nazism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hitler's plans for India

Further information: Indische Legion and Azad Hind

Hitler's views on India were disparaging.[57] He considered the British colonial rule of the subcontinent as an exemplary one and intended the German rule in the occupied East to resemble it.[57] Hitler thought little of the Indian independence movement, declaring the freedom fighters of being racially inferior "Asiatic jugglers".[57] As early as 1930 he spoke of the Indian freedom movement as the rebellion of the "lower Indian race against the superior English Nordic race", and that the British were free to deal with any subversive Indian activists as they liked.[58] In 1937 he told the British Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax that the British should "shoot Gandhi, and if this doesn't suffice to reduce them to submission, shoot a dozen leading members of the Congress, and if that doesn't suffice shoot 200, and so on, as you make it clear that you mean business."[58] Nazi ideologist Alfred Rosenberg stated that although the Vedic culture was Aryan in origin, any Nordic blood had long since been lost due to racial mixing.[57] Like Hitler, he viewed the British rule in India as being desirable.[57]

During the first years of the war in Europe, as Hitler sought out to reach an arrangement with Britain, he held the notion that India should remain under British control after the war, as in his mind the only alternative was a Soviet occupation of the subcontinent.[57] As Britain had rejected German peace offers, Hitler ordered on 17 February 1941 to prepare a military study for a post-Barbarossa operation in Afghanistan against India.[43] The goal of this operation was not so much to conquer the subcontinent, but to threaten British military positions there to force Britain to come to terms.[43] A week later the Afghanistan operation was the subject of a discussion between head of the Army General Staff Franz Halder, Oberbefehlshaber des Heeres Walter von Brauchitsch and chief of the Operationsabteilung OKH Adolf Heusinger.[59] In an assessment produced on 7 April 1941, Halder estimated that the operation would require 17 divisions and one separate regiment.[59]

Indian revolutionary Subhas Chandra Bose escaped from India on 17 January 1941 and arrived in Berlin via Moscow.[60] There he proposed organizing an Indian national government in exile and urged the Axis to declare their support for the Indian cause.[60] He eventually managed to extract such promises from Japan after the Fall of Singapore and later on from Italy as well, but the Germans refused.[58] Bose was granted an audience with Mussolini, but Hitler refused to see him, although he did acquire access to Joachim von Ribbentrop after much difficulty.[58] The German Foreign Ministry was sceptical of any such endeavours, as the German goal was to use Bose for propaganda and subversive activity, especially following the model of the 1941 pro-Axis coup in Iraq.[61] These propaganda measures included anti-Raj radio broadcasts and the recruitment of Indian prisoners of war for the "Free India Legion".[62] Bose eventually met with Hitler on 29 May 1942.[63] During the discussion, which mostly consisted of Hitler monologuing to Bose,[58] Hitler expressed his scepticism for India's readiness for a rebellion against the Raj, and his fears of a Soviet takeover of India.[63] He stated that if Germany had to do anything about India it would first have to conquer Russia, for the road to India could only be accomplished through that country,[58] although he did promise to financially support Bose and help relocate him to the Far East.[63] Bose later described the encounter by stating that it was impossible to get Hitler involved in any serious political discussion.[58]

On 18 January 1942, it was decided that the Indian subcontinent was to be divided between the Axis powers. Germany was to take the part of British India which is today approximately Pakistan, while the rest was marked for Japan.[64]
New Order (Nazism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Although pursuing an alliance based on Realpolitik with Imperial Japan in the battle against the "Western Plutocracies" and Soviet Bolshevism, the Nazi leadership ultimately considered this cooperation only temporary in nature. The racial ideology of Nazism predicted that the fate of human civilization depended on the ultimate triumph of the Germanic-Nordic peoples, and in fact the populous Asian continent was seen as the greatest threat to hegemony of the white race. The Japanese people were characterized as 'culture-bearers', meaning they could make use of the technological and civilizational achievements of the Aryan race and by so doing maintain an advanced society, but could not truly create 'culture' themselves.[99] Gerhard Weinberg asserts that the historical evidence points to the conclusion that Hitler, like he had done with the Soviets in the 1939-1941 period, employed a tactic of conceding to the Japanese whatever they desired until they in turn could be defeated in a subsequent war.
http://www.fatuma.net/text/SavitriDevi-the Hindu-AryanMythandNeo-Nazism.pdf
In Mein Kampf (1925) Hitler made no secret of his contempt for anticolonial movements. He characterized Indian freedom fighters as ''Asiatic jugglers'' and denied any parallel between Germany's desire to shake off the postwar Versailles system and anticolonial rebellion in India or Arab nationalist movements. For him, the oppressed nations were simply racially inferior.1 Moreover, his racialist ideas were subject to considerations of foreign and colonial policy.
 

parijataka

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Re: Right wing extremism.

/\/\/\
Right wing in India is not about Nazism.
 

Scalieback

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Re: Right wing extremism.

/\/\/\
Right wing in India is not about Nazism.
Bearing in mind there's quite a few nazi lovers on here and even those who have emblems as their avatar's, I'd say it was appropriate for a reminder. However, if the mods feel it should go elsewhere, I'm not gonna die in a ditch over it.

BTW http://www.rt.com/news/mein-kampf-sales-india/
 

Predator

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Re: Right wing extremism.

^thought policing, why so scared of books? everyone can form their own opinion after reading the book

moreover the man in your avatar churchill was a true nazi who killed millions of indians, oh since he was your compatriot he must be a godly figure for you.
 

Scalieback

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Re: Right wing extremism.

^thought policing, why so scared of books? everyone can form their own opinion after reading the book[
I'm not scared in the slightest. I read Mein Kampf years ago, a pile of drivel and poo imo. I just can't believe in Indian nazi's, it's like Israeli's admiring Hitler :rolleyes:

^moreover the man in your avatar churchill was a true nazi who killed millions of indians, oh since he was your compatriot he must be a godly figure for you.
We've debated Churchill to death, but feel free to carry on with your witch hunt ;) It is one of the reasons I posted his image as an avatar, to get bites and it clearly succeeded :cool:

He's not godly, but I admire him even if he was a self agrandising bloater :)
 

parijataka

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Scalieback

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Re: Right wing extremism.

Actually I would say there are a fair many left winger sympathisers here...
Some, but I rarely come into contact with them it seems :)

I do clash with the nazi sympathisers though, but then they also seem to like Brit bashing ;)
 

Iamanidiot

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Some, but I rarely come into contact with them it seems :)

I do clash with the nazi sympathisers though, but then they also seem to like Brit bashing ;)
Brit bashing is common across the political spectrum.Little love is lost on you chappies.
 

Scalieback

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Re: Right wing extremism.

Brit bashing is common across the political spectrum.Little love is lost on you chappies.
On this board, certainly. Crack on I say, seems a bit different to the usual Pakistani and China bashing :) Nice to know you speak the Queens English though ;)

Oh, that and some people being unable to justify their comments and abuse of privileges, but as they say that's a seperate matter. :cool:
 

parijataka

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Re: Right wing extremism.

Some, but I rarely come into contact with them it seems :)

I do clash with the nazi sympathisers though, but then they also seem to like Brit bashing ;)
Well your arrse forum is no better, they bash all other nationalities too. Consider it a venting exercise where people can let off steam incognito...
 

Scalieback

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Re: Right wing extremism.

Well your arrse forum is no better, they bash all other nationalities too. Consider it a venting exercise where people can let off steam incognito...
My Arrse forum? Really? Mine? Nice of you to say, but incorrect.

I post on Arrse and was invited over here.

As for other nation bashing, it goes on but is generally with a sense of humour and is often self deprecating imx.

Still, when you can point me to a post where I've slandered or put down India or Indians ..................

I've no problem with Brit bashing but remember 'people in glass houses should not throw stones' and 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' ;)
 

parijataka

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Re: Right wing extremism.

My Arrse forum? Really? Mine? Nice of you to say, but incorrect.

I post on Arrse and was invited over here.

As for other nation bashing, it goes on but is generally with a sense of humour and is often self deprecating imx.

Still, when you can point me to a post where I've slandered or put down India or Indians ..................

I've no problem with Brit bashing but remember 'people in glass houses should not throw stones' and 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' ;)
Agree with you. G'night.
 

Scalieback

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Re: Right wing extremism.

and had to wait for another century before trying again. But why were such instances of imperial unity the exception rather than the rule?
I wouldn't call it a hundred tears from Child's War in 1686 to 1690 and Plassey in 1757. Maybe 70 or 80 ;)
 

Scalieback

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Re: Right wing extremism.

Mods locked the other thread that the nazi lover lurks on, under his rock ;)

known_unknown said:
My favourite pictures of the "great" Imperialist swines of the 20th century:

The biggest KKK/White Supremacist/Pig-Master of them all:
He wasn't, but there's a reason why he's now my avatar, to p1ss off small minded individuals like you :cool:

known_unknown said:
And the famed, brave and unbeaten (?) Swinetroops of the Crumbpire running like rats into the water in fear of the Wehrmacht at Dunkirk

For what's the motto of the Swinetroops? "He who fights and runs away, may live to fight another day".
They did. After defeating your air force and removing you from Africa, Italy, France etc plus bombing you back to your nordic/aryan roots. Twice in the last century :cool: :cool:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ry-india-s-olympic-failings-3.html#post549915
 
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