Crisis in Tibet - Opression and Human rights violations by China

Discussion in 'Subcontinent & Central Asia' started by ahmedsid, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    I think this is over hyped, Afghanistan is far away from the USA, how can it be possible for intercepting the signals. May be this is over hyped by the USA themselves. This looks fishy to me.
    May be I wrong.
     
  2. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    Thank god! Ladakh is still controlled by India. But not just Ladhak, but Kalimpong, Shimla, and Arunachal Pardesh are all still controlled by India. Mao gave all these Tibetan lands to India as a gift just to keep Nehru/Gandhi connection with China. He knew that down the road this sensitive matter will help China become double times super power from all the angle. And nobody can dare to say or do anything against it. It's pretty sad but in ancient tibet there's this saying: "never trust communist." Parrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr In long run Nehru turn out to be nothing but nach bandar nach! :(
     
  3. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    I would go for a lunch with you and make you pay for your share though!
    How does that sound? he he he


    :)
     
  4. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    haha...am I imaging things or did you just ask me out?? :)
     
  5. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    No comments!
     
  6. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    oh wow...I wish more people were here to see this :)
     
  7. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    Keep dreaming! lol
    :blum3:
     
  8. mehwish92

    mehwish92 Founding Member

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    haha online dating, and that too on a defence forum!
     
  9. mehwish92

    mehwish92 Founding Member

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    Nehru was too naive. He tried to be nice and keep good relations with China. Because of this he betrayed Tibet. He even let India down. From what I heard the UNSC seat, or something like that, was initially offered to India. Nehru then declined and said it should be given to China. (He made a big mistake by going to UN for Kashmir dispute with Pakistan as well).

    Despite Nehru's efforts to maintain good relations with China, China treated India like trash, and it still does. And India just allows China to bully it around. India needs to wake up and start preparing for possible confrontations with China in the near future.
     
  10. yuebaili

    yuebaili Regular Member

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    It is a pity the Tibetan issue cannot be discussed objectively in China. Most Chinese do not know foreign languages. So they are easily fooled by commumist propaganda.

    我觉得非常遗憾西藏的问题不可以在中国客观地讨论。大多数中国人不懂外语,所以很容易被中共宣传骗了。
     
  11. yang

    yang Regular Member

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    yuebaili,I think you maybe some one who has some relationshiop with Chinese,or you want to pretend to be a Chinese to play tricks on people here.If my suspicion is right Li is your family name and your forename is yuebai, and your name in Chinese maybe "李月白"。

    I think you have been abroad for a long time ,and your information about China seldom be updated. The one who don't see things objectively is you, Tibet issues is Chinese internal issue,and there is nothig unconvinent for most Chinese can't understad English, in additional,there are still many people who can speak English here ,every year,there are over 5million youngsters who graduated from colleges,they can speak English more or less,and many people went aboard for further study. And you can't say we are people who be strickly controled and even can't get contact with people abroad, China is a nation playing an important role in the world,how can we isolate ourselves.

    yuebai, everything even we see it ourselves,that may not be true, we should use our logical thinking and alalyse the things by ourselves.
    If you haven't been China for a long time,you may come back and see how fast and how well we developed,if you come from Taiwan or a Southeast country,it worthwhile to have a look here, I am sure you won't be disappointed.
     
  12. yuebaili

    yuebaili Regular Member

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    爱国是一种好的事。但是我觉得你的民族主义令你不看清楚。我去年在中国旅游。我承认中国经济上的进步令我非常感动。我坐汽车从北海道上海。非常方便。我访问过很多西方人不访问的城市。两个星期的时间我只看了一个西方人。很少有会说外语的人。他们说他们不感兴趣学英语。这跟北京,上海的情况完全不一样。所以当然除了中共宣传他们别的理解不会有。
    奥巴马的演讲故意被翻译错了。你知道吗?

    It is a good thing to love your country. But I think your nationalism prevents you from seeing clearly. I was travelling in China last year. I admit I was very impressed by the economic progress in China. I went by bus from Beihai to Shanghai. Very convenient. I visited cities that westerners do not visit. For two weeks I only saw one westerner. Few people can speak foreign languages. People told me they were not interested in learning English. This is very different from cities like Shanghai or Beijing. So of course they know nothing but the CCP propaganda.
    Did you know that the speech of Obama was intentionally not correct translated?
     
  13. yang

    yang Regular Member

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    Thank you for your translation.

    I always know that :"complaints contributes nothing to the solution of the problem", and I admit the authority hide something in purpose ,but people are not blind here ,we all know the problem we suffering, just we don't know the correct statistics.
    We all know that freedom and demoncracy is very important to a country's development in the long run, and the gov are release its rights to its people gradually, may be we can discuss whether the process is a little slow.
    I maybe a little like the frog in well ,but I can contract with the world outside to a large extent, and that's enough for me,for I am not interested in the things that harm the nation.
    I am not a nationlist, what I know is that the fate of all our Chinese is closely related to China, and I want people outside can have a more objective perception on it .You are living abroad ,and you may have been to many foreign countries, how they see our Chinese ,why they know little about China is our fault.
    Once in my class ,our professor told us that if one day you can have a further study abroad,you should take some photos with you, and let the foreigners know what is real China.
    And you can't see all the chinese people have been brainwashed, we all know about the strict regulation here, but we should try to understand the issues, and try to find a better solution.
    Chinese people are not united as a whole,and demoncracy maybe get things worse, and the cost is so high that we can't bear,but maybe when China is more developed,we can reach the democracy, But now it maybe a disaster for China, see Thailand and Taiwan, they are so small and they are in a mess just because peoplel's different opinions, and how will China like if we stuck into the political crisis?

    One thing maybe good in a certain condition, the same with democracy.

    BTW,can you give me the link that China has translated the speach incorrectly?
     
  14. yuebaili

    yuebaili Regular Member

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    China Censors Obama's Speech

    BEIJING — The official Chinese translation of President Barack Obama's inauguration speech was missing his references to communism and dissent, while a live broadcast on state television Wednesday quickly cut away to the anchor when the topic was mentioned.

    This link is a typical example of how Chinese authorities try to hide the truth for Chinese who don´t speak foreign languages:

    McClatchy blog: China Rises

    So of course we can be sure that what Chinese people have learned about Tibet is nothing but lies and propaganda.
     
  15. F-14

    F-14 Global Defence Moderator Senior Member

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    2 stright qustions here are to be answered by the PRC

    wasnt Tibet an Independent nation?
    wasnt Tibet forcefully taken over by the PLA in a Blatent act of expansionist imperalism the very thing that communism says it oposes?
     
  16. yang

    yang Regular Member

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    Before I answer your two questions,please reply to my questions seriously.
    1,what is a nation?
    2.what is the symbol of a nation?
    3.what represent the national sovereignty?
    4.why many Indian friends here clamored to recapture Tibet,and claimed Tibet is a part of India?
    5.why the leaders in Tibet for almost 7 hundred years have to be conferred titles by Chinese emperor?(like “Japan” (today’s name of Japan(日本) ,its former name is Woguo(倭国)) is given by Wu Zhetian---- the only female emperor in Chinese history , the Japanese have to admit it for the gold medal which shows the history was found in Japan. You can also find many cultural relics in Tibet show its history. )
    6.why you think China is very mean and it is China betrayed China-India friendship, if you open the history book, you will find the chronicle,which shows that India try to divide Tibet from China after we two countries build relationship, before 1962 war, China’s then premier even flied to India to have a talk with Indian leader.You all believe the westerner’s lie that China invaded India, Vietnam, but why when we reach our purpose (deterrence), we would retreat to Chinese land.
    7.you say Chinese medias were strictly regulated by the gov,and what we read are all what the gov want we know.but why I have a feeling that I can look the outer world more objectively through medias than you in democracy countries?
    8. You think Dalai Lamma is a saint, but why he is so violent (in the eyes of more than 1.4 billion people), he tried to resist Beijing Olympic Games,and killed many innocent people ,why the kind hearted westerners say something for our Chinese?
    9,Have you seen the post here” ‘We killed all Chinese soldiers along the route’” http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/indian-sub-continent-china/964-we-killed-all-chinese-soldiers-along-route.html
    How proud they are?
    And you know why they can they can kill the well trained PLA so easily? Because our great Mr Mao, he set the order, no soldiers can shot to the Tibeten,even when they were killed rudely by Tibetans by knives, because of Mao’s good heart, we make a united China with 56 ethnic groups peacefully, but many soldiers lost their young lives(most of them are below 25).
    Then who is the hero, who is the terrorists?
    What is Nobel Peace prize? Tell you sincerely ,nobody here believe it here, including me .


    regards
     
  17. SammyCheung

    SammyCheung Guest

    ^ I don't think you'll convince anybody. Just like Hezbollah is fixated on Israel as its enemy, India is nowadays fixated on China as its enemy.

    I think it's probably too late to change this. The tipping point has been reached.

    Just like the internet has a massive effect on China's view of the outside world, India's view of China has been shaped by the internet. In fact, since India is a very very young country (something like 40% of the population is under 15), the effect is even more pronounced.
     
  18. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Just like no Chinese will be convinced into believing anything else than that preached by the CCP.
     
  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Tibet was not a part of India and therefore the issue of ‘recapture’ does not arise.

    I have not understood what you are stating about Japan and China. Are you stating that Japan was a part of China? If so, will Tibet be repeated on Japan because Chinese artefacts have been found in Japan?

    You can find many Indian artefacts in Tibet as also:

    Tibet geographic location throughout history has made it essentially the crossroads of Asia. The Middle Eastern influence from the West, Mongolian influence from the northeast and of course influence from the two most populous civilization in history: the Indians to the south and Chinese to the East. However Tibet still created and maintained its own distinct culture and language and also influenced these nations themselves and other smaller surrounding nations in return(some more that others). So the question I ask is which people had the largest influence on Tibetans throughout history and why? What examples are there of these peoples influence?
    Here are just a few foreign cultural influences in Tibetan culture, there are many others. Please list any other you can find.

    Middle Easterners:
    -Tibet has a small minority of Tibetan Muslims known as “Kyangsha or Gya Kachee“. “Tibetan Muslims…are largely of Kashmiri and Persian/Arab/Turkic descent through the patrilineal lineage and also often descendants of native Tibetans through the matrilineal lineage”.

    Mongolians:
    -Tibetan dress and clothes were adopted from the Mongolians.
    -”The actual title [of Dalai Lama] was first bestowed by the Mongolian ruler Altan Khan upon Sonam Gyatso in 1578″. Reincarnations of the Dalai Lama were many times supported by Mongol rulers.

    Indians:
    -”The most important event in Tibetan Buddhist history…was the arrival of the great tantric mystic Padmasambhava in Tibet in 774 at the invitation of King Trisong Detsen. It was Padmasambhava (more commonly known in the region as Guru Rinpoche) who merged tantric Buddhism with the local Bön religion to form what we now recognize as Tibetan Buddhism. In addition to writing a number of important scriptures (some of which he hid for future tertons to find), Padmasambhava established the Nyingma school from which all schools of Tibetan Buddhism are derived”.

    - Alot of Tibetan scholarly knowledge has been learned from Indians throughout Tibets Buddhist history, “In 1204 he Kashmiri master Shakyashribadhra arrived in Tibet accompanied by an entourage of Indian scholars…Tibetan scholars were inspired by this opportunity to learn directly from knowledgeable Indians”. From contacts like this Tibetans applied themselves to mastering Sanskrit grammar and other aspects of Indian linguistic and literary learning, whether Sanskrit was introduced by the Indians I am unsure of though but it seems most likely. Tibetans also learnt and developed much of what they know on Buddhism from the Indians, like most Buddhist states in Asia.

    -”The Tibetan writing system was based upon sixth or seventh century North Indian or Central Asian scripts that were derived from the more ancient Brahmi script (which, in an early form, had been used to inscribe many of the edicts of the famous Indian monarch of the third century BCE, Ashoka)”.

    Chinese:
    -”The King of Nepal and the Emperor of China offered their daughters to the Tibetan Emperor in marriage. The wedding to the Nepalese and Chinese princesses were of particular importance, because they played important roles in the spread of Buddhism in Tibet”. There is controversy in regards to which princess played a major or predominant role in the spread of Buddhism in Tibet. Chinese sources claim that it was the Chinese princess Wen Cheng whereas Tibetans claim that it was the Nepalese princess and not the Chinese whose influence was greater.
    - The Tibetans, like the Japanese, had loaned their pronunciation for numbers from the Middle Chinese pronunciation.

    I am afraid your history book which indicates that India was trying to divide is another figment of imagination that has been indoctrinated by the CCP on the Chinese people. The propensity of the CCP to fudge facts is too well recorded to be enumerated here. Yet, one would be the huge hoax played on the Chinese people about the SARS and when it could not be hidden, it was admitted! Even then the Chinese Health Minister, Zhang Wenkang, said there were but only a handful in Beijing. It was only when Jiang Yanyong, a CCP member and a PLA veteran and a nationally renowned surgeon wrote a letter in the media things were exposed. He claimed that health workers in military hospitals had been ordered to keep the epidemic a secret. (see Susan Jakes, Beijing’s SARS Attack, Time magazine 8 April 2003 and People Who Mattered 2003, Time Magazine, Asia Edition 29 December 2003).

    So, that much for what your government respect for facts!

    If you were so free and capable of obtaining information and facts in China, how is it that there is always a gag on the Internet whenever something happens, like in Xinjiang now? Why are the gags on Google?

    Dalai Lama never killed anyone. It was the repression by the Chinese that sparked the tensions as is happening in Xinjiang as we write.

    So Mr Mao or is it the Great Helmsman who prevented the PLA from shooting Tibetans? Really? He only killed a whole lot of people in the Cultural Revolution, just because he wanted to have fun by seeing an orgy in bloodshed being enacted? So, the Tibetans ‘rudely’ killed with knives? What did you expected them to do? Kill with clubs? Are they allowed to have firearms?

    Do you seriously mean to say you know not of the Nobel Prize? Again, it shows how your government keeps you all in the dark!

    As far as the guerilla you quoted of killing Chinese soldiers, what do expect him to do? Surrender or roll over and play dead?
     
  20. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    A brief account of Tibet, its origin, how it grew into a great military power and carved for itself a huge empire in Central Asia, then how it renounced the use of arms to practise the teachings of the Buddha and the tragic conseguences that it suffers today as a result of the brutal onslaught of the Communist Chinese forces is given in the following passages.


    Five hundred years before Buddha Sakyamuni came into this world i.e., circa 1063 B.C., a semi-legendary figure known as Lord Shenrab Miwo reformed the primitive animism of the Shen race and founded the Tibetan Bon religion. According to Bonpo sources there were eighteen Shangshung Kings who ruled Tibet before King Nyatri Tsenpo. Tiwor Sergyi Jhagruchen was the first Shangshung King.

    Shangshung, before its decline, was the name of an empire which comprised the whole of Tibet. The empire known as Shangshung Go-Phug-Bar-sum consisted of Kham and Amdo forming the Go or Goor, U and Tsang forming the Bar or Middle, and Guge Stod-Ngari Korsum forming the Phug or Interior.

    As the Shangshung empire declined, a kingdom known as Bod, the present name of Tibet, came into existence at Yarlung and Chongyas valleys at the time of King Nyatri Tsenpo, who started the heroic age of the Chogyals (Religious Kings). Bod grew until the whole of Tibet was reunited under King Songtsen Gampo, when tha last Shangshung King, Ligmigya, was killed.

    The official Tibetan Royal Year of the modern Tibetan calendar is dated from the enthronement of King Nyatri Tsenpo in 127 B.C. This lineage of Tibetan monarchy continued for well over a thousand years till King Tri Wudum Tsen, more commonly known as Lang Darma, was assassinated in 842 A.D.

    Most illustrious of the above kings were Songtsen Gampo, Trisong Detsen and Ralpachen. They are called the Three Great Kings.

    During the reign of King Songtsen Gampo (629-49) Tibet became a great military power and her armies marched across Central Asia. He promoted Buddhism in Tibet and sent one of his ministers and other young Tibetans to India for study. He first took a Tibetan princess from the Shangshung King as his wife and then obtained a Nepalese consort. After invading the Chinese Empire he also obtained a Chinese princess as one of his wives. The two latter wives have been given prominence in the religious history of Tibet because of their services to Buddhism.

    During the reign of King Trisong Detsen (755-97) the Tibetan Empire was at its peak and its armies invaded China and several Central Asian countries. In 763 the Tibetans seized the then Chinese capital at Ch'ang-an (present day Xian). As the Chinese Emperor had fled, the Tibetans appointed a new Emperor. This memorable victory has been preserved for posterity in the Zhol Doring (stone pillar) in Lhasa and reads, in part:

    "King Trisong Detsen, being a profound man, the breadth of his counsel was extensive, and whatever he did for the kingdom was completely successful. He conguered and held under his sway many districts and fortresses of China. The Chinese Emperor, Hehu Ki Wang and his ministers were terrified. They offered a perpetual yearly tribute of 50,000 rolls of silk and China was obliged to pay this tribute

    It was during his time that Samye, the first monastery in Tibet, was founded by Guru Padmasambhava, who also established the supremacy of Buddhism and coverted the indigenous deities into guardians of the Dharma. King Trisong Detsen also expelled the Chinese monk (Hoshang) and banished the Chinese Chan school of Buddhism from Tibet forever and adopted the Indian system. He also declared Buddhism as the state religion of Tibet.

    During the reign of King Ralpachen (815-36) the Tibetan armies won many victories and in 821-2 a peace treaty was concluded with China. The inscription of the text of the treaty exists in three places: One outside the Chinese Emperor's palace gate in Ch'ang-an, another before the main gate of Jokhang temple in Lhasa and the third on the Tibetan-China border at Mount Guru Meru. Eminent Tibetan scholars, Kawa Paltsek and Chogru Lui Gyaltsen, worked with Indian scholars, invited them to Tibet and prepared the first Sanskrit-Tibetan lexicon called the Mahavyutpatti.

    In 838 King Ralpachen's brother, Tri Wudum Tsen, ascended the throne. He tried to reinstate the Bon religion and persecuted the Buddhists. After his assassination by a Buddhist monk the kingdom was divided between his two sons. With warring princes, lords and generals contending for power the mighty Tibetan Empire disintegrated into many small princedoms and a dark period fell over Tibet during 842-1247.

    In 1073 Konchog Gyalpo founded the Sakya monastery. His son and successor, Sakya Kunga Nyingpo, formulated the tantric traditions of the great scholars Marpa and Drogme and founded the Sakya sect. The Sakya lamas grew in power and from 1254 to 1350 Tibet was ruled by a succession of 20 Sakya lamas. The Mongols, who invaded many countries of Europe and Asia, also invaded Tibet and reached Phenpo, north of Lhasa. However, Prince Godan, the ruling Khan, was converted to Buddhism by Sakpa Kunga Gyaltsen, popularly known as Sakya Pandita, and the invading force was withdrawn. The next Khan, Kublai, was also converted to Buddhism by Sakya Pandita's nephew and successor, Sakya Phagpa. In return, Kublai Khan gave recognition of full sovereignty over "the three provinces of Tibet : U-Tsang, Dhotoe and Dhome" to Sakya Phagpa.

    The influence of the Sakya priest-rulers gradually declined after the death of Kublai Khan in 1295. In 1358 the province of U (Central Tibet) fell into the hands of the Governor of Nedong, Changchub Gyaltsen, a monk of the Phamo Drugpa branch of Kagyud school, and for the next 86 years, eleven Lamas of the Phamo Drugpa lineage ruled Tibet.

    But, after the death of Drakpa Gyaltsen, the fifth Phamo Drugpa ruler, in 1434, power passed into the hands of the Rinpung family who were related to Drakpa Gyaltsen by marriage. From 1436 to 1566 the heads of the Rinpung family held power.

    Meanwhile, Tsongkhapa Losang Dragpa, one of the greatest scholars of Tibet, was born in 1357. He founded Gaden, the first Gelugpa monastery, in 1409 and began the Gelug lineage.
     

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