Countering cold start: Military to adopt new war concept

farhan_9909

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Description given of cold start doctrine in the article is faulty. Cold start doctrine is not meant to capture territory which India as it is is not interested in. What will India do with that territory.

The idea is to bring destruction upon Paki Army or part of it as a punishment.

The idea is to fight inside Pakistan and not allow Pakistan to cross Indian borders.
What is this punishing?
Will this mean PA will be damn scared of IA in future?or what is the reason behind punishing?

they would fight either win or loose.but dont you think this is somewhat funny of how will india penetrate the defense of pakistan and retreat back after few days

please make me clear that
what special weapon or training do you have

we have thousands of tanks deployed,artillary deployed,mrl deployed,half a million troops deployed,we have the long range radars on the border..including weapon locating one,few years before battle field radar are also developed by Nust similar to the indian rajendra if i am naming it correctly.to be mass produced soon,we have attack choppers,so how will india penetrate the border?




my personal understanding of CSD is

CSD will be limited to the LOC and usuall firing and PAF-IAF engagement.before the cease fire is declared if it ever happened.
 

Bhadra

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=farhan_9909;742787]Ok i am yet to understand this

what is the real reason behind CSD?

*Punishing pak army
*capturing land
*Breaking Pakistan
?
I also do not understand the same..

but I suppose and guess as per media reports and publications that the purpose of CSD is to deter a terrorist attack on India by Pakies under a nuclear umbrella by impressing upon Pakjabi Army that they will not be able to shag under their Nuclear Umbrella and hide behind their terrorists.. and dter Indian Army in spite of grave provocations.

Terrorist adventures will not go un - replied and unpunished...

India has no other motives towards a country known as Pakistan. Indians are quite happy without them.

CSD will be limited to LOC or can happen across the whole Border including from punjab front or even sindh?
This "limited to LOC" theory was shattered by India during 1965 and Pakistan tried to cross IB in 1971 without any success. So it is the options of India which are wide open.

how will they penetrate the defensive layer of PA?with thousands of Tanks,half a millions troops,dozens of MRL, or everything you mention related to modern day battle field?

since PA would be in defensive mode hence india would need atleast half a million or more troops for this
Indians and Indian Army knows how to penetrate. From where would you bring that strength when IA has already drawn your million troops nearer to the border. They are already fixed and trapped.


meanwhile you guys might also expect that Pakistan because of its geography can respond to a offensive attack very fast..since all the infra always is close to the border
That much better for IA and IAF to comprehensively destroy that. In Oder to achieve same PA and PAF will have to come much deeper and commit suicide..

But the cat is out of the bag... Tha PA is going to run away to escape destruction in the face of CSD as explained by you...
 
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Bhadra

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=farhan_9909;742793]What is this punishing?
Will this mean PA will be damn scared of IA in future?or what is the reason behind punishing?
Indian understanding, perhaps or INMO is that it is only the Pakistan Army and not the civilian population in Pakistan are interested in continuing thousand cuts war and inflicting thousand years war with India. Till the PA maintains a dominant position and policy making position in Pakistani polity, peace with Pakistan seems to be difficult and impossible. Hence to make the responsible civilian institution more powerful, it is necessary that Pakistan Army is given severe jolts so that its power within Pakistan is weakened and terrorist are deterred from indulging into misadventure and terrorist games.

No one wants PA destroyed. That is not possible. But PA should not be able to deride all civilian institutions and carry out Bombay attacks without owning a responsibility for it. After all Pakistan should have an Army and Not Pakistan Army having a stooge Nation as their fiefdom.

That is what is dangerous for the security of India and Pakistan.

they would fight either win or loose.but don't you think this is somewhat funny of how will india penetrate the defense of pakistan and retreat back after few days

please make me clear that
what special weapon or training do you have
Indias special weapons and training is its democracy, Secularism and a faith in the country and system.

we have thousands of tanks deployed,artillary deployed,mrl deployed,half a million troops deployed,we have the long range radars on the border..including weapon locating one,few years before battle field radar are also developed by Nust similar to the indian rajendra if i am naming it correctly.to be mass produced soon,we have attack choppers,so how will india penetrate the border?
Sab dekhate rah jaoge jab loot Chalega Banjara...




my personal understanding of CSD is

CSD will be limited to the LOC and usuall firing and PAF-IAF engagement.before the cease fire is declared if it ever happened.

Very Pakistan like understanding but alas it is wrong....
May be this time even USA may not intervene to save Pakistan...
 

Decklander

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The aim of CSD is neither to decimate PA nor dismember Pak nor gain of Territory PERMANANTLY.
The aim of CSD is to start the war in shortest possible time across the whole border with 10 IBGs with very rapid mobilisation and attacks across international border to capture the PA in its offensive defensive positions, encircle them and destroy them. At the same time IAF & IN will strike Pak to completely cripple its industrial infrastructure and war making potential. At no stage will the IBGs progress beyound 50 kms deep inside Pak but will force PA to commit its ARN & ARS early in the battle which will give our strike corps a very good ability to completely destroy and humiliate PA like we did in 1971 war. The basic meaning of this so called punitive strike is to ensure that PA gets humiliated in Pak and is unable to stop disintegration of Pak under the weight of its own divergences.
The territory gained thru CSD will be used as a bargain for repatriation of POK as part of ceasefire agreement. If Pak refuses to give POK back to India, The Pak territory so captured will become part of India and in such a case the strike corps will be used to completely decimate Pakistan.
 

DivineHeretic

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What is this punishing?
Will this mean PA will be damn scared of IA in future?or what is the reason behind punishing?

they would fight either win or loose.but dont you think this is somewhat funny of how will india penetrate the defense of pakistan and retreat back after few days

please make me clear that
what special weapon or training do you have

we have thousands of tanks deployed,artillary deployed,mrl deployed,half a million troops deployed,we have the long range radars on the border..including weapon locating one,few years before battle field radar are also developed by Nust similar to the indian rajendra if i am naming it correctly.to be mass produced soon,we have attack choppers,so how will india penetrate the border?




my personal understanding of CSD is

CSD will be limited to the LOC and usuall firing and PAF-IAF engagement.before the cease fire is declared if it ever happened.
The punishing is to decimate the PA/PAF forces to the extent that they loose whatever offensive capability they currently have. And that means the three principle corps of PA. The confidence of the PA must be crushed, and brutally at that.

The IA and GOI believes (rightly or wrongly is another matter) that Pakistan continues to support hostile groups against India based on its perceived sense of security due to possession of its nukes (which some internet terrorists and a certain Agency believe gives them a free ticket all times) and their conventional capability to stall Indian armed forces.

There is a feeling within PA and the ISI that they can get away with anything. There is a need to remove this sense of security and the CSD is the syringe to inject this dose of reality.

You may dispute this and refuse to accept the viability of such a strike, but that, as with all your previous statements is worthy of CRAP.

And you do realise that our Army is just 1.5 times (1,060,000 vs 700,000) yours, our AF is just 2 times yours, and yet we spend as much as 6 times ( excluding our strategic budget amd the R&D budget) as much as you on defence.

Where do you think this money goes?
Quick answer: this money goes into capability building. A low funded army is just that, a low funded, less capable army. Those additional $35-40 billion improves our capabilities faster in a year than you can in 5. Same goes for China vs India.

Some people compare the available/rumoured specs of the T-90 vs Alkhalid and declare that T-90 is no match for the Pak tank. Just think logically for a second.

Why would an army, with a budget a multiple times larger than his adversary, with access to the best platforms in the world, would choose an inferior tank? That too a force which will aquire IFVs worth some $10-12 Billion. With that budget we can simply junk the T-90s if they are inferior. Beats common sense. The people involved in the aquisition would be charged with treason if our tanks are found to be inferior.

The only reason you are ahead in artillery is because the IA had the ghost of Bofors haunting the political class. But that too is about to be changed.

As for Attack helis, we can put 9 gunships for every one you can put. And in any case yours are old Cobras, and anyone with knowledge of second hand equipment will tell you, their availability is low at the best of times.

As for Radars, we see right upto Iran, yet you still claim to be able to strike Indian Airbases, why so? Anytime the IAF powers up the THD-1955 radars to full, we can spot any and all AC flying in Pak airspace. The Swordfish is another story altogether.

There is clear assymetry in force capabilities, even if force numbers are relatively similar. And for all your bluster, this difference will only grow.
 

Bhadra

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The aim of CSD is neither to decimate PA nor dismember Pak nor gain of Territory PERMANANTLY.
The aim of CSD is to start the war in shortest possible time across the whole border with 10 IBGs with very rapid mobilisation and attacks across international border to capture the PA in its offensive defensive positions, encircle them and destroy them. At the same time IAF & IN will strike Pak to completely cripple its industrial infrastructure and war making potential. At no stage will the IBGs progress beyound 50 kms deep inside Pak but will force PA to commit its ARN & ARS early in the battle which will give our strike corps a very good ability to completely destroy and humiliate PA like we did in 1971 war. The basic meaning of this so called punitive strike is to ensure that PA gets humiliated in Pak and is unable to stop disintegration of Pak under the weight of its own divergences.
The territory gained thru CSD will be used as a bargain for repatriation of POK as part of ceasefire agreement. If Pak refuses to give POK back to India, The Pak territory so captured will become part of India and in such a case the strike corps will be used to completely decimate Pakistan.
Where are the nuclear threshold in a scenario described by you ?

Where will you stop and pause ?
 

Bhadra

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My querry to the memebrs participating in this thread ?

Indian Army almost maulled PA in 1971 ?

After that did it become weak or gained strenghth...

Has any one seen the civilian Benzir Bhutto whipping slogans of "Shah Rug" and Azadi ? She is one who intensified insurgency in Kashmir... !!!

Present Talibans are a creation of Benzir Bhutto ?

Do civilian rule in Pakistan necessarily means peace ?
 

binayak95

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Where are the nuclear threshold in a scenario described by you ?

Where will you stop and pause ?
Read the posts and some other related threads. The IA will not go beyond 50-100kms.It will encircle PA so that they are unable to use nukes. If they do, the will be wiping out their own army.
 

Decklander

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Where are the nuclear threshold in a scenario described by you ?

Where will you stop and pause ?
I have repeatedly posted here many times that Pak is now relying more on Nuke deterrance for its defence than conventional power due to lack of finaces and crippling conditions of its economy. The nuke threshold will be crossed the moment our first IBG breaks thru the PA defences. This is not just my own assesment but also that of majority of our armed forces topbrass. as I had posted earlier, the decision to strike Pak will also mean a decision for nuke strike at a time when needed. Within PA this realisation has set in that given the formidable conventional superiority of Indian Armed Forces over that of PA and given the proven nuke delivery systems of India compared to untested duds of PA and compared to the number of nukes which India has, Pak is in no position to win any kind of war with India unless it accepts to parish in doing so.
This gets reflected by the new dirxn which has been given by PA to India Pak relationship with PA Gen Kiyani accepting trade with India as priority. Whole of Pakistan knows that our build up of new weapons and war fighting ability is not directed towards Pak but against China and they are very happy with that.
 

Ray

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The nuclear threshold is based on the selection of objective.

Those that would be strategically or politically be unacceptable to the enemy, would be areas, if penetrated, overstepping the threshold.

Cities and capture of industrial and military complex that threaten the adversary reputation and capability to wage war are centres of gravity that would activate a nuclear war.

For instance, Capture of desert areas would not affect the threshold but areas that open up avenues to industrial and military complex or cities/ town of importance (strategic objectives). even if such areas, the capture of which open up the avenue is immaterial per se, it would cause a totter towards the crossing of the nuclear threshold.

However, I will concede that this is easier said than can be visualised with unimpeachable certainty!

Technically, the shallow objectives are the ones that do not cross the nuclear threshold, the intermediate objectives open up the avenues and the terminal objective would cause a nuclear conflagration!
 
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Singh

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My querry to the memebrs participating in this thread ?

Indian Army almost maulled PA in 1971 ?

After that did it become weak or gained strenghth...

Has any one seen the civilian Benzir Bhutto whipping slogans of "Shah Rug" and Azadi ? She is one who intensified insurgency in Kashmir... !!!

Present Talibans are a creation of Benzir Bhutto ?

Do civilian rule in Pakistan necessarily means peace ?
1. Bhutto didn't intensify Azadi, she used it as a rhetoric. It was she, who signed an accord with Rajiv Gandhi, which squashed the Khalistani insurgency.
2. The folks who did ratcheting up of the Azadi were the establishment, who got her deposed soon after
3. "Taliban" are the creation of circumstances. In a post-Soviet world, Afghanistan was dragged into a prolonged civil war. The "Taliban" came and restored some order, hence their initial acceptance.
4. Civilian rule in Pakistan means jack shyt. We need to deal with PA and ISI.
 

Abhijeet Dey

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Will India be able to get back its territory i.e. Pakistan Occupied Kashmir? Or in case of any conflict with Pakistan the indian army will return back along Line of Control. :confused:
 

sesha_maruthi27

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Now then why does this small piece of news which says America saved India from a pakistani nuclear attack and India is afraid of pakistan as she would nuke India?

Why should India fear?

As soon as the Indian Radars pic up a missile launch at India, we would fire our missile and one small missile, may it be PRITHVI or BRAHMOS is enough to send pakisatn to stonage and why the hell people say that India fears pakistan?
 

Decklander

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As of now we have LOC in J&K and International border after that. In case of CSD, the whole border with Pak will become LOC.
 

Bhadra

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Read the posts and some other related threads. The IA will not go beyond 50-100kms.It will encircle PA so that they are unable to use nukes. If they do, the will be wiping out their own army.
Ok I will read the posts...
Ok read all..

My friend what is the distance of Lahore from the border..

Can you tell me how far nearest is Rahim yar khan from the Border....
Tell me what is the nearest distance of Muzzarrabad from the Indian border...

How far is Sulemanke HW ??


Do not bullshit me with that 50 - 100 km notion of yours...
 

Bhadra

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Now then why does this small piece of news which says America saved India from a pakistani nuclear attack and India is afraid of pakistan as she would nuke India?

Why should India fear?

As soon as the Indian Radars pic up a missile launch at India, we would fire our missile and one small missile, may it be PRITHVI or BRAHMOS is enough to send pakisatn to stonage and why the hell people say that India fears pakistan?
Easier said than done ??
 

Bhadra

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1. Bhutto didn't intensify Azadi, she used it as a rhetoric. It was she, who signed an accord with Rajiv Gandhi, which squashed the Khalistani insurgency.
2. The folks who did ratcheting up of the Azadi were the establishment, who got her deposed soon after
3. "Taliban" are the creation of circumstances. In a post-Soviet world, Afghanistan was dragged into a prolonged civil war. The "Taliban" came and restored some order, hence their initial acceptance.
4. Civilian rule in Pakistan means jack shyt. We need to deal with PA and ISI.

Bhuttoes, the father and duaghter caused greatest harm to India Pak relations...

That is what is most rudimentory India Pak relations...

PA had a hostile posture towards India but they do not contest elections..

They fight wars...

and their positions and prestige as also domestic positions is at stake ...

PA is negotiable...

It is the likes of Bhuttoes who are demagogues and would do any thing to make their military fight so that military looses and they win elections...

That is what is the Bangladesh story all about...

I rest my case here...
 

Bhadra

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Will India be able to get back its territory i.e. Pakistan Occupied Kashmir? Or in case of any conflict with Pakistan the indian army will return back along Line of Control. :confused:
Well India could have done that in 1948...
But in that case Nehru protegee Abdullaha would have lost elections and valley would not be a deciding factor in J&K as all on the other side of Pir Punjal are Sudnas and Punchies and Punjabies ... nothing common with valley Kashmiries...

Maharajah would have won as Sudans and Punchies are more like Dogras rather than Kashmiries..
 

Bhadra

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As of now we have LOC in J&K and International border after that. In case of CSD, the whole border with Pak will become LOC.


But 1965 did not convert the IB into LOC when India crossed at many places...

OR let it be ...more the merrier..... it is as difficult for India as for Pakistan... India would be able to mange but not Pakistan...

When has Pakistan valued and kept to the treaties and agreements including Shimla Agreement...
 

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