Dealing with Pakistan

[Srinivas_K]

If you don't understand difference between autonomous anti-Indian activity like Terrorism conducted by ISI with democratic setup their is no point to talk with you.
Just changing the color of post doesn't make you right.

No need to answer this guy dude, I advise you to stop wasting your time !!

 

[Dark Sorrow]

No need to answer this guy dude, I advise you to stop wasting your time !!

Completely agreed. Point taken.

 

[sorcerer]

I totally agree with what you are presenting. I am not telling that we should give up our arms. What I saying is that we should try to neutralize Pakistan front from within itself so we are free to deal with China.
Instead of dividing our assets between two fronts it would be logical to neutralize Pakistani front from within Pakistan can concentrate with all our assets on Chinese front.

He(Gujral) ordered only the operations for covert action to be closed since he felt that such a gesture might facilitate his efforts to improve relations with Pakistan under the so-called Gujral Doctrine. RAW Operations in Pakistan » Indian Defence Review

Well, this was a stupid move, trusting an enemy to notice the enormous risk taken by India for peace process..

But this is an interesting read. Things look better with the Modi keen on reactivating RAW's covert capabilities in Pak.

Modi May Be Interested in Cross-Border Covert Ops Against Pakistan
Should Modi emerge as prime minister, he will be empowered to use RAW as he sees fit against Pakistan, without the knowledge or the consent of the Indian people. Modi May Be Interested in Cross-Border Covert Ops Against Pakistan | The Diplomat

Third, he wants to add muscle to Indian intelligence. There has been considerable excitement that Mr. Modi will reverse I.K. Gujral's purported decision to dismantle the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW)'s covert action capability. Some are salivating for Abbottabad-style raids. It is clear that the NSA sympathises, though his language is guarded.

Over the years, Mr. Doval has talked of the importance of covert action. In a 2012 article, he defines these as "a low cost sustainable offensive with high deniability aimed to bleed the enemy to submission." He despairs of New Delhi's failures to sharpen its tools in this regard, and dismisses conventional wars as "cost-ineffective and high-risk ventures." In his view, "the most effective way of dealing with terrorism would be to identify boys who have got the courage of conviction to match that of the fidayeens and who are capable of taking risks. Identify them and put them in action." He notes, ominously, that "Pakistan has its own vulnerabilities many times higher than India."
https://www.facebook.com/ajitdoval4NSA/posts/491068791026396



This is exactly what the present Govt is keen on doing.. Reactivate the RAW Covert Operations in Pak.

 

[sorcerer]

But first time since independence a new class has emerged in Pakistan that wishes to trade and have better relations with India. We should target this class.

I am not saying Pakistan to be given any loan, gift or freebies. I am saying we should have B2B or B2C trade and not G2G. In international busines it is give and take relationship. No one gives loans or differed payment business model (unless the two trading patners have very good relationship).
We are not going to give anything to Pakistani establishment.

Fundamentally, All businesses, B2B or B2C or G2G require clearance from both Govts to enter into each others service space. Right?
We cannot advocate India or Pakistan using Gray market or underground market to circumvent Govt purview to increase trade, disconnecting the Govt mechanism.
Now, back the first statetment.

Trade is low because Pakistan has not conferred MFN status to India, while India maintains a sensitive list under Safta. Furthermore, studies by the Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations show that discriminatorily stringent application by India of non-tariff barriers (e.g. regulatory and safety requirements) dampens Pakistani exports to that country. Political uncertainty and visa hassles also dampen mutual trade.

All the highlighted words are beyond the control of common business men of both the countries. When you think about it, its a necessity. Both countries have their own interests to pursue at Govt levels to ensure security and control.
India has her security to take care of and all the reason to worry when dealing with Pakistan. Previously, India has seen ISI opening bank accounts in the guise of trade account and use it to transfer money to India for sponsoring terrorism. So its natural on part of GOI to scrutnize requests for business being done or initiated with Pak.

Also industrially

The industries which may suffer due to increased Indian imports (into Pakistan) include automobile, steel and auto-part production, i.e., some of Pakistan's most advanced industries. The sectors benefiting from increased exports to India are less sophisticated. Thus, there might be a risk to the country's industrialisation drive.


Checking on the perception level, China can export its services to Pakistan easier than by India. There is a big anti - India sentiment. China is already tapping on it so well at all levels. Even as you say, bribe the way through has its limitation to work in anti-India sentimental climate prevalent in the country.

Its requires a very long time and a complete overhaul of Pakistani system to reboot their attitude towards India.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Fundamentally, All businesses, B2B or B2C or G2G require clearance from both Govts to enter into each others service space. Right?
We cannot advocate India or Pakistan using Gray market or underground market to circumvent Govt purview to increase trade, disconnecting the Govt mechanism.
Now, back the first statetment.

Trade is low because Pakistan has not conferred MFN status to India, while India maintains a sensitive list under Safta. Furthermore, studies by the Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations show that discriminatorily stringent application by India of non-tariff barriers (e.g. regulatory and safety requirements) dampens Pakistani exports to that country. Political uncertainty and visa hassles also dampen mutual trade.

All the highlighted words are beyond the control of common business men of both the countries. When you think about it, its a necessity. Both countries have their own interests to pursue at Govt levels to ensure security and control.
India has her security to take care of and all the reason to worry when dealing with Pakistan. Previously, India has seen ISI opening bank accounts in the guise of trade account and use it to transfer money to India for sponsoring terrorism. So its natural on part of GOI to scrutnize requests for business being done or initiated with Pak.

Also industrially

The industries which may suffer due to increased Indian imports (into Pakistan) include automobile, steel and auto-part production, i.e., some of Pakistan's most advanced industries. The sectors benefiting from increased exports to India are less sophisticated. Thus, there might be a risk to the country's industrialisation drive.


Checking on the perception level, China can export its services to Pakistan easier than by India. There is a big anti - India sentiment. China is already tapping on it so well at all levels. Even as you say, bribe the way through has its limitation to work in anti-India sentimental climate prevalent in the country.

Its requires a very long time and a complete overhaul of Pakistani system to reboot their attitude towards India.

Completely agreed. We would have to have some hard negotiation with them. Their automobile, steel and auto-part production sector are advanced compared to their other industry but are very very poor when compared to global standard. Electronics and pharmacy sector are one we can dominate.
On the contrary their agricultural sector will benefit a lot.
We will have to set up separate guidelines, rules and regulations.
No special privileges will be given to them. They have to do business under same conditions on which rest of world does plus additional set of rules.
We would have to negotiate hard and we will have to start somewhere/sometime.

 

[sorcerer]

Completely agreed. We would have to have some h/ard negotiation with them. Their automobile, steel and auto-part production sector are advanced compared to their other industry but are very very poor when compared to global standard. Electronics and pharmacy sector are one we can dominate..

On the contrary their agricultural sector will benefit a lot.

Pakistan's pharma sector objects to MFN status to India
After its influential agriculture lobby, pharmaceutical industry associations in Pakistan have now put their foot down against granting the most-favoured nation (MFN) status to India.

"Pakistan is apprehensive that if it allows the import of pharmaceutical products from India, local producers' livelihood might get hampered. The pharmaceutical trade has huge potential for India. The pharmaceutical industry in Pakistan is at a nascent stage and is highly unorganised. So, their fear is natural," a senior official told Business Standard.
Pakistan's pharma sector objects to MFN status to India | Business Standard News

We will have to set up separate guidelines, rules and regulations.
No special privileges will be given to them. They have to do business under same conditions on which rest of world does plus additional set of rules.
We would have to negotiate hard and we will have to start somewhere/sometime.

All these are very dependent on 1 factor. Cross Border Terrorism sponsored by Pakistan as stated by other posters on this thread.

In a democratic framework, the policy of the Govt is directly dependent on the collective psych of the civilian population. You must be aware that, every time the GOI takes extraordinary measures to restart the trade relations with Pakistan, the ISI , the Pakistan army thwart it by Cross Border Terrorism.

This puts enormous pressure on the working Govt to stop the peace dialogue between India and Pakistan and we are back to square one

So you know where the larger issue lies.

Nothing happens without a conducive environment for peace and progress.

 

[prohumanity]

Folks..don't forget a terrorist controlled Pakistan is the greatest threat to Paki masters..namely Saudi Royals and Washington bosses....The aid by these two to Paki to not let Pakistan go into little pieces . Using Pakistan again against India is impossible now.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Pakistan's pharma sector objects to MFN status to India
After its influential agriculture lobby, pharmaceutical industry associations in Pakistan have now put their foot down against granting the most-favoured nation (MFN) status to India.

"Pakistan is apprehensive that if it allows the import of pharmaceutical products from India, local producers' livelihood might get hampered. The pharmaceutical trade has huge potential for India. The pharmaceutical industry in Pakistan is at a nascent stage and is highly unorganised. So, their fear is natural," a senior official told Business Standard.
Pakistan's pharma sector objects to MFN status to India | Business Standard News

I completely agree with you. But these reasons given by anti-Indian people in Pakistan for not to trade.

Compared to us their pharmaceutical is non-existent.
Major diseases drugs like Cancer, AIDS, etc. and most of the anti-biotic, anti-viral, blood thinners are imported by Pakistan. India drugs are generally smuggled via Dubai. Pakistani people prefer Indian drug over western made because they cost a fraction of the the western counterpart.
As a matter of fact their were reports that they tried to imitate some Indian and Western drugs but miserably failed.
One of the major factor is unavailability if ultra-pure grade zinc.

All these are very dependent on 1 factor. Cross Border Terrorism sponsored by Pakistan as stated by other posters on this thread.

But sir we are currently doing nothing to stop Cross Border Terrorism sponsored by Pakistan.
We still don't have robust preventive mechanism. All we are doing right now is catching perpetrators after the act. Sometimes this even fails and culprits get away.

In a democratic framework, the policy of the Govt is directly dependent on the collective psych of the civilian population. You must be aware that, every time the GOI takes extraordinary measures to restart the trade relations with Pakistan, the ISI , the Pakistan army thwart it by Cross Border Terrorism.

This puts enormous pressure on the working Govt to stop the peace dialogue between India and Pakistan and we are back to square one

So you know where the larger issue lies.

Nothing happens without a conducive environment for peace and progress.

Completely agreeing with you. This is something our government has to work with. We will need to identify this anti-Indian elements and will have to deal with them.
What I found out is that their is no single head with anti-Indian mentality but multiple like heads of hydra. We will have to identify them and neutralize them.
Second approach would be to wait till this anti-Indian mentality dies down. But that may even take 100 years!!!

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Post is deleted by user.

 

[sorcerer]

But sir we are currently doing nothing to stop Cross Border Terrorism sponsored by Pakistan.
We still don't have robust preventive mechanism. All we are doing right now is catching perpetrators after the act. Sometimes this even fails and culprits get away.


Completely agreeing with you. This is something our government has to work with. We will need to identify this anti-Indian elements and will have to deal with them.
What I found out is that their is no single head with anti-Indian mentality but multiple like heads of hydra. We will have to identify them and neutralize them.
Second approach would be to wait till this anti-Indian mentality dies down. But that may even take 100 years!!!

There was failure on acting on the intel recieved by agencies on Cross Border Terrorism. Because, some politicians in India used such terrorism as their means to gain political mileage. The appeasement politics I mean. Also the important factor was the coordination and internal bitching by the intel agencies.

But with the current Govt, things are changing. They are trying to fix the voids and doing things necessary to inter agency intel sharing. So far, they have prioritised their priorities right. Sensing from the information doing rounds, there is a sense of confidence and commitment from the intel agencies.

There are anti-Indian elements who are being protected by the Pak Govt establishment and their army. Such people are their strategic assets. Neutralizing such threats will require political pressure as well as covert mechanisms.
Lets see what result the overhauling RAW and restarting the Covert ops in Pakistan does to protect the Indian way of life.

 

[sorcerer]

Folks..don't forget a terrorist controlled Pakistan is the greatest threat to Paki masters..namely Saudi Royals and Washington bosses....The aid by these two to Paki to not let Pakistan go into little pieces . Using Pakistan again against India is impossible now.

Pak threat to Washington is understandable..but what is the Pak threat to Saudi?

 

[sorcerer]

Will take pro-active steps to deal with Pakistan proxy war: Parrikar

On a day when the US asked Pakistan to fight all terror groups, India on Tuesday warned that "pro-active" steps will be taken to deal with the "proxy war" supported by the neighbouring country and said a "difference" will be seen in the next six months.

The Defence Minister said that there were a large number of cases pending in various courts, particularly with regard to disability.
"There are some 3,000 to 4,000 pending cases at various levels. We have taken a decision that we will not make disabled ex-servicemen fight unnecessarily in the courts. The benefit will flow to all the disabled soldiers," he said.

Parrikar said that the online registration for army recruitment drive was being introduced on trial basis at two places.
"If we get successful response we will use similar type of technique here also so that there is no unnecessary rush at the time of drive," he said.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar while sending a tough message to Pakistan over ceasefire violations and infiltrations by militants also said it will be ensured that the "enemy" doesn't show any more interest in proxy war. At the same time, he said India wanted peace with Pakistan.
Parrikar's remarks came even as Army Chief Gen Dalbir Singh accused Pakistan of continuing to support "proxy war" in Jammu and Kashmir despite suffering casualties due to terror on its soil.

Asking Pakistan to target all militant groups, US Secretary of State John Kerry told reporters in Islamabad that terror outfits like LeT, Taliban and the Haqqani network posed a threat to countries in the region like India and also to the US.
"On proxy war, the government is very clear about what is happening. We have taken a stand and though I will not like to tell you what is the exact action we are taking...You will be able to see the difference by the time summer gets over. In the next 6 months you will see the difference in actual figures," Parrikar told a press conference in Lucknow.
Stating that "one difference" is already visible, he said the number of terrorists neutralised so far this year is about 65 to 70 per cent more than that in last year.
"We want peace with our neighbours, but if there is an attempt for proxy war, we will take some proactive steps. What kind of proactive steps cannot be revealed in a press conference.

"But, I can assure you that we will ensure that enemy doesn't show any interest in proxy war or the interest comes down," he added.
To a question on dialogue with Pakistan, the Defence Minister said, "India's position is very clear. The stand taken by the Ministry of External Affairs is clear. If any dialogue has to be done with Pakistan, they should first stop ceasefire violation and intrusion of terrorists."
"If it does not stop, then dialogue alone will not bring a solution. That should be very clear, intention expressed should be reflected in performance and delivery on the ground," he said.

In Delhi, the Army Chief said, "Pakistan is supporting proxy war in Jammu and Kashmir despite suffering casualties within their country".
Gen Singh said one will have to "wait and watch" if Pakistan Army has had a change of heart since the gruesome terror attack on an Army school in Peshawar last month.

"Threats and challenges have been growing, both in intensity as well as commitment, because of active borders that we have," Singh said addressing his annual press conference.
The comments by Parrikar and Gen Singh came close on the heels of allegations by Pakistan Prime Minister's Adviser on National Security and Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz that India was "involved in the attacks on Pakistan from Afghanistan".

Parrikar said, "If your enemies are doing something then
you can do only one thing, and, that is to give a reply. We have started replying. Ceasefire violation has increased a bit on the international border, but has declined on the Line of Control.

"If you see the statistics, there is a huge difference, but when it happened we replied to them with much more emphasis and determination," he said.
The Defence Minister said certain exercises were on to put enough pressure across the border.
"My work is that on Kashmir border where the army is positioned. If there is any infiltration, a befitting reply should be given. We will definitely ensure that the country's borders do not remain a place for infiltrators. That much I can guarantee," he said.
On his reported that statement that crew members of suspected "terror boat" from Pakistan might have consumed cyanide pills, Parrikar said he never stated that they consumed poison.


"I said that they could have used any method to commit suicide. Immolation is not necessary, because some people were saying that they burnt themselves, they can even consume poison," he said.
Usually, he said, terrorists carried cyanide capsules and in this case too it could have been so.

To a question about China, he said, "Sab cheezey theek honi chahiye, sab logon ko theek karna chahiye aisa nahi hai (everything should be correct, but it is not that everyone has to be corrected)."

On the role of middlemen in arms deals, the Defence Minister said they would be permitted only as a representative or as a technical advisor.

"It (the proposal) is in formulation stage and has not been notified yet. The idea is...It should not include commission, percentage based on success fee or bonuses," he said.
"Commission payment is not permitted and will not be allowed. Such provision (to have representative) already exists, but it is not spelt out clearly. We will spell it out clearly," he said.

On issues pending from several years like closure of roads, Parrikar said, "We have started working out solution one by one. An order has been issued that all roads which have been blocked without following the laid down procedure should be opened."
He said that another issue is welfare of the ex-servicemen.


Read more: Will take pro-active steps to deal with Pakistan proxy war: Parrikar - News - Politics - Russian Radio

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Well, this kind of attitude is what India needs..

 

[rock127]

I guess we can use some ammo nearing expiry date on these Pakis so they are utilized properly.

Also gift some toys to AFG for free(invite Iran as well) so we can make a tasty Paki Sandwitch. :gun: akistan:

 

[brahmastra11]

It is time to force UN to declare Pakistan a terrorist country and it should split into pieces.. Else this menace is not going to end..

groups of nations like BRICS, SAARC, G8/G20 etc., should threaten UN that they are going to come out of UNO if they do not declare Pakistan a terrorist nation...

US monopoly days are gone.. China may obstruct to an extent.. else whole world will support such a move from UN..

 

[sorcerer]

UN is just a social setting for world leaders to come and have fun.
Seriously!! UN Monopoly is gone and we see US monopoly.

 

[rock127]

UN is just a social setting for world leaders to come and have fun.
Seriously!! UN Monopoly is gone and we see US monopoly.

UN is just a forum to issue speeches and even troll.

Pakistan use it for trolling fulltoo.

See below creative by me...

 

[Nicky G]

i accept you have your point of view , mine is based on a fair amount of material from the internet
that the pivotal nations want pak nuke arsenal to be captured and brought to zero ...but i wont argue on the point
if you like to know one of my sources search for Sheikh Imran Hosein on youtube .....most interesting and intelligent
person.

bascialy they are angered with pack's alignment with china and it is becoming a pak-china-russia -iran-syria grouping
and to remove pak's and iran's and syrias ( latent stage of vdevelopment ) nukes is to remove those nukes closest to israel.........the whole thing is about protecting israel and india gains from that.

Wanting something and seriously acting on it are different things. My simple point is that balkanization of Pak will only increase the urgency of the world to act; thus, we must help speed that process up.

I agree, the angle around Israel is perhaps the key and India benefits from that, but none of this is an argument against India helping disintegration of Pak state.

Pakistan is a different case all together. Normal business practices don't apply to them.

That for India. There is no reason for India to take loss in the short run unless a long term profit is expected. I do not see the case here.

Russia and Ukraine delayed payments was/is with regard to fossil fuel that also deal was between governments where Russia had total control.
What here I am talking about is B2B or B2C dealing and not G2G!!! There is no delayed payments here (even in case of domestic market unless you have very good relations). Its generally give and take.
If you buy a computer form Dell (B2C model), Dell won't allow you to buy on delayed payment basis.
Why should TATA or Mahindra sell vehicles with delayed payments???

Deferred payments happen all the time in a B2B environment. I know this from the deals I myself have been involved in. This is where DSO comes in.

We are not selling anything to Pakistan. We are selling to Pakistani people who have capability and are willing to pay for your merchandise. We are bot doing social service we are doing business. There is difference between two.

Yes, yes, but Pak people would need money, which would means loans, which come from government or other financial institutions. What's the health of their financial sector?

Its not just about bribing even knowing where the terrorist will be at a particular location at particular time helps a lot. Lot of things ranging from assassination to wide range of dirty tactics can be perceived to neutralize the threat (even from source).

Again, I do not see how this would challenge the real establishment in Pak.

We will have to be innovative to do this. Even our current strategy fails to achieve this. All problems can't be fixed with one hammer.

I am not even sure what our current strategy is apart from waiting it out and letting Pak destroy itself. I am all for helping that process along.

If we have enough influence/control at the source of the pipeline India's interests won't be vulnerable. In Russia-Ukraine pipeline Russia had total control of the source.
No one is suggesting stop tanker moment between our ports. But what makes you think our tankers are not vulnerable or even matter of fact our refinery s especially Jamnagar refinery.

I agree they are vulnerable, but we have limited options.

That's exactly my point till now these contractors and/or warlord never had the incentive to challenge Pakistan establishment. We should be the incentive. They will never go against the establishment for RAW but they can be flipped by means for trade. Money is the biggest motivator. If economically interest are threatened this Pakistanis will do anything.

Something greater than money or greed is fear. You need to account for that, post which, I am not sure you'd have a workable plan.

I agree there are some elements that will do anything to deters us (even be ready to nuke on their soil) but instead of complaining we must formulate means to deal with such people.

What I found was most these leadership is form 71 era and they have witnessed humiliation and destruction suffered by Pakistan in hands of India. I will tell you one think this people will resent (hate) India no matter what. They will have to be dealt with or we will have to wait till that generation dies off.
Best example is our favorite dictator Mr. Pervez Musharraf.

We must formulate means I agree, mine is to balkanize Pak. To have them fight each other instead of us and at the same time reduce their potential threat to us.

Well a new generation is ready to hate India post Balochistan.

 

[dastan]

Hey guys if i may chip in

I've been reading all the suggestions so far and most seem feasible to some extent or atleast are debatable

Now I've to ask your opinions on a very different scenario

What if another 26/11 (God forbid) style attack happens on our soil?

How do we deal with Pakistan in the aftermath of such an attack?

If government is to be believed in the recent terror boat scenario then the possibility of another attack can't be ruled out.

 

[sorcerer]

Now I've to ask your opinions on a very different scenario

What if another 26/11 (God forbid) style attack happens on our soil?

How do we deal with Pakistan in the aftermath of such an attack?

If government is to be believed in the recent terror boat scenario then the possibility of another attack can't be ruled out.

IMO, Govt has its limitations when escalating situations at the border. This will be something, that will be considered to counter military aggression or terrorism backed by military aggression. India has a very specific scope about using its forces. Nation to Nation aggression on 'stateless' actors must be what prevented USA from putting boots on the ground and puts it focus on covert assasinations and bombing runs on actionable intelligence.

Politically: There will be the usual internal political bitching. Disregard that as Congies do what they are good at- bitching.

APart from that BJP lead GoI has to reach a political solution, that include the usual, post event formalities, including submission of the infamous dossiers which we can be sure that the PAK Govt will sleep on.

There will be strong diplomatic posturing that can even lead to "near" shut down of Pak Embassy in India.- An escalated diplomatic posturing.

The new Indian Govt; which is being very vocal about its intentions, India can use its current influence in the region to isolate Pak more effectively at international level. This could mean stop or stall funding, loans and aid provided to it by other countries.

Second will be formation of a very robust covert mechanism inside PAK to neutralize the threat from the source itself and stop incidents from happening again in the first place. This would be faciliated by the Indo-US partnership on Intel sharing, which came into effect on 2010(?).

Thirdly will be to seriously work on Indias leverages inside Pakistan. "Ajit Doval warns Pakistan "You do one more Mumbai, you lose Balochistan " . Apart from hypothetical threats, India should make such threats, a loud reality for the establishment of Pakistan.

As long as there is Pakistan, India will face threats from fanatics with the support of radicalized elements in ISI and its army. There is no silver bullet for this, but rather persistance on long term solution that will ensure that Pakistan can be neutralized from within.

 

[roma]

No need to answer this guy dude, I advise you to stop wasting your time !!

Completely agreed. Point taken.

To @Srinivas_K and @Dark Sorrow - i think we need to gather others also together and take
some kind of collective response to people who flame and write rude nonsensical
posts just because they have a keyboard somewhere around

lowering the quality of the forum ....i had no hesitation in reporting one of the posts
that was in that category - you and others should also do the same .- when you come across
low q posts.

example of low-q and vulgar language post:-

I think we should just let the WKK brigade to wank each other out .....

etc etc , not worth reading .

we can and should help mods identify such posts but leave admin action to them