Dassault bosses in India to seal 'mother of all defence deals'

[JAISWAL]

By Gautam Datt
00:11 13 Jan 2014, updated 00:11 13 Jan 2014
Rafale

In a bid to end the deadlock in the negotiation for the sale of 126 Rafale combat jets to the Indian Air Force, French aircraft-maker Dassault Aviation bosses have come to the country to seal what is often termed as "mother of all defence deals".

A team of officials from Dassault, Thales and Snecma - the three original equipment manufacturers of Rafale - is Bangalore talking to Indian aviation company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - the lead partner in producing the aircraft in India - to resolve the issue of workshare agreement, sources said.

Workshare issue

India had picked Rafale for exclusive negotiations in January 2012.

But the deadlock over the workshare between Dassault and its Indian Production Agencies (IPAs) and the lead partner had become a bone of contention delaying the whole acquisition process.

Rocky flight: The Rafale was selected to be India's new fighter plane but the deal to buy 126 planes has got bogged down in negotiations
Rocky flight: The Rafale was selected to be India's new fighter plane but the deal to buy 126 planes has got bogged down in negotiations
The IAF had earlier this month asked the French officials to resolve the differences with HAL to move forward as it sought to end the sense of uncertainty that has gripped the contract.

"The difficult part of the negotiations over the transfer of technology and the mandatory spin offs have already been finalised but there is uncertainty about who will provide what," a source said.

MORE...
Bangalore police say stunt bikers will lose their machines following death of two motorcyclists
As is known, 18 aircraft would be purchased in fly-away condition from France while the rest would be made in India. Dassault has identified 17 IPAs who will provide the components for the aircraft along with HAL.

Delay in deals
Delay in deals
The logjam in the Rafale deal has led to a delay in the purchase of new fighters, which are crucial for the IAF to check the depleting combat jet squadron strength.

There is a sense of urgency because even if it moves forward, the contract might be finalised only by the end of this year when a new government is in place.

HAL chairman R.K. Tyagi is expected to go on a follow-up visit to France later this month to meet officials at the highest level.

That apart, the IAF will also have to wait for some more time to add to its fleet - Apache attack helicopters, Chinook heavy lift helicopters and new Airbus refuellers as India looks to cap the purchases for the financial year by buying new missiles to make its Jaguar combat jets more potent.

With multi-role combat jet deal still in a limbo, the IAF has exhausted its budget to buy new aircraft and equipment for fifth year in the running but it will not be able to conclude three other contracts - purchase of 22 Apache helicopters, 15 Chinook helicopters and six A330 refuelling tankers - which are in advanced stages of negotiations with the vendors.

The IAF had hoped to clinch these purchases within till this financial year. The price negotiations have been concluded for the purchase of 15 Chinook heavy lift helicopters as only final signatures by the acquisition team members were needed to seal an estimated Rs7000 crore contract.

The process of price negotiations resumes this month after a set back suffered in the form of sudden demise of joint secretary in charge of air acquisitions A.K. Bal in October 2013.

The final price for Chinook helicopters was finalised in September 2013 itself, but it is expected to move forward this month.

After the conclusion of price negotiations which is expected to be wrapped up by January-end, the agreements would go to cabinet committee on security for final clearance. The whole process can take more than three months as it has undergone stringent scrutiny from department of finance.

This would mean that they might be ready for CCS approval by the end of this financial year despite being in advanced stages.

The last major deal for this financial year would be the purchase of 384 MBDA advanced short range air to air missiles. The contract, which is part of upgraded Jaguar's weaponisation programme, is worth Rs 2000 crore.

Source

 

[rohit b3]

Im still keeping my fingers crossed, hoping this to be cancelled!

 

[jmj_overlord]

Im still keeping my fingers crossed, hoping this to be cancelled!

excuse me, but why ?

 

[rohit b3]

excuse me, but why ?

Sir, i may not be in the armed forces, or a science student to understand each and every tech experts talk about on here. But being a commerce student, i wouldn pay 150mil$/aircraft , even for a 5th generation aircraft today, let alone a 4.5th gen. A 4th gen Tejas costs 26mil$, a 4.5th gen Tejas MKll would cost about 50mil$ max? and a 5th gen FGFA costs 100mil$ which will escalate to 150mil$ in 2020.

 

[SajeevJino]

Sir, i may not be in the armed forces, or a science student to understand each and every tech experts talk about on here. But being a commerce student, i wouldn pay 150mil$/aircraft , even for a 5th generation aircraft today, let alone a 4.5th gen. A 4th gen Tejas costs 26mil$, a 4.5th gen Tejas MKll would cost about 50mil$ max? and a 5th gen FGFA costs 100mil$ which will escalate to 150mil$ in 2020.

Since The truth is One Rafale is equal to Five Tejas ..and about Man power their Salary , fuel , maintenance , ordnance , Hanger facility and so on ..do your Math

 

[rohit b3]

Since The truth is One Rafale is equal to Five Tejas ..and about Man power their Salary , fuel , maintenance , ordnance , Hanger facility and so on ..do your Math

Personally, i wouldn agree Rafale = 5x Tejas. Secondly, from my financial management mentality, i cannot digest the fact that they are paying 150mil$ for an aircraft, and buyin 126 of those. I wouldn say its better to buy 600 Tejas mk1 instead of 126 Rafales, but there has to be other options available. This is a simple loot and corruption.

PS- there was a big row over the cost of the 5th generation F-35, which is ranging from 150mil$ - 200mil$. Many countries have severly cut down their F-35 orders.

 

[SajeevJino]

Personally, i wouldn agree Rafale = 5x Tejas. Secondly, from my financial management mentality, i cannot digest the fact that they are paying 150mil$ for an aircraft, and buyin 126 of those. I wouldn say its better to buy 600 Tejas mk1 instead of 126 Rafales, but there has to be other options available. This is a simple loot and corruption.

PS- there was a big row over the cost of the 5th generation F-35, which is ranging from 150mil$ - 200mil$. Many countries have severly cut down their F-35 orders.

It' too hard to maintain 600 Air crafts ..also it lacks our Confidence over air Battle ..if we apply the same We can stop buying the Su 30 MKI and induct three of the Tejas for it.

I think you Should Follow http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/32861-know-your-rafale-43.html this thread and Know about The Rafale It's performance is over rated than the Cost


F 35 is a Different game these Nation will indict their F 35 Before 2017 and also Rafale F 3 Standard is more than equal To the F 35

 

[jmj_overlord]

It' too hard to maintain 600 Air crafts ..also it lacks our Confidence over air Battle ..if we apply the same We can stop buying the Su 30 MKI and induct three of the Tejas for it.

I think you Should Follow http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/32861-know-your-rafale-43.html this thread and Know about The Rafale It's performance is over rated than the Cost


F 35 is a Different game these Nation will indict their F 35 Before 2017 and also Rafale F 3 Standard is more than equal To the F 35

i would go with the performance even if it costs a bit. Tejas is a new fighter, but rafales have been proven in battlefield and is an excellent multirole aircraft. Also tejas i believe will be produced in 10-20 aircrafts per year. So it will take a long time to fill up the gap of mig 21. So induction of 126 rafale fighters is a good way to maintain the parity with our chinese and paki neighbours.......

 

[p2prada]

I wouldn say its better to buy 600 Tejas mk1 instead of 126 Rafales, but there has to be other options available.

That's the problem. Other options aren't there. F-16 has no future and the Americans won't provide ToT. F-18 has some future, but no ToT. Gripen is in direct competition with LCA, no point buying Gripen. Mig-35 is Russian and it is silly to buy more Russian aircraft. Typhoon is the only other option and it is more expensive than Rafale which MRCA proved.

The people in this forum love to compare LCA with Rafale, giving figures like 80% and whatnot. But take my word for it if you want, LCA is nowhere close to Rafale. And to get something like Rafale from a western country, you have to pay in western standards. Rafale will obviously eventually be cheaper than what the French spend to operate it in France.

Compare the Swiss evaluations for Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale. In terms of electronics, Gripen matches Rafale in most parameters, but it was still given very low scores. Scores that were even lower than what the Swiss consider is good for F-18C/D Hornet. And Gripen NG is easily better than what LCA Mk2 will be and that includes both load carrying capacity and combat radius.

PS- there was a big row over the cost of the 5th generation F-35, which is ranging from 150mil$ - 200mil$. Many countries have severly cut down their F-35 orders.

F-35 should end up being cheaper than Rafale from IOC onward if what LM says becomes true. Too many units are going to be built. Once non-NATO markets open up, LM can make a killing even if other partners cut down orders.

 

[sob]

Personally, i wouldn agree Rafale = 5x Tejas. Secondly, from my financial management mentality, i cannot digest the fact that they are paying 150mil$ for an aircraft, and buyin 126 of those. I wouldn say its better to buy 600 Tejas mk1 instead of 126 Rafales, but there has to be other options available. This is a simple loot and corruption.

PS- there was a big row over the cost of the 5th generation F-35, which is ranging from 150mil$ - 200mil$. Many countries have severly cut down their F-35 orders.

Rohit just try to calculate the cost of infrastructure for 600 aircraft vs 126 aircraft. IAF will go bankrupt trying to maintain 126 aircraft. If you add force multipliers like Mid Air Refuelers and AWACs then the cost goes up multifold.

And the main thing is that one AC is about to enter service in 12-14 months while the other has been in service for quite sometime.

 

[p2prada]

@rohit b3

Think about it this way. If you are given enough money to buy a BMW and then you go out and buy something lesser and then return the rest of the money, who is the one winning here?

IAF wanted 120-200 aircraft and they were given practically an unlimited budget. They chose the BMW. A wise decision and IAF did not waste money here. They bought something that they sorely need and something that aircraft like LCA Mk2 or others don't provide at all.

Thinking about money is fine during peace time, but when a war happens and you are lacking a certain capability that LCA doesn't provide then that will hit us hard.

 

[rohit b3]

It' too hard to maintain 600 Air crafts ..also it lacks our Confidence over air Battle ..if we apply the same We can stop buying the Su 30 MKI and induct three of the Tejas for it.

I think you Should Follow http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/32861-know-your-rafale-43.html this thread and Know about The Rafale It's performance is over rated than the Cost


F 35 is a Different game these Nation will indict their F 35 Before 2017 and also Rafale F 3 Standard is more than equal To the F 35

I said i "Would not" buy 600 Tejas mk1 instead of 126 Rafales. Like you said, it will take a long time to fill the Mig21 gap. Su-30MKI , we are making it at 65mil$ a piece. completely acceptable.

Thats the only thread on IDF i dont follow.. and Rafale at par with F-35? There's a reason Rafale is a 4.5th gen fighter and F-35 is a 5th gen...

 

[rohit b3]

Rohit just try to calculate the cost of infrastructure for 600 aircraft vs 126 aircraft. IAF will go bankrupt trying to maintain 126 aircraft. If you add force multipliers like Mid Air Refuelers and AWACs then the cost goes up multifold.

And the main thing is that one AC is about to enter service in 12-14 months while the other has been in service for quite sometime.

I never said buy 600 tejas mk1, i said i woudn buy...

 

[rohit b3]

@rohit b3

Think about it this way. If you are given enough money to buy a BMW and then you go out and buy something lesser and then return the rest of the money, who is the one winning here?

IAF wanted 120-200 aircraft and they were given practically an unlimited budget. They chose the BMW. A wise decision and IAF did not waste money here. They bought something that they sorely need and something that aircraft like LCA Mk2 or others don't provide at all.

Thinking about money is fine during peace time, but when a war happens and you are lacking a certain capability that LCA doesn't provide then that will hit us hard.

The thing is , you are judging Tejas mk2 , even before the prototype is out. Let them get the prototype ready, reveal the exact facts about its specifications and then we can conclude where it stands in comparision to Rafale.

My personal opinion is that, our defence industry takes unusually long time to come with with things...for eg. Arjun,Shivalik class Frigates,LCH , Tejas,etc... But honestly, ones they are ready , they all stand totally head to head with the best around the world. So i would totally give Tejas mk2 its chance ,otherwise its simple injustice.

and "practically unlimited budget" . Thats the problem. Our economy isnt goin too well, we have a limited annual defence budget, how can you give an unlimited budget to just one project to your airforce? Furthur, we are involved in soo many other ambitious projects....Tejas mk2, LCH, LOH, AMCA,DRDO AEWCs, AWACs India, NAL Saras,Apache Helicopters,Mid air refuellers,DRDO AURA,etc,etc. for the IAF alone

Giving out unlimited budgets just for one MMRCA project shows there is somethin wrong in the Top management

If you ask me my personal opinion, maybe i have said this before....go for 40 Tejas mk1, and 200 Tejas mk2 and make them in quick time. According to you it wont be equivalent to 126 Rafales, ok fair enough, accept our shortcomings and move on....and enter the 5th generation and involve ourselves more into the FGFA , AMCA programmes.

and another option, go for 40 more "Super Sukhois" along with 200 Tejas mk2(i think the original Tejas mk2 planned are 160?), if you wanna furthur cut down the shortcomings. Still more economical option.


Also we are not at war.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

That's the problem. Other options aren't there. F-16 has no future and the Americans won't provide ToT. F-18 has some future, but no ToT.

Does ToT helps ? In our case, how much has ToT helped our military/domestic aviation ? Even if we manufacture the entire aircraft from scratch in-house, how does that reduces our dependency on the foreign vendor from whom we source raw-materials as well manufacturing (tooling/machining/assembling) expertise ?

Even if, SCB for MKI-engines are grown from scratch in Koraput, how does reduce our dependence on Russia ? As long as a single raw material, sub-system, component, fabrication tech. etc. is dependent on foreign vendor, it is of little good if we manufacture the 90% systems in India (with ToT inputs from Russia) because, the AC cannot fly with 90% of components. Even after all the ToT, we continue to be at the mercy of foreign vendors.

Isn't it true that despite decades of absorbing ToT for different aircrafts, it did not help us one bit in our domestic programs? In short, zero self-sufficiency despite tens of billions paid so far in name of ToT. Even if domestic programs should not benefit from ToT for a different program, how consequential is being able to able minor customizations which could have been done by the vendor itself (within much lesser time). That too, at the expense of billions of dollars.

Why can't the original vendor do the same customization (integration of pods from Israel/France etc.) in less time & lesser cost ? Like what has been done with Catherine thermal imagers in newer T-90's ?

How wise is it to screen-out proven war-hogs (like F-18 E/F) at the initial levels, for the elusive ToT ? IMHO, ToT is the most overrated concept ever & highly over-hyped as a qualifying parameter for these aircrafts. Above all, we should not be paying through the teeth for something we will never get for real. Instead, invest the same in indigenous R&D, is my line of thinking.

Not sure how many countries with existential threats (lie S.Korea/Israel etc.) focus on ToT to this extent, at the expense of indigenous efforts. And, these countries have no less industrial base or technical expertise to absorb ToT's. Especially, in semi-conductors (avionics), Israel rules (next only to US/France). To similar extent, S.Korea is an industrial giant in its own right (be it ship-building or consumer electronics (non-military), still much better placed than India).

Just trying to understand. Specific case-studies would help me understand it better.

 

[p2prada]

The thing is , you are judging Tejas mk2 , even before the prototype is out. Let them get the prototype ready, reveal the exact facts about its specifications and then we can conclude where it stands in comparision to Rafale.

We already know what LCA Mk2 will do in comparison to Rafale. There is simply no comparison, especially in the aspects of endurance and payload.

My personal opinion is that, our defence industry takes unusually long time to come with with things...for eg. Arjun,Shivalik class Frigates,LCH , Tejas,etc... But honestly, ones they are ready , they all stand totally head to head with the best around the world. So i would totally give Tejas mk2 its chance ,otherwise its simple injustice.

Sorry, but you can be one of the crowd here and think what you want or you can think critically.

LCA Mk2 is just a 500-1000 Km aircraft with 5 tons of payload. Rafale is a 1500-2000 Km aircraft with 9.5 tons of payload. It is heavier and carries more avionics. It has two engines which provide it with twice the onboard electric power. There is a huge class difference between the two aircraft.

Google the Swiss evaluation.

and "practically unlimited budget" . Thats the problem. Our economy isnt goin too well, we have a limited annual defence budget, how can you give an unlimited budget to just one project to your airforce? Furthur, we are involved in soo many other ambitious projects....Tejas mk2, LCH, LOH, AMCA,DRDO AEWCs, AWACs India, NAL Saras,Apache Helicopters,Mid air refuellers,DRDO AURA,etc,etc. for the IAF alone

Giving out unlimited budgets just for one MMRCA project shows there is somethin wrong in the Top management

No, it doesn't. As I explained to tco in another thread, we can afford these projects, including MRCA. That's because these projects stretch out to 10 years or more and the costs are spread out across a decade for some projects (like MRCA) and across two decades for some others (like LCA, AURA and FGFA).

Also, a lot of these projects are being done one after the other so there is no clash of funds. After DRDO-CABS AEWC we will take up AWACS-India. After C-130 we will take up IL-214. After MKI we will take up FGFA. After Rafale we will take up AMCA and so on.

If you ask me my personal opinion, maybe i have said this before....go for 40 Tejas mk1, and 200 Tejas mk2 and make them in quick time. According to you it wont be equivalent to 126 Rafales, ok fair enough, accept our shortcomings and move on....and enter the 5th generation and involve ourselves more into the FGFA , AMCA programmes.

The current plan seems to be to get 123 LCAs inducted by 2022. That is quick.

and another option, go for 40 more "Super Sukhois" along with 200 Tejas mk2(i think the original Tejas mk2 planned are 160?), if you wanna furthur cut down the shortcomings. Still more economical option.

You mean 200 LCA + 200 LCA. That's not happening. Extremely counter-productive. IAF has plans to order 83 Mk2s.


Also we are not at war.[/QUOTE]

 

[SajeevJino]

I said i "Would not" buy 600 Tejas mk1 instead of 126 Rafales. Like you said, it will take a long time to fill the Mig21 gap. Su-30MKI , we are making it at 65mil$ a piece. completely acceptable.

Thats the only thread on IDF i dont follow.. and Rafale at par with F-35? There's a reason Rafale is a 4.5th gen fighter and F-35 is a 5th gen...

Let me clear ..tell me How we going to Fill the cap of MRCA ..and How we make it Blaster AF to Pakistan and able to Confront against Chinese AF

Are you saying that we can buy more No. of Su 30 MKI instead of That over rated Rafale . Some where in DFI i heard about India Housing variety of Air to Air Missiles to Confront against enemy Fighters .. as the same way


From Post No.9 P2prada Told about ,

Mig-35 is Russian and it is silly to buy more Russian aircraft.

again one more compared to western Fighters Russian Fighters Performance is way lesser ..here is the Claim

http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/postw2mj.htm


How can we say the F 35 is a Fifth Gen and Rafale F3 is 4.5 Gen ..the Currently Producing F 35 Performance are less Equal to Future Rafale F3


The Rafale T 50 LCA AMCA among the Most Favorited and most reliable Threads here in DFI

 

[p2prada]

Does ToT helps ? In our case, how much has ToT helped our military/domestic aviation ? Even if we manufacture the entire aircraft from scratch in-house, how does that reduces our dependency on the foreign vendor from whom we source raw-materials as well manufacturing (tooling/machining/assembling) expertise ?

ToT does not help us develop new technology directly. What it does is help our manufacturers learn new production techniques and help gain experience. This way we can develop newer technology by ourselves because we have people with experience.

Even if, SCB for MKI-engines are grown from scratch in Koraput, how does reduce our dependence on Russia ? As long as a single raw material, sub-system, component, fabrication tech. etc. is dependent on foreign vendor, it is of little good if we manufacture the 90% systems in India (with ToT inputs from Russia) because, the AC cannot fly with 90% of components. Even after all the ToT, we continue to be at the mercy of foreign vendors.

Very little comes from Russia. Like some forges, ejection seat and landing carriage. If we have to we can make it at home at a higher cost. But it is unnecessary. We are not at the mercy of Russia. But we are at the mercy of our international obligations. Tata will take you to court if you make a copy of the Nano. It is the same concept.

Isn't it true that despite decades of absorbing ToT for different aircrafts, it did not help us one bit in our domestic programs?

The exact opposite. LCA would never succeed otherwise.

People think we can use ToT from MKI engine, Jaguar airframe, Mig-21 weapons, Mirage-2000 radar to make our own aircraft. That's complete nonsense. All we can do is teach our manpower to build us a new aircraft with all the above technologies.

Why can't the original vendor do the same customization (integration of pods from Israel/France etc.) in less time & lesser cost ? Like what has been done with Catherine thermal imagers in newer T-90's ?

It all depends on the contract. Either HAL will integrate foreign components or the vendor will. IAF can chose anybody depending on who can do it at lesser time and cost.

How wise is it to screen-out proven war-hogs (like F-18 E/F) at the initial levels, for the elusive ToT ? IMHO, ToT is the most overrated concept ever & highly over-hyped as a qualifying parameter for these aircrafts. Above all, we should not be paying through the teeth for something we will never get for real. Instead, invest the same in indigenous R&D, is my line of thinking.

Without ToT we cannot operate our aircraft. We need ToT to manufacture the aircraft and make spares. We need ToT to maintain our aircraft as well.

Not sure how many countries with existential threats (lie S.Korea/Israel etc.) focus on ToT to this extent, at the expense of indigenous efforts. And, these countries have no less industrial base or technical expertise to absorb ToT's.

Both Korea and Israel focus a lot on ToT. Korea for example has made it very important that the company that wins the FX-3 bid also be a major contributor to the KF-X program. The Korean methods are a bit different from Indian methods for ToT. They are looking for a development partner + ToT. US will provide them with what they want because they are close. Israel does not have plans of making their own jet, but they still need ToT to maintain and fly their aircraft. They cannot weaponize a platform with their weapons without radar ToT. They cannot introduce new maintenance techniques without having blueprint of the aircraft and bus interface and so on.

 

[p2prada]

Su-30MKI , we are making it at 65mil$ a piece. completely acceptable.

This cost is incorrect. Current version of MKI doesn't exceed $50 Million. And the cost for LCA Mk1 is also only half-correct. The HAL figure of $26 Million has not taken engine into account. That's because GE has a separate contract with ADA for the engines. ADA will supply HAL with engines which they will install on LCA. The engine costs $4.5 Million.

For LCA Mk2, HAL will include the cost of engines since they are the ones who will assemble the engines.

Meaning the F-404 contract was a two party agreement between ADA and GE and HAL is only the integrator. F-414 contract is a 3 party contract between ADA/HAL and GE.

 

[Immanuel]

For the apparent TOT sacrifices being made with the Raffy we might as well get the SH International, it IMO is a far more reliable bird, the Raffy is turning out to be far too expensive with no additional advantages over the SH except a small increase in range and higher payload. SH is far cheaper to acquire and operate during a life time. Besides production rate of 42 per year allows us to have the SH in a very short time and with roughly half the price of Rafale we could get 200 birds for the same price as 126 Rafale currently being negotiated. With engine commonalities of the GE F414, we can get full tot on engine and Boeing or unkil won't have problem shifting entire SH line to India. The first 18 can be with partial upgrades suggested in SH International and the remaining can be with F414 EPE, new Large panel display, new MAWS, IRST built in CFTs etc. Already the SH International being tested has a 50% lower RCS than block 2, extended combat radius of 700NM with CFTs and weapons pods.
I think if we began discussion to shift SH line to India and seal deal, it can be done by end of year under FMS if they start right away. It's pretty straight forward. Even with slight delay, we'll get the first 18 faster than the Rafale due to high production rates.