Debate: Countering the PLAAF

[ersakthivel]

These Countries won't goes to battle with countries like China Russia or the US ..they have their medium fighters and some Fighter Bombers they Have EFT and Tornodo ..unlike Countries US and Russian Has to fight against each other one day they have Diff kind of Fighters

From the US

1.F 16 Light
2.F 15 and F 18 Medium
3.F 22 and F 35 Heavy

take the Russians

1 .Mig 29
2.Su 27 and Su 30
3.MiG 31 and Su 35

dedicated Fighter Bomber Su 24.and Su 34

F-35 heavy and F-15 medium?

British and french airforces are inherently incapable of operating against russian and chinese forces because they lack a 1970s era fighters like jag is an incredulous statement to make.

they replaced jags with more modern fighters is the answer that you are refusing to admit.french are standardizing on RAAFLE because they know there is no need to have a three tier or four tier air force , And most european partners in TYPHOON program are going to induct only two types of fighters TYPHOON and F-35.

The USAF will induct has stopped giving orders for F-16 and going to induct only F-35 from now on as a new fighter besides the F-22s they have.(F-18s are primarily for US navy)

So we don't need MIG-35 or RAFALE . If we too standardize on tejas mk-2, Super SUkhoi upgrades along with FGFA as new inductions (besides the upgraded Mirage-2000s and Mig-29s we already have ) there is no need for weight specific class of fighters like light medium,light and heavy.

Considering the partly allocation for force modernization in the past decade by indian govt , most of the IAF capital budget has to be earmarked for FGFA(or we should cancel it if we have to go for costly RAFALE!!!) I see no possibility of two 20 plus billion dollar capital buys for IAF in the coming decades.

Other arms of indian armed forces , IA and Navy are in equally trying need of funds for modernization. SO having Tejas mk-1 and mk-2 in high hundreds is the only cost effective option before IAF.

 

[SajeevJino]

F-35 heavy and F-15 medium?

British and french airforces are inherently incapable of operating against russian and chinese forces because they lack a 1970s era fighters like jag is an incredulous statement to make.

they replaced jags with more modern fighters is the answer that you are refusing to admit.french are standardizing on RAAFLE because they know there is no need to have a three tier or four tier air force , And most european partners in TYPHOON program are going to induct only two types of fighters TYPHOON and F-35.

The USAF will induct has stopped giving orders for F-16 and going to induct only F-35 from now on as a new fighter besides the F-22s they have.

as I said earlier The European Countries Need Just a Fighter and A Fighter Bomber .you Pointed out EFT or Rafale Along with F35 untill now they have Tornodo and Mirage in their inventory.

and these euro countries won't goes go fight against Chinese or the Russians ..what they face the threat was from Libya or the Egypt


as of American inventory F 15 is their Medium fighter ..and they won't retire their F 16 to F 35 suddenly ..this will take a decade to complete at that time their fleet something like

1.F 18 Light
2.F 15 and F 35 as Medium
3.F 22 and 6th gen as Heavy

 

[ersakthivel]

as I said earlier The European Countries Need Just a Fighter and A Fighter Bomber .you Pointed out EFT or Rafale Along with F35 untill now they have Tornodo and Mirage in their inventory.

and these euro countries won't goes go fight against Chinese or the Russians ..what they face the threat was from Libya or the Egypt


as of American inventory F 15 is their Medium fighter ..and they won't retire their F 16 to F 35 suddenly ..this will take a decade to complete at that time their fleet something like

1.F 18 Light
2.F 15 and F 35 as Medium
3.F 22 and 6th gen as Heavy

I pointed out the fighters in production lines, no body is running a production line with three weight classifications as you suggested.

There are at the most two types of fighters that are going to replace all other fighters and they are standardizing on them.

I don't agree with your statement that british and french airforces are nowadays being configured especially with libiya and other third world nations in mind, and with no intention of creating any meaningful capability of countering the russian airforce or PLAF in future.

Mirage and tornadoes are not being built any more, they too will be retired like jag and will be replaced with F-35, RAFALE and TYPHOON

 

[SajeevJino]

I don't agree with your statement that british and french airforces are nowadays being configured especially with libiya and other third world nations jn mind, and with no intention of creating any meaningful capability of countering the russian airforce or PLAF in future.

Do you Think the Britain and French and Germans go and Fight against the Russians or the China ..No way They won't enter the Battle ..they simply sent a NATO over there that consists from F 4 to F 18 and Rafale to EFT gripen and so on

Mirage and tornadoes are not being built any more, they too will be retired like jag and will be replaced with F-35, RAFALE and TYPHOON

That what I said earlier ..Now they Have Mirage and Tornodos in future they have F 35

 

[ersakthivel]

Do you Think the Britain and French and Germans go and Fight against the Russians or the China ..No way They won't enter the Battle ..they simply sent a NATO over there that consists from F 4 to F 18 and Rafale to EFT gripen and so on



That what I said earlier ..Now they Have Mirage and Tornodos in future they have F 35

AFAIK Nato is made up of british and many european airforces that don't have three category of fighters ,

only two class of fighters in the future with no plans for the third category,

In future they have only F-35 and TYPHHONs in most european air forces barring a few countries that are not part of NATO as well.

All the mirages and TORNADOs will be retired just like they retired the Jag in french and british airforce.

They think that these two fighters will do all the work of any combo of three types of weight category fighters,

 

[xuxu]

I don't think PLAAF will be the first foot if China and India go war

 

[SajeevJino]

I don't think PLAAF will be the first foot if China and India go war

I think the Artillery Barrage is the First wave

 

[xuxu]

I think the Artillery Barrage is the First wave

If go war, 1500 DF11 and DF15 (600km to 1200km)at Fujian province will move to nere India within 7 days, from the boundary to New Delhi is only 300km;
and 250 CJ-10 with 1500km-2000km range will move too. Fighters are in danger if fly nere another country's air defence net
And China-India boundary without gunfire for about 50 years, I don't think there will be any chance for a war

 

[SajeevJino]

If go war, 1500 DF11 and DF15 (600km to 1200km)at Fujian province will move to nere India within 7 days, from the boundary to New Delhi is only 300km;
and 250 CJ-10 with 1500km-2000km range will move too. Fighters are in danger if fly nere another country's air defence net
And China-India boundary without gunfire for about 50 years, I don't think there will be any chance for a war

Starting the WAR with Nuclear Ballistic Missiles ..I would request to China Build only Cruise missiles and ICBM's along with 10000 Megatons of Nuclear warheads

 

[xuxu]

Starting the WAR with Nuclear Ballistic Missiles ..I would request to China Build only Cruise missiles and ICBM's along with 10000 Megatons of Nuclear warheads

DF11 and 15 with non-nuke warhead, I don't think there will be any nuke war

 

[SajeevJino]

DF11 and 15 with non-nuke warhead, I don't think there will be any nuke war

How these Kind of Explosives effect with Some Kind of Military Buildings ..If your Ballistic Missile Targets the Military Quarters It may fall over the Play Ground ..at the Same Time the Indian Artillery forces starts Bombarding the Chinese Stations along the Border

 

[xuxu]

How these Kind of Explosives effect with Some Kind of Military Buildings ..If your Ballistic Missile Targets the Military Quarters It may fall over the Play Ground ..at the Same Time the Indian Artillery forces starts Bombarding the Chinese Stations along the Border

Artillery is outdated and useless within 7days of a war, First step:conventional missiles and cruise missiles remove air defense network, airports and other military installations with threatening for fighters; Second step:fighter and bomber master air superiorityï¼›Third step: Artillery and ground forces

 

[Yusuf]

I think we will digress from the original topic of how to counter PLAAF, but overall the situation probably will get to a stage where as with the Indo-Pak context where Pak says it will nuke India after a certain threshold, if India does not close in on the go conventional military gap with China & does not have a security alliance in Asia like I mentioned in my article, we may have to adopt a first strike option with a red line of damage from China's conventional strike against India to deter.

I mean a barrage of cruise missiles taking of ports, airports, AD across India should be a red line for India unless we have our own missile in quantity to cause military harm to China.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

HAL as of now stated such an statement based on there capability, Not about its future plans as 18 years is impractical ..

There are higher chance given that huge order placed for 14 squadrons ..

IAF would max receive 16 Tejas in 1yr, or 4 squads every 5yrs. So, just filling the void of 14 squadrons left by retiring Mig-21, Bisons, Mig-23, Mig-27 would take 18-20yrs.

There is very little chance that there would be multiple Tejas lines (MkI and later MkII) as by the time MKI production ends, it would be time to start the FGFA line. Also, HAL would have to start and run the medium category fighter line, 4.5G till 2022 and AMCA beyond that.

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That is what most stated including me, In modern warfare of today its the basic tactics ..

It wont be in hundred but in thousand in entire campaign, IAF already going through modernization for such airbases since 2011, As i have stated before Indian Airbases are military in nature unlike PLAAF over TAR ..

We do have sufficient capability regarding AWACS in the specific region ..

What if PLAAF first takes out all India's NE airfields with CJ-10 type of supersonic CM before the first PLAAF fighter takes to the skies?

200-300 CM launches can render the entire NE without air-cover. We don't have any defence to that, till the time at-least the 5Km altitude Aerostat radar is deployed (2016 onwards) along with MRSAM/QR-SRSAM.

We do not have enough AWACS platforms for 24x7 surveillance, and we would not have them in enough numbers at least for the next 5yrs.

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Tactical BM, Agni 1 and Agni 3 ..

You have to cheak the specs of J11 flanker which are based over TAR, They are not that capable and even if they are close to there russian counter parts, They cannot detect aircraft such as Tejas at longer ranges, I have stated this before abt Stealth feature that Tejas have unlike other aircraft in IAF ..

Very few PLAAF airbases are within strike range of Brahmos LACM. It would be at least 3-5yrs more for Nirbhay to become operational, and 10+yrs for LFRJ-LRCM, if at all work is being done on it.

I don't know if Tejas can operate within a PLAAF Flanker's BVR range to fire off its own BVR load. Tejas's detection range is 90km where as Flanker's is much more. Won't Tejas take BVR hits much before it can lock on to a PLAAF Flanker? Even though Tejas's FCS is much lesser, but it is not a bona fide LO airframe.

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Read my post again, >>

That is Tejas taken the primary work of Air-supremacy in majority of Wartime where as MKI will be used when most needed ..

Your entire argument seems to say that we do not need any more medium category fighters than the few Mig-29B/UPG that we already have. Is that prudent?

I really do not want the Rafale deal to go through. It will break our banks! Unnecessary cost. Rafale is the iPhone of the fighter world: Great to flaunt and possess, but far better cost effective alternatives exist. Plus, Rafale will eat into AMCA development costs.

Tejas cannot take the role of a medium fighter, and AMCA is still a decade away. We need a MMRCA to fill the squadron numbers for in between 2016-2025.

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MIG-35 was rejected by IAF due to many reason including its engines which are pure technical reasons, All other are rumors from various unreliable sources including other forums of someone`s personal opinions ..

Russia has already offered full ToT for MiG-35. Development is completed. Capability of full scale production was lacking as of last year.

It was rejected by IAF due to a logic of "not putting all eggs in the same basket". There were no other reasons. If it would have been allowed to compete, it would have beaten the Rafale due to it's much better specifications and newer technology. Not to mention the advantage of commonality of parts with Mig-29UPG and Mig-29K, and each fighter being 2/5th the price of a single Rafale.

Even if today India tells Russia that if they share RD-33OVT or RD-33MK engine and Zhuk-AE AESA tech, India would scrap Rafale and buy and make 200 MiG-35, Russia would gladly do that.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The situation India have compare to China is in favorable conditions, That is because there infrastructure dispite being very good and rugged are more vulnerable compare to India`s, That is because there terrain does not allow many roads or railways, Nearest Chinese railway is more than 1000kms away from LAC and there are few good highways leading to LAC through bridges and tunnels, Unlike India`s rail network is 100kms away from LAC and have multiple rough roads towards LAC ..

Ideal target for tactical BM and PJ-10 ..

I mean a barrage of cruise missiles taking of ports, airports, AD across India should be a red line for India unless we have our own missile in quantity to cause military harm to China.

 

[arnabmit]

IAF wants 3 categories of fighters. I don't know what logic they serve in the multirole era. Earlier it was light for interceptor role, medium for ground attack & heavy for air superiority. But in the multirole era, only 2 categories should be more than enough to perform all the roles.

However, no matter what we discuss, IAF would still want 3 categories for their current & future fleet:
Current: Tejas (light), Rafale (medium), MKI (heavy)
Future: Tejas MkII (light), AMCA (medium) & PakFa (heavy)

Since IAF WILL but medium fighters, no matter what we discuss, my point was that why Rafale? As of today it is already $28bn deal. By the time it is signed, it would be $32bn. Why not the much much cheaper MiG-35 which is equally capable to the Rafale, as an cheap interim solution to fill up the squadron numbers, so that majority of the fund can be redirected to AMCA & K10 development.

Since no one else is buying the Mig-35, my point is that we might be able to get some core engine or AESA technologies form them if we dangle the carrot.

Am not saying that buy Mig-35 off the shelf or CDK/SDK. Am saying that we can arm-twist them to share core technology of the Engine/AESA which we can make from raw materials at home, and then maybe buy the CDK of the airframe only.

Google is throwing a million results. Would be a great help if you can refer a few.

Google and find out , how many number of fighters the the french, british and Swedes have in each of the following category of,
1.light,
2.medium,
3. heavy fighters.

No one needs fighters in all categories. Answer will be all of them are standardizing on one size of fighters .

IAF has SU-30 MKI as heavy fighter and will be inducting FGFA as another heavy in a decade's time,

For missions with shorter range and lighter pay load we are going to have an assortment of Jags,Mirage-2000 upgraded, tejas mk-1 and tejas mk-2.

SO there is no need for another fighter category, All we need is a higher number of 4.5th gen fighters with 4.5 gen capacity for air defence .

Setting up another production line of tejas is not an insurmountable challenge, All we need is money, and the advanced ordering of engines and other crucial sub systems.

And if we have to fill the numbers without breaking the bank there are no other ways.

Regarding mig-35 , I already told you try to google and find out the satisfaction level of IAF about the engine tech of Mig series fighters and their availability rate.

This TOT is most the shameful way of cheating india. No one transfers their core tech. All TOT of critical parts on which the fighter depends upon for safe operations will be held back and will be supplied in CKD conditions .

You should think why IAF has grounded their entire series of Mig-23 fighters explicitly stating their engine problems can not be resolved. Tejas will have no such issues as it has a reliable engine and the reliability of airframe along with Fly by wire softwares have been established beyond doubt.

And fighters work as teams with a back up of Awacs land based radars ans sams . Tejas can have Su-30 MKI in a judicious mix for more effective tactics against PLAF flankers.If you still have any doubts you can see how a combo of Mig-21 and Su-30 MKi did perform with some effectiveness in the recently concluded red flag exercise..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@arnabmit, Your Idea to procure MIG-35 for IAF is a good thinking but lack foresight, If we do repeat same mistakes as been doing in past, We will never recover from it and this will damage our Nation in long run ..

As i have always said, China has well oiled National defense Industry to chunk out massive orders needed during wartime, Its not the same with India for example 1st week of air-war, We lose some 10 combat jets in air and another 20 damage on ground & Similar for PLAAF but unlike India they can replace there down fighter in matter of week, Where as we have to modify our license to produce more or we have to wait for Imported hardware at twice the cost during peace time for longer duration, It had happens in past many times ..

We today moving towards right direction, Despite its slow ..

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There are two Indian Gov organization working on AESA, there is no need for such import to kill it ( As it always happened before ) ..

 

[HeinzGud]

India and China should not fight each other. The only beneficiaries of this kind of warfare is Pakistanis. Do we need another khalifate in South Asia?

 

[arnabmit]

India never wants to fight wars. But war might be imposed upon us any day by our northern expansionist hegemons.

India and China should not fight each other. The only beneficiaries of this kind of warfare is Pakistanis. Do we need another khalifate in South Asia?

 

[HeinzGud]

India never wants to fight wars. But war might be imposed upon us any day by our northern expansionist hegemons.

China and India were good friends before. They should be friends now. Both sides has to show some commitment

I wonder why the two countries distance them selves?