Countering Chinese influence in the Subcontinent

Discussion in 'Subcontinent & Central Asia' started by Rage, May 21, 2009.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    A Definition of Civilisation

    A Definition Of Civilization
    by Philip Atkinson


    All Human achievements are first thoughts before they become things. So the creations of communities such as cities, governments, armies, as well as communal achievements such as conquests and discoveries— everything that goes to make a civilization — must spring from a community's thoughts. Hence:

    A Civilization: is a community that dominates all other communities by violence.

    A Community: is that group of people sharing a common understanding—a communal understanding— who reveal themselves by using the same language, manners, customs and law, which is their tradition.

    Communal Understanding: is that single understanding allowed by the set of values common to each member of a community. For example it is this influence that decided one community to persecute the scientist Galileo and suppress his notions, while another community to honour the scientist Isaac Newton and embrace his notions. It controls the community.

    Expressed And Refined By Conversation
    Communal Understanding exists, as it is expressed, in the unique language of the citizens, who mould it by their conversation.

    Conversation: is the daily expression and exchange of individual opinions; a mechanism that refines communal understanding by promoting popular, while suppressing unpopular, notions. That is, all those ideas which match common feelings of right and wrong, will be repeated and magnified into reasons to act, while those which receive little or no support will inevitably be ignored; which makes conversation the ideas filter, or the mind, of the community.

    A Communal Mind: is similar in operation to an individual mind, except that audible conversation replaces silent thoughts; but the mechanism of understanding is the same—ideas, expressed in words, which are filtered by a code of values to determine which should become reasons for action. If a man is an irrational vegetarian crank whose conversation is mainly tirades against imaginary persecutors, then it is this process that will decide the man's future— whether as a despised social outcast, or as an absolute monarch, like Hitler. This does not mean that everyone believes what is popular, but unpopular concepts are ignored. Consequently:

    1. By sharing the same process of thought as individuals, communal minds are subject to the same shortcomings of understanding as individuals:

    i. Understanding appears only after the formation of a basic set of values (morality), which become an essential and immutable part of the creature.

    ii. Personality As the understanding of an individual confers a personality, so does the understanding of a community, and this the culture of the community.

    iii. Honesty depends upon their nature, if unselfish, they will revere truth; otherwise truth will be discarded in favour of convenience. (See the two modes of communities.)

    iv. Sanity may be lost, a graphic example being the Nazi phenomenon, when a whole nation behaved like a lunatic.

    v. Senility may occur as the organ that allows understanding fails; in the individual it is a corruption of the brain, and in a community it is a corruption of tradition. (see the difference between Insanity and Senility .)

    2. As words are the currency of thought, the use of language is critical to both private and public understanding, with the particular choice of words revealing the nature of an author's understanding. So the nature of the literature published by a community must reflect the nature of that community's understanding. Hence the history of a community's literature must be the history of that community's understanding.

    3. As the nature and concerns of communal conversation are echoed by the media, the media can be considered the mirror of the mind of our society, with the character displayed by the media being the character of our civilization.

    4. All intelligence has a memory, and communal memory is made up of the manners, customs, language, laws, and beliefs: the tradition of the community, which must be maintained by succeeding generations.

    The Strength Of An Understanding is a function of the knowledge, determination and ability to think clearly of that understanding; and is revealed by the understanding's ability to assert itself. As an understanding can only assert itself over other understandings by violence, or its threat, this is why the history of humanity is the violent resolution of opposing understandings —war. Hence:

    1. The Wealth And Achievements obtained by communal understanding are dependent upon the successful use of violence, or its threat. 'Pax Romana' only existed as long as the Ancient Romans were willing and able to inflict superior violence upon their enemies.

    2. A Community That Recoils From Violence is a community whose understanding has become senile and is thus doomed.

    A Simple Example of the creation and development of a Communal Understanding (a community) can be found in the book "The Great Trek" by Oliver Ransford. This history of the Boers describes how these people came together and formed a communal understanding, expressed in its own unique language —Afrikaner. It also reveals the essential role of violence necessary for the Boers to assert themselves among other communities. Indeed Boer tradition celebrates victories like Vegkop and Blood River as of crucial and lasting significance.

    *************************

    Interesting, what?

    You feel that India of today has nothing to be proud about, while you have.

    I would not comment. However, read the above and what I append below and I will leave it to you and other posters to decide that while you feel India has nothing to rave about, one wonders if China is a shining star!

    I dare say the Cultural Revolution, Tienanmen Square, Repression of the Falun Gong, Tibetans, Uighurs, the destruction of culture, traditions, language, religion of indigenous people in history as the Chinese Empire bulldozed its way toward South and East China are indication of civilisation. Indeed, the may be; but rather repressive and extraordinary that it was similar to the Holocaust, except that unlike the Jews who were exterminated, the indigenous people of China were not totally exterminated. If that is Civilisation, then that is something a total horrendous Wow!

    A great civilisation as you claim is of China had differentiated some of its population as Barbarians.

    Imagine, they were given generic names in the Chinese classics and histories: the Yi barbarians to the East, the Man to the South, Rong to the West and Di to the North.

    Until the 1930s, the names of the outgroups (wai ren) were commonly written in characters with the animal radical: the Di, a northern tribe were linked to the dog; the Man and Min of the South were characterised with reptiles; the Qiangs were written with a sheep radical. This reflected the Han Chinese conviction that civilisation and culture were linked with humanity; alien groups living outside the pale of Han society were regarded as inhuman savages.

    The custom of sharply distinguishing between the inner and outer people went along with the calling China the Middle Kingdom (zhong guo) , which began by ruling the Central plain (zhongyang) in North China. Rather than using outright military conquest, the theory of ‘using the Chinese ways to transform the barbarians (yongxiabianyi)’ was promulgated. By cultural absorption or racial integration through intermarriage, a barbarian could become a Han Chinese (Hanhua).

    Now, that is some civilisation I must say!

    Please spare us your homilies and whitewash.

    We are also educated lest you felt otherwise!
     
  2. Energon

    Energon DFI stars Stars and Ambassadors

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    Don't be silly. Modern India is unique in the fact that it is the only post colonial impoverished developing nation who has managed to form a stable union through an institutionalized democratic process; an otherwise untenable achievement for most other contemporary societies in the current context. I don't know if you're actually able to grasp the magnanimity of such an achievement.
     
  3. xixihaha

    xixihaha Guest

    My Experiance While China Visit. Its Worth Visiting Place - Reliance Mobile (CDMA & GSM) - Discussion Forums
    Usually I am not the type who speaks too much about my experiances but with RIMWEB I think there are many members who are sensible enough to share my experiances with them.

    One need not to give any introduction of this asian dragon as globally we are compared with china for its size, population and calibre, also for social and economic problems.

    Ofcourse I visited only 3 cities in China and it can never give any one a total idea of what they are and why they are so. What we might be knowing a bit but why is largely unknown due to various reason few of them are that we think that we are far ahead of china or may be we do not want to accept the fact that they are far ahead of us.

    Aparently china is just a country with far superior infrastructure. Indeed they have infrastructure we are no where nearer.

    Just to give an example, I saw total 3 airports (Guanzhou, Beijing, Shanghai) , all of them were so huge that our bombay or Delhi airports are not even 1/4th of them. If you see quality of work and work culture, they have reached far.

    I travelled by train (Beijing to Shanghai), 1600 KMS, in just 12 hours. It was non stop train departing at 1919 PM and reaching 0721 AM. Both times were within minute variations. While travelling I saw that they have trains like us too. Wooden berths, over crowded etc. But over all station management was far superior than us. Only passengers are allowed on platform. Thats why they can manage it better.

    Over all cost of living in China is much higher than us. FOr example 600 ml wate bottle in super market will cost about 1.5 RMB (1 RMB = Rs. 6 , Approx) and same bottle will cost between 5 to 10 RMB outside. Beer was cheaper than water.

    Average minimum salary is about 80 RMB / Day. This is government regulation and it is followed atleast in urban areas. I dont know about rural areas. I visited 2 factories and saw that their factories are much cleaner (Over all its very clean country), well organized and people with high productivity.

    Places I visited, I saw that of total work force atleast 35-45% were women. Overall women participation in economic activities is much higher. On other hand they have male-female ratio as adverse as ours 937 female against 1000 male. This figure is told by guide so I dont know how genuine it is. They too prefer baby boy over girl child.

    But chinese people are very beautiful. Atleast as per them people who are origially chinese. People with mongol blood are not so beautiful. They got excellent dressing sense and are very professional. Best part is even if they cheat you, they will be very point blank, they will not tell you why fellow business person is cheaper or will never rundown competetor. This is one thing we need to learn. TO give you an example, I bought 1 MP4 player of 1 GB. Usually cheap chinese players have hacked memory and when they say 1 GB. It is usually 1 Giga bit. not 1 gigabyte. I met manufacturer who quoted me US $ 35 for 1 GB (Genuine memory size) but in market it was available for US $ 30 (Hacked memory) nbut genuine manufacturer will only say we cant be so cheap because our quality is different. THey will not utter a single word why they cant go so low. BEAWARE WHILE BUYING IT IN INDIA TOO.

    Cellular services there are just superb but atleast 4-5 times expensive than India. Even incoming is charged in CHina. Prepaid incoming in home city (not circle) could be around Rs.3-5 per minute so for out going. Roaming charges are almost twice as much. Two companies which are there in China, china unicom and china mobile.

    China Mobile is government company with GSM network and China Unicom is privately owned company with CDMA and now GSM network too. China Unicom is more expensive than Mobile and now they too emphasise on GSM rather than CDMA. Their CDMA network was as good as GSM, because I was roaming on CDMA network and had China Mobile Prepaid GSM sim, given by my tour operator with 30 RMB balance. China mobile seems to be too big then China Unicom. I was surprised to see China Mobiles "MOBILE NETWORK WAN" nearer to exhibition ground, when I inquired they said, incase of emergencies of when there is crowd, they setup temporary network cells so that network is not congested. I asked about the same for CDMA network, they said they have not seen.

    Language is very big issue for foreigners, when you go to hotel, every hotel has their card in chinese language, which passenger must pick up and keep with them, else there is no way one can reach back hotel by taxi. Unless if you are too lucky and find someone knowing and understanding our english, who translate and explain it to taxi driver. But at the same time there is no social devide due to english. We have created big social devide due to language. I mean we think that one who knows english is superior to one who does not. Infact due to this type of attitude I have seen many people who do not prefer to communicate with people who does not know english. In china they too have 3 language and 20 dialect. Not as many as us. Also due to lack of english knowledge brain drain from china is far less than us. Here I am not intend to underestimate importance of English in our country but brains are not only with english sopeken people. It is that our systems gives more opportunities to english spoken people and that is the reason )Probably) there are many innovative and capable people could not reach to main stream easily. Here mainstream is people who can influence over all system decisions.

    Another thing which was great to learn from them was they were not ashamed of their limited or no english knowledge. I met a CEO of small company (as per them) of about 500 crore turn over, that gentleman took 3 minutes to tell me that they are using magnet in their product. He took out his PDA, type it in chinese and then will show me tranlation "MAGNET". Even in exhibition wwhich is named as CHINA EXPORT COMODITY TRADE FARE" where no localites are allowed to enter. Foreign visitors with passports are only allowed, there you dont find many people who can speak english as good as us.

    I think this is my longest post till now on RIMWEB. WIll continue further if members are interested to know more and ofcourse what I write here is my point of view. Differrences are inevitable.

    I welcome your questions and querries, I will try to reply if I have seen or observed
     
  4. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    1.your ancestors' glory is not your glory.
    people's respect for you ancestors achivements is not the respect for you.
    on the Contary, if you are too shitty, people will just feel pity that such a glory ancestor have such shitty offsprings.


    2. both India and CHina had contributed little for the advance and development of humankind civilizaiton,after industrialization era. don't you indian feel it a shame ? I did feel it a shame to CHinese.
    Chinese have 1.3 billion people ,but what chinese did for human civilizaition after industrializition era?
    UK had Newton and invented steamers. USA sent human on the moon. Russia sent the first human into space. European invented telegraph...etc.....but what chinese did?
     
  5. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Badguy both civilizations were going thru very difficult times while the westen world was industrializing it is too easy to generalize.
     
  6. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    it is really a shame to live on the acestors's glory.
    I don't know how indians feel like the current position of indian civilization.

    however, I do think chinese should work hard to catch up with the west,instead of just boasting chinese ancestor's glory all day and all night.
     
  7. xixihaha

    xixihaha Guest

  8. advaita

    advaita Regular Member

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    Someone in the forum once asked me how Islamic Civilization and Chinese Civilization are similar. I didnt bother to answer..... I had my reasons.

    Ray sir over so many posts you have very clearly pointed out why they are so.

    Both these plants are like indigo plantation. And the Chinese are especially proficient.

    Though I am sure I differ from you about the US not being a civilization. To me Past, Present (if there is any) and the Future coexist all times and all at once.....and i have my reasons to believe so.....and my assessment is that Chinese will not be able to overtake the US anytime in next 100 years in terms of civilization......(economically there is no doubt of course).

    My Obsessive Compulsive Order is w.r.t. India. We are taking somewhat longer then what I would like it to. The individual enterprise is great but our institutions of civilizations are under an unprecedented challenge.

    Last time caste structure caused us to loose out on a better defence. This time economics challenges are much too strong. And till we can better the economic challenges I just hope we have a fail safe defence. After all we are the last remaining Pagan civilization in this godforsaken world.
     
  9. chathurang

    chathurang New Member

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    Does india have any stratergy at all be it in srilanka,nepal,afhganistan,burma,bangladesh....I think they are just playing blindly,just making all the stupid moves and caring less of the trade prospects or military relation.We need to revive our policies ,it sucks it is not doing good to us ,it is just suffocating our people amd making us more lazy.It is good to be a part of democracy,but too much of politics and internal conflicts .There is a saying it goes something like this Too much of sweet kills you
     
  10. IBRIS

    IBRIS Senior Member Senior Member

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    Nepal: Surkhet Air Strip for Indian Air Force, Target Tibet

    How will China react to the fresh agreement made in between the Government of Nepal and India that allows the Southern neighbor, China’s arch rival, to construct an Air Base for the Indian Air Force in Surkhet?

    The Jana Disha Daily, the Maoists’ Party mouth piece dated December 7, 2009, claims that in the consultative meeting held between the representatives of the Government of India and Nepal, December 4-7, 2009, Kathmandu, the Nepali side has provided a clear go-ahead signal to India to construct the Air-Strip for the Indian Air Force.

    It was earlier reported that India has already built air-strips deep inside Bhutan and an air-strip in Surkhet of Nepal will serve the Indian security interests in a much more enhanced manner, say experts.

    As per the agreement the government of Nepal will have to allocate some ten hectares of lands in the area to construct the Air Strip.

    It was reported that during the visit of Nepal’s Defense Minister Bidya Devi Bhandari to New Delhi in July 2009, Mrs. Bhandari had requested India to construct the Air-Strip for Nepal Army.

    “The very idea of constructing an air belt in Surkhet is basically not a Nepali brain. Instead, it is the Indian mind to build an air strip right inside Nepal from where the Indian regime, should an imaginary war with China becomes a reality by 2012 as claimed by Bharat Burma, an Indian defense analyst, could pounce upon Tibet that adjoins the Nepalese border”, claim Nepal’s analysts.

    Surkhet is close to the tri-junction, Kalapani, where China meets India in Nepali territory.
    Nepal’s defense analysts claim that the Indian Army can strike the heartland in Tibet as and when India and China go to war.
    How China reacts to this "benevolent" Nepal, gesture made in favor of India will have to be watched.
    2009-12-07 09:04:06
    Telegraph Nepal : Nepal: Surkhet Air Strip for Indian Air Force, Target Tibet

    http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2009/12/how-will-china-react-to-surkhet-air.html
     
  11. IBRIS

    IBRIS Senior Member Senior Member

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    India to resume military cooperation with Nepal

    Kathmandu: India has agreed to resume military cooperation with Nepal, which was suspended following the 2005 takeover of power by former King Gyanendra, besides providing training to Nepalese security personnel as part of efforts to step up defence cooperation.

    Nepal and India also agreed to share intelligence and to cooperate on constructing an airbase for the Nepalese army in the western part of the country, at the three-day joint-secretary level meeting that concluded here yesterday.

    During the meeting, India agreed in principle, to resume non-lethal military supplies to Nepal as per her request, a defence ministry official said. India had suspended military cooperation after former King Gyanendra assumed absolute power and dissolved the multi-party government in February 2005.

    During the Nepal-India Bilateral Consultative Group meeting held at the defence ministry here, the Indian delegation was led by Joint Secretary at the ministry of external affairs, Satish Mehata, while Nepal's delegation was led by his Nepalese counterpart Arun Prasad Dhital.

    India also agreed to provide training to Nepalese security personnel to upgrade their capabilities and to share intelligence for improving security, the official said.

    The delegations discussed the matters of mutual interest and agreed on cooperation to construct a Nepal Army airbase in Surkhet in western Nepal, a foreign ministry statement said.

    The Indian delegation also paid a courtesy call on deputy prime minister and foreign minister Sujata Koirala, defence minister Vidya Bhandari and Nepal army chief Chhatra Man Gurung.
    http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_india-to-resume-military-cooperation-with-nepal_1320993
     
  12. atleast_a_bronze

    atleast_a_bronze Regular Member

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    Great news if it is true.
    The news may be a propaganda of the maoists to play the anti-India card as usual. The news hasn't been confirmed by Indian Government yet. Will wait for Indian govt's reaction.

    Airstrips inside Bhutan is news too!!!
     
  13. hitmanjake

    hitmanjake New Member

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    here in australia, teenagers are called kids, period.
     
  14. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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  15. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    I wonder what the US reaction will be to this?? This is an admission by China they cannot fight India from their own territory and the String of pearls is a failure.This could also be a premise for a future Indian base in Afghanistan??
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  16. NSG_Blackcats

    NSG_Blackcats Member of The Month OCTOBER 2009 Senior Member

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    China spurs navy fortification in Andaman​


    China’s growing influence in the Indian Ocean region appears to have injected new momentum in India’s efforts to fortify its farthest military outpost, the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Plans are afoot to upgrade airstrips to support fighter operations, induct 5,000 more troops and deploy additional warships, senior officials said.

    Myanmar’s Coco Islands, where the Chinese navy has reportedly set up a surveillance post, are barely 40 km from the Andamans’ northernmost tip Landfall. New Delhi may not openly flag concerns about China’s strategic moves to squeeze India with its presence in Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Pakistan, but there is a growing realisation the Andamans hold the key to dominating a vital maritime zone.

    Vice-Admiral D.K. Joshi, Commander-in-Chief, Andaman and Nicobar Command (ANC), said airstrips at Campbell Bay and Shibpur were being extended from 3,200 feet to 12,000 feet to support all types of aircraft, including fighters. The airstrips are being upgraded for night-flying operations too.ANC sources said the army was planning to beef up its brigade-level deployment (around 3,000 soldiers) with three more battalions and support units. An officer said, “There are plans to induct a mechanised infantry battalion, an artillery regiment and an infantry unit.”

    The navy, too, is deploying more warships and patrol vessels in the region. Asked if the navy was concerned about the Chinese navy’s expansion in the IOR, navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said, “The navy’s plans are guided by what’s happening in the region not just by what a particular country is doing.”

    The Andamans are more than 1,200 km away from mainland India. A significant volume of China’s oil imports passes through Malacca Strait, about 350 km from these islands.

    Source
     
  17. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    China breaks the Himalayan barrier

    China breaks the Himalayan barrier


    By M K Bhadrakumar

    Two veteran diplomats, one from China and the other an American, trudge their weary way from their respective capitals to the remote Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan to witness as "observers" a gathering of eight leaders from South Asia agonizing over the stasis of their 25-year old regional forum.

    And then they retire to Beijing to exchange notes.

    One year ago, such a scenario would have been considered implausible - even illogical. Yet, when Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Wang Guangya receives the United States Assistant Secretary of State Robert O Blake Jr at Beijing on Monday for the first meeting of the newly-formed "US-China Sub-Dialogue on South Asia", what seemed far-fetched moves into the realm of geopolitical reality.

    The summit meetings of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) are better known as occasions for India-Pakistan diplomatic pageantry. The 16th SAARC summit at the Bhutanese capital of Thimpu on April 28-29 was no exception. The regional media, at least, thought so.

    Yet another India-Pakistan prime ministerial meeting did take place on the sidelines of the regional forum in a new attempt to breed a fresh format of dialogue as the two South Asian adversaries try to tackle their intractable differences.

    The new India-Pakistan process may or may not prove enduring. However, the Thimpu summit will be seen in retrospect as a watershed event where something fundamentally changed in the alchemy of regional cooperation in South Asia. (SAARC comprises Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Pakistan, Nepal, the Maldives and Sri Lanka.)

    Plainly put, cooperation - or the lack of it in comparison with most other regions on the planet - is henceforth going to be an international spectacle with the "great powers" present to take the pulse of the gyrating actors.

    Equally, what emerges is that a region that withstood Cold War infections for decades may not be so lucky this time as it gears up for what Ian Brummer, president of the Eurasia Group, recently called "the fight of the century" between China and the US.

    To be sure, the backdrop is unprecedented and rather intimidating. The US has become a long-term military presence in the region for the first time in history. And China, also for the first time in its history, is casting aside its millennia-old reclusiveness in Middle Asia and seems set to pole-vault over the Himalayas and become an active participant on the South Asian arena.

    From ''observer' to participant
    It is interesting that the US-China sparring in South Asia is beginning with a gingerly round of mutual consultation to figure out each other's hardcore perspectives and unspoken intentions. Which side took the initiative to hold the two-day consultation that begins on Monday remains unclear, but since the venue is Beijing, it appears China did.

    The SAARC has seven other "observers" - Iran, the European Union, Japan, South Korea, Mauritius, Australia and Myanmar - but the sub-regional meet at Beijing will keep them out. Evidently, China and the US do not have a high estimation of them (including the Europeans and the Japanese) as capable of carrying the burden of global responsibility to oversee the South Asian region's acute problems of security and stability.

    All the same, the US and Chinese statements on the occasion of the SAARC summit present a study in contrast. Blake was perfunctory to the point of being protocol-minded. For the record, he congratulated the SAARC on its 25th anniversary this year and "welcomed" its "vision for greater South Asian regional cooperation". In all probability, he spent his time fruitfully elsewhere in bilateral meetings.

    The US State Department spokesman in Washington awkwardly suggested that the SAARC summit was nothing terribly earthshaking: "One of a number of important structures that you have across the broader Asia region. We think they're important. We encourage them ... the secretary [Hillary Clinton] is committed to strengthen the United States' ties to other structures like ASEAN [Association of Southeast Asian Nations]. This is an indication of our ongoing and deepening commitment to the region."

    When his turn came, on the other hand, Vice Foreign Minister Wang manifestly warmed up. He stressed Beijing's desire to "elevate friendly ties" with the SAARC to "a new level". He viewed SAARC in ideological terms, as a forum where "China stands together with developing countries".

    Wang responded to the SAARC summit's focus on climate change by calling on developed countries to provide financial, technical and capacity-building assistance to enhance the ability of developing countries to cope with climate change.

    "China is ready to strengthen practical cooperation with South Asian countries on climate change through bilateral channels and within the framework of South-South cooperation," he said.

    Wang further assured that "on the basis and in a spirit of equality and mutual benefit, China is ready to conduct dialogue and exchanges and expand practical cooperation with SAARC". He announced a contribution of US$300,000 by China to the SAARC Development Fund and invited the body's senior officials [heads of foreign ministries] to a meeting in Beijing.

    Evidently, China takes its "observer" status - which it secured in 2005 - seriously. There have been reports that China aspires to seek full membership of SAARC, but India thinks that the regional body had better remain as it is with eight member countries belonging to the geographically definable region, and the bloc's charter stipulates that all decisions need to be unanimous.

    The challenge for Delhi ...
    India faces an existential dilemma somewhat similar to what Russia is gradually coming across in Central Asia (and the US may face in the Middle East, Africa and Latin America or in Southeast Asia): the appearance of a red star over the slice of firmament they somehow regarded as their own sphere of influence where they claimed to have uncontestable special interests in determining the shape of the constellation.

    No analogy is quite complete. Unlike Russia in Central Asia, India never ruled the South Asian region but then the enveloping cultural ambience and the shared history and geographical space and bindings of a common civilizational that flow through millennia are perhaps far more profound.

    Both Russia and India have a troubled history of relations with China in modern times and have fought bloody border conflicts, but Russia has been far more successful in coming to terms with the past.

    One main difference is that the Central Asian region comprises autocratic regimes for whom Russia stands between them and the deluge, whereas the South Asian countries are all democracies of one kind or the another that do not necessarily depend on India for their political survival.

    Besides, South Asian countries have an altogether different perception of China than that harbored by India - China as a benefactor.

    Even India's close neighbors like Nepal and Sri Lanka are eager to cultivate deeper Chinese involvement in their countries. And in the more recent past, China has been responding with noticeable alacrity, which of course causes uneasiness in the Indian mind although there is no evidence that China obstructs the expansion of India's cooperation with its regional partners.

    The hard reality is that the potentials of India's economic cooperation with its neighbors - except Nepal and Bhutan which are recipients of Indian aid - remain far from explored and the emerging possibility is that China may come from behind and overtake India.

    ... to get its act together
    Unlike India, China places primacy on its immediate neighborhood in its foreign policy and as Wang displayed, Beijing has a definite action plan with regard to carrying forward the impetus of cooperation with its South Asian neighbors.

    The clock has begun ticking for India to watch out for a point when China overtakes India in terms of substantive volume of cooperation with the SAARC partners. China did a similar act on Japan (and the US) in Southeast Asia.

    For India itself, China currently figures as the number one trade partner. The bilateral trade target for 2010 is US$60 billion, and Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Zhijun said last week, "I believe if we make the right efforts, we can even exceed the target."

    China is developing all-round cooperation with India's SAARC partners in a structured way in the economic, political and even military spheres. Curiously, China has been quite effective in the use of ''soft power'' too.

    Chinese diplomacy is placing its accent on people-to-people contacts, including with India. The attempt is to repeat the phenomenal success China scored in the Asia-Pacific and Southeast Asian region by placing ''soft power'' as a cutting edge of its diplomacy.

    India has annual tourist traffic of 1 million people with China, whereas the figure for South Korea stands at 5 million. The tiny island group of the Maldives hugs India's coast, yet receives more Chinese tourists than Indians.

    There is no evidence that Indian diplomacy is geared for what lies ahead as China makes its presence felt as the SAARC region's key partner.

    Already there is immense frustration among the SAARC countries like Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Maldives that the stasis of the regional body is rooted in the adversarial character of India-Pakistan ties. In an extraordinary outburst at Thimpu, Maldives President Mohamed Nasheed bluntly demanded that India and Pakistan should "compartmentalize" their mutual animosities and allow regional cooperation to gain traction.

    China's profile as the South Asia's leading interlocutor highlights India's inability to lead its own sub-region and erodes its credibility as a regional power. This is the stark message that the Indian foreign policy establishment needs to cull from the Thimpu summit once the dust settles after the alluring India-Pakistan diplomatic road show there.

    In hard terms, there is no escaping the fact that Delhi needs to evaluate the damage caused by the "militarization" of the Indian foreign policy mindset in the past few years. India may end up holding the wrong end of the stick through its obsession with the "string of pearls" thesis - that Beijing is encircling India. What is actually taking place is far more perilous - Chinese diplomacy may make India look ineffectual as a regional power.

    The fact that Blake headed for Beijing fresh from the Thimpu summit of SAARC testifies to a geopolitical reality.
     
  18. nandu

    nandu Senior Member Senior Member

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  19. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    by Ajai ShuklaBusiness Standard, 13th July 10
    The last couple of weeks have seen interesting developments in the Sino-Indian relationship. On June 28, a Chinese Web newspaper called Global Times posted an article that argued forcefully that Indian control of the northern Indian Ocean would be a positive development for China’s security. The timing of this article was noteworthy, coming as it did just four days before National Security Adviser Shiv Shankar Menon left for China to begin a new dialogue on exploring new ways to impart a positive direction to the Sino-Indian relationship.
    The author, Zhang Wenmu, a Beijing University professor, argued that only Russia, India and the US had direct interests in the northern Indian Ocean, while China had only an indirect interest. Indian control of these waters would suit China better than a strong US Navy presence in these waters.
    Besides, argued Prof Zhang, the more India focuses on the Indian Ocean, the safer Tibet becomes for China.
    If India were bent on containing China, it would focus on Tibet, not the Indian Ocean. Prof Zhang believes that India’s ongoing naval build-up would bring India into confrontation with the US, rather than with China, mirroring the way that China’s naval expansion is currently precipitating a confrontation between the Chinese and US navies.Admittedly, this radical idea has been expressed only unofficially, and in just a single media article so far. But it is standard Chinese practice to test reactions to potentially controversial ideas — such as an entente with India in the Indian Ocean — through a trial balloon of this kind.
    Furthermore, Mr Menon’s visit to China, from July 3 to July 6, took place in the backdrop of the naval confrontation that is building up between China and the US. Beijing has made it clear that it would not allow a joint US-South Korea naval exercise, scheduled for mid-July, in the Yellow Sea to be conducted unhindered in waters that it regards as China’s zone of influence.
    In March 2010, according to The New York Times, Beijing had told two visiting US administration officials that China would not tolerate US interference in its territorial disputes in the western Pacific, labelling the South China Sea for the first time as a “core interest” for China, on a par with Tibet and Taiwan.
    Now, Washington has challenged Beijing; an American nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, the USS George Washington, the flagship of the US 7th Fleet, is leading a powerful naval flotilla into the waters off China.
    China’s predicament explains Prof Zhang’s argument as well as the warmth with which Mr Menon was received in China. Premier Wen Jiabao received him for a 40-minute meeting, as did Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi and Vice Foreign Minister Dai Bingguo, Mr Mr Menon’s interlocutor on the border issue. Wen Jiabao was quoted as pointing out to Mr Menon that “It will be Asia’s century if India and China have a strong relationship”, and officials told the media that “a way forward” for the relationship was explored.
    China’s new appreciation for India’s concerns — which has flowered since Prime Minister Manmohan Singh supported Premier Jiabao’s stand at the Copenhagen climate summit — must be leveraged by New Delhi into forward movement on the Sino-Indian territorial dispute. While fully resolving the dispute is a complex task, Beijing must be made to understand that better relations with China hinge on convincing Indian public opinion about China’s bona fides on the border.
    A viable suggestion to China would be to diminish the profile of the dispute, transforming it from a territorial dispute — involving vast tracts of land amounting to 130,000 square kilometres — to a border dispute over where the boundary lies. Astonishingly, given the animosity and bloodshed that the dispute has generated, this is not difficult. Since the 1950s, China had been suggesting an East-for-West swap, in which China recognises India’s sovereignty over NEFA/Arunachal Pradesh (which India occupies) in exchange for recognition of Chinese sovereignty over the areas it already occupies in Aksai Chin/Ladakh.
    The same proposal, with relatively minor changes, has also guided the settlement being discussed since 2003 between the special representatives of the two countries: currently Shiv Shankar Menon and Dai Bingguo. Beijing’s insistence, after 1984, that the Tawang tract in Arunachal Pradesh be ceded to China has been the only new stumbling block. The other disputed areas are small and relatively insignificant.
    Today, it is theoretically possible for the two countries to agree on a border where China keeps Aksai Chin and India keeps Arunachal; while the Tawang tract and a dozen or so disputed enclaves be settled through further dialogue. This would radically diminish the very nature of the dispute, allowing an overall improvement in relations.
    All that prevents such a settlement (other than an Indian parliamentary resolution, which would have to be dealt with anyway) is China’s belief that it could extract a more favourable settlement in the future. But China is pragmatic; when the US-India relationship was surging in 2005, Wen Jiabao made bold concessions, accepting an India-friendly draft of the “Political Principles” for a settlement, an important document that India holds up today to buttress its claim on Tawang.
    With China under pressure on the Pacific front, and exploring common ground with India, Beijing must be persuaded to neuter a dispute that has long been, in the Indian psyche, evidence of Chinese animosity towards this country.
    http://www.indian-military.org/news-archives/indian-navy-news/821-sino-indian-border-fresh-opportunity.html
     
  20. jazzguy

    jazzguy Regular Member

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    You think that Chinese are so stupid to give up 95,000 square kilometers of Arunachal Pradesh. You probably do not understand Chinese. Cooperating with you does not mean they will give up claiming illegally occupied land by your British Master. Teaching you a lesson in 1962 did not mean they want solve the border dispute by force.

    We don’t understand Indian mindset. If you took somebody’s property by mistake, you just return it to it’s original owner. You can not take somebody’s property forever by keeping argue with baseless points.
     

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