Dhanush the Indian Bofors

[aarav]

The Athos deal are based on media reports ,there hasn't been DAC approval infact the ATAGS have DAC approval of 150 guns ,so let's keep things in perspective.

 

[garg_bharat]

Indigenization is an issue of policy making. The best machinery need not be the most politically expedient purchase. In an event like Kargil where the US had imposed an embargo on us, if you are left without spares in a future conflict, then Allah help us.

Boss India does not exist in an island devoid of any outside contact. India has something called "foreign relations". India has powerful countries as friends today. Kargil happened at a time when India's position was vulnerable. And India did pay the price of its deficiencies in blood.

Today the situation is much better. Not only is India financially well off but also has better foreign relations.

India will be able to buy what it needs overseas. Please rest assured about that.

The question of a total embargo on India in wartime simply does not arise.

 

[garg_bharat]

It is important that soldier's voice is heard. Because if we don't India wont exist.

Modi's government has heard soldier's voice and worked hard to provide for the soldier.

And the result is showing in the jungles and mountains of the North.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Dhanush is the pet project of ofb. The initial order for 114 guns is for 45 calibre version of .Dhanush. I think the entire inventory of Bofors guns of 414 will be replaced by Dhanush. As such the next batch of order of 300+ guns will be 52 calibre version which is already developed by ofb.
Regarding atags its towed version has a requirement of 1600-1700 which will be divided into orders for Bharat forge and Tata.
I think drdo is also trying to revive the Bhim sph project based on Arjun chassis and atags gun will supplement the 100 k9 vajra .

 

[garg_bharat]

First of all Dhanush order is not small. It is three year production at the designated agency. More orders will be released well before this one is delivered.

Other guns are in the pipeline too and the plan is to complete induction of 3000 guns in ten years.

 

[garg_bharat]

We are way past DRDO ofb Army entanglement. Now each agency is working on well defined projects.

Modi government listened to Army when it cleared 464 T90ms tanks. There is no pushing of DRDO stuff if army does not want.

 

[Chinmoy]

Imported Guns from Israel threatens ATAGS and Dhanush

Source: Indian Defence Review (WordPress)
Author: Chris Gupta

As per latest reports the Indian Army’s tender for 1250 towed artillery guns has found a winner. The L1 bidder has been declared as the consortium of Elbit and Bharat Forge. The gun in contention is the ATHOS 2052 from Israel, which is a 155mm 52 caliber gun and has a strike range of 40 kilometers. Interestingly the price of the Israeli gun is cheaper than the Indian OFB developed Dhanush. The consortium intends to completely manufacture the gun in India with full technology transfer, HOWEVER the fact remains that the opening of this tender comes with a terrible timing, at a time when India is all ready to get self-sufficient in this requirement.

Had this tender been approved 4 to 5 years ago it would have meant a significant leap for the Indian Army but its current approval could mean smaller or no orders for the Indian produced guns if a contract for the ATHOS 2052 is to be signed. The Indian Dhanush for its part is a 155mm 45 caliber gun and has a strike range of 38 to 40 kilometers. Not many know but the Dhanush also has a 155mm 52 caliber version which comes with the same 40 kilometer range and has two variants. One being towed and the other truck mounted. Now the next gun ATAGS is arguably a world record holder and has fired at a record 48 kilometers distance, which is substantially higher as compared to any other conventional gun in the same category.

The one fact that continues to baffle every or any defense analyst would be, why should we squeeze our own defense industry to make way for imported stuff. Realistically there is a lot of other equipment that we need to import like fighter jets, armed drones and submarines. Why in basic understanding would we want to import a gun system from Israel, when we are already producing a similar weapon in the country. Same is the case for basic trainer jets and even frigates for the navy. The Indian Navy is looking to induct four frigates with Russian help, there is a huge shortage of ships in the Indian Navy and Russia has two unfinished hulls which cant find engines. It would be logical to import just two directly from the Russians, to make up for numbers. The other two of the four are to be manufactured at Goa shipyard from scratch with technology transfer and assistance from the Russians. Now once again why not have the additional two, be examples of the Project 17A, which are presently being constructed by Mazagon shipyard Mumbai and Garden Reach shipyard Kolkata. It is a well understood fact that the Indian Shivalik class frigates are better than the Russian Talwar class in many / most aspects. Why in the name of basic understanding are we paying for technology that we already have.

First of all one should go and slap these reporters for reporting only one side of a deal. This tender was initiated around a decade ago, much before ATAGS or Dhanush came into play. The real requirement is of around 1500 guns, but since ATAGS came into play, the ATHOS would probably be shelved at around 400 guns. Our requirement is of around 4000 guns comprising of ULH, Towed guns, SPH and Mounted guns. So Dhanush and ATAGS would see there share anyhow.

While the requirement is for 1,580 towed guns, the majority of the systems might eventually be manufactured locally. According to the reports, the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is pushing to increase local production over import. Hence it is quite possible that of the 1,580 guns, only 400 will be purchased from Elbit.

As for the acquisition of the remaining 1,180 guns, the Government may opt for the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by DRDO in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge.

https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/38220

This is what Israelis are reporting. But heads off to our journalists.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Imported Guns from Israel threatens ATAGS and Dhanush

Source: Indian Defence Review (WordPress)
Author: Chris Gupta

As per latest reports the Indian Army’s tender for 1250 towed artillery guns has found a winner. The L1 bidder has been declared as the consortium of Elbit and Bharat Forge. The gun in contention is the ATHOS 2052 from Israel, which is a 155mm 52 caliber gun and has a strike range of 40 kilometers. Interestingly the price of the Israeli gun is cheaper than the Indian OFB developed Dhanush. The consortium intends to completely manufacture the gun in India with full technology transfer, HOWEVER the fact remains that the opening of this tender comes with a terrible timing, at a time when India is all ready to get self-sufficient in this requirement.

Had this tender been approved 4 to 5 years ago it would have meant a significant leap for the Indian Army but its current approval could mean smaller or no orders for the Indian produced guns if a contract for the ATHOS 2052 is to be signed. The Indian Dhanush for its part is a 155mm 45 caliber gun and has a strike range of 38 to 40 kilometers. Not many know but the Dhanush also has a 155mm 52 caliber version which comes with the same 40 kilometer range and has two variants. One being towed and the other truck mounted. Now the next gun ATAGS is arguably a world record holder and has fired at a record 48 kilometers distance, which is substantially higher as compared to any other conventional gun in the same category.

The one fact that continues to baffle every or any defense analyst would be, why should we squeeze our own defense industry to make way for imported stuff. Realistically there is a lot of other equipment that we need to import like fighter jets, armed drones and submarines. Why in basic understanding would we want to import a gun system from Israel, when we are already producing a similar weapon in the country. Same is the case for basic trainer jets and even frigates for the navy. The Indian Navy is looking to induct four frigates with Russian help, there is a huge shortage of ships in the Indian Navy and Russia has two unfinished hulls which cant find engines. It would be logical to import just two directly from the Russians, to make up for numbers. The other two of the four are to be manufactured at Goa shipyard from scratch with technology transfer and assistance from the Russians. Now once again why not have the additional two, be examples of the Project 17A, which are presently being constructed by Mazagon shipyard Mumbai and Garden Reach shipyard Kolkata. It is a well understood fact that the Indian Shivalik class frigates are better than the Russian Talwar class in many / most aspects. Why in the name of basic understanding are we paying for technology that we already have.

If Israeli gun is fully produced here with technology transfer, it is our gun only. Had we imported this gun from Israel , concern would have been genuine since this is going to be produced here it's a desi gun.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Only 400 athos will be built not 1600,rest 1200 will be atags.These athos too will be built in india by kalyani,the same company that will build atags.
Athos price is cheaper than even dhanush and its a modern gun which will build up our numbers until atags is ready.Also atags is mostly for plain and deserts due to 18 tn weight,athos is 13 tn ,better for rough terrain.

 

[Kay]

If Israeli gun is fully produced here with technology transfer, it is our gun only. Had we imported this gun from Israel , concern would have been genuine since this is going to be produced here it's a desi gun.

TOT is a myth. No one knowingly turns their customer into a competitor.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

I do not care what gun it is as long as it does PKMKB.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Pandeyji]

I do not care what gun it is as long as it does PKMKB

That is exactly the type of gun is necessary. If it's our own, we could use it anywhere without care.

 

[Enquirer]

Sir, i will be more than happy to help the soldiers pushing it if they need my help.
My question is Army should have known during the design phase that the gun is overweighted, why didn't they raised issues that time, why they waited for design phase to be completed to complain about its weight.

ATAGS is a great gun...they might reduce the weight a little bit in the next iteration (not sure by how much).
That said, DRDO is mostly to be blamed here as they've been claiming for 15 years that ATAGS will be 12 tons in weight.....and that it would be the lightest gun with the max range!!
DRDO needs to stop this BS of excessive boasting!!
But, ultimately Army shouldn't reject ATAGS...........

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Just when I thought you couldn't get any stupider.

I don't want to say this but the senior here is acting like a Salesman for ATHOS "OH MY GOD GUN".
God save this country if this type of people are in HIGHER ECHELONS OF INDIAN ARMY.
WHEN I ask him "replace our soldiers with mercenary soldiers" and GO FOR FULL IMPORT.
He become sentimental.
KAHE? Stomach pe laat mat maaro bhai.
Why? This is absurd question I know but if
WE will not induct our own good guns THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED Trials too then how we can think of becoming a major exporter, I don't know please anybody tell me.
Every weapon does not come in perfect shape first time it requires time to become mature, here in this forum I don't need to say this, everybody know.
But some of our few guys in this forum don't want to believe that.
"APNE PAIR PAR KAISE KULHADI MAARNI HAI..... NO NO NO NO...... KAISE APNE PAIR KO KATA JATA HAI KOI IN IMPORT LOBBYIST SE SIKHEN".

 

[Aaj ka hero]

I don't think you understand how IP rights work. Also, I hope you understand IPIP righ held by DRDO is helpful to India than by some foreign entity. IP rights have very little to do with production cost.

If someone can answer that, then ultimately mine question of
REPLACING INDIAN ARMY SOLDIERS WITH MERCENARY guys will also be answered sirji.
I know that was absurd question but it was necessary how our own weapons which can become world class are treated like junks(they are not) and WE SEE IMPORT PRADARSANI IN REPUBLIC DAYS AS ALWAYS.
Isreal when decided to go full HOME GROWN after last major war in 1973 would certainly had not thought like OUR IMPORT LOBBYISTS HERE ARE THINKING.

 

[Haldiram]

I don't want to say this but the senior here is acting like a Salesman for ATHOS "OH MY GOD GUN".
God save this country if this type of people are in HIGHER ECHELONS OF INDIAN ARMY.
WHEN I ask him "replace our soldiers with mercenary soldiers" and GO FOR FULL IMPORT.
He become sentimental.
Why? This is absurd question I know but if
WE will not induct our own good guns THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED Trials too then how we can think of becoming a major exporter I don't know.
Every weapon does not come in perfect shape first time it requires time to become mature, here in this forum I don't need to say this everybody know.
But some of our few guys in this forum don't want to believe that.
"APNE PAIR PAR KAISE KULHADI MAARNI HAI..... NO NO NO NO...... KAISE APNE PAIR KO KATA JATA HAI KOI IN IMPORT LOBBYIST SE SIKHEN".

The jawan at the lower rung pays the price for high handed brinkmanship from the higher ups from both sides, Army brass and PSU manufacturers. We lost so many jawans in Kargil because the higher ups weren't prepared; In the last moment, missiles had to be imported at a high cost, and jawans somehow salvaged spares from other Bofors guns to replace worn out parts. One Army higher-up allowed Barkha Dutt to walk right up to sensitive operational areas and broadcast from there and got more jawans killed. Is there any accountability for our guys lost? these Ajai Shuklas and HS Panags just want to throw muck at others. Which higher-up was punished for Kargil? everyone retired and got a plush flat in Aadarsh. Udhar bhi ghotala kar diya. Still calling others chor. They have stalled the Arjun and ATAGS for the sake of imported goods, and when war breaks out, they will say that the bureaucracy made us fight without proper equipment.

The govt. needs to send a message like they did to Avinash Chander and SP Tyagi. Just because someone pulls the trigger doesn't mean they get an overriding say in policymaking.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

The jawan at the lower rung pays the price for high handed brinkmanship from the higher ups from both sides, Army brass and PSU manufacturers. We lost so many jawans in Kargil because the higher ups weren't prepared; In the last moment, missiles had to be imported at a high cost, and jawans somehow salvaged spares from other Bofors guns to replace worn out parts. One Army higher-up allowed Barkha Dutt to walk right up to sensitive operational areas and broadcast from there and got more jawans killed. Is there any accountability for our guys lost? these Ajai Shuklas and HS Panags just want to throw muck at others. Which higher-up was punished for Kargil? everyone retired and got a plush flat in Aadarsh. Udhar bhi ghotala kar diya. Still calling others chor. They have stalled the Arjun and ATAGS for the sake of imported goods, and when war breaks out, they will say that the bureaucracy made us fight without proper equipments.

The govt. needs to send a message like they did to Avinash Chander and SP Tyagi. Just because someone pulls the trigger doesn't mean they get an overriding say in policymaking.

Yes sir, sometimes I think the ABILITY TO THINK HOW WARS WILL BE FOUGHT 20 YEARS FROM NOW ON is not present in our army as well as netas and babus(well these last two are already lost cause).
They themselves don't know how indigenous weapons can be used as a diplomacy too as well as for advancement of science and jobs too.

 

[Haldiram]

Yes sir, sometimes I think the ABILITY TO THINK HOW WARS WILL BE FOUGHT 20 YEARS FROM NOW ON is not present in our army as well as netas and babus(well these last two are already lost cause).
They themselves don't know how indigenous weapons can be used as a diplomacy.

This guy is a Lt. Gen, listen to his views. He basically says "civilians must not interfere in military affairs"...and a few minutes later says "in the US, military men have become Presidents". So, he's saying, you surrender all policymaking to us. He's an AAPtard, and these are the guys who have lobbied against anything desi, because they have a contempt for all indigenous stuff. These same whiskey generals lobbied against Gen. V.K Singh, got the TSD disbanded and ensured that secularism prevailed.


That was what @dhananjay1 was saying but he got bitten.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

because they have a contempt for all indigenous stuff.

Don't know from where this mindset come.
Sir, you and I am seeing @Shaitan sir are online, please enlighten me.

 

[dhananjay1]

This guy is a Lt. Gen, listen to his views. He basically says "civilians must not interfere in military affairs"...and a few minutes later says "in the US, military men have become Presidents". So, he's saying, you surrender all policymaking to us. He's an AAPtard, and these are the guys who have lobbied against anything desi, because they have a contempt for all indigenous stuff. These same whiskey generals lobbied against Gen. V.K Singh, got the TSD disbanded and ensured that secularism prevailed.


That was what @dhananjay1 was saying but he got bitten.

Puppy bites are cute, they don't bother me. :biggrin2: