Comparative detail of cost factor of the 6 MMRCA contenders

[luckyy]

How are lifecycle costs factored into the overall costs???

was it to belive or not , i don't know , but there is a article states that IAF is not fectoring lifecycle cost .....

"the MMRCA purchase model will be based on unit flyaway cost of aircraft and financing options -- i.e, not overall cost of ownership.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/big-fat-mmrca-update.html

 

[arps]

I am surprised that 42 MKI(probably with weapons) built in HAL, costing 20,000 crores..more than 4B$!!!(when MKI has the full infrastructure and skill set ready) ..Then how much India ready to pay for 126 MMRCA with infrastructure and some level of TOT ..I feel the MKI costing too much

 

[luckyy]

I am surprised that 42 MKI(probably with weapons) built in HAL, costing 20,000 crores..more than 4B$!!!(when MKI has the full infrastructure and skill set ready) ..Then how much India ready to pay for 126 MMRCA with infrastructure and some level of TOT ..I feel the MKI costing too much

su-30 won't cost much ..but it's MKI "super" ,..HAL has to buy lot of additional subsystems from different vendor across the globe..
the amount also includes the upgrade of some 40 odd MKIs to carry bhramos....
IAF will be raising two squaderens with these 42 new MKIs , inferastucture has to build for each squadaren...
20000cr is for entire deal .. sukhoi , HAL and IAF are the three parties in the deal , ...

now coming to mmrca , here also , 42000cr includes everything , weapons , inferastucture , training ....
i will try to find & post a old interview of a very senior IAF officer ...according to him each squadaren need about $ 1.5bn as a thump rule , that's how they reached to a figure of 10.5bn to raise 7 squadarens of mmrca with 18 aircrafts each...

 

[arps]

the amount also includes the upgrade of some 40 odd MKIs to carry bhramos....
su-30 won't cost much ..but it's MKI ,..HAL has to buy lot of additional subsystems from different vendor ..
20000cr is for entire deal...

IAF will sign another deal for upgrade. These new 42(definitely the most advanced MKI) costs more than 4B$(that also will be build in HAL).Means per fighter 100M$!!!..HAL now also buying a big chunk from different source.That's not the excuse for this super expensive deal.

 

[luckyy]

IAF will sign another deal for upgrade. These new 42(definitely the most advanced MKI) costs more than 4B$(that also will be build in HAL).Means per fighter 100M$!!!..HAL now also buying a big chunk from different source.That's not the excuse for this super expensive deal.

if you looking for cheaper deal , then it will be SU-30........not SU-30MKI.....the subsystems which HAL buying from isearl , itily etc to fit on to MKI are not cheap .....

the deal is inclusive of upgrade to SU-30MKI" super" that can carry bhramos......nothing more i can say...if you has source to show a seperate deal for upgrade..post it...

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20100626_fighters_oneView.html

UAE has paid 3bn to LM to upgrade/modify F-16 to match their need for extra range...

 

[arps]

if you looking for cheaper deal , then it will be SU-30........not SU-30MKI.....the subsystems which HAL buying from isearl , itily etc to fit on to MKI are not cheap .....

the deal is inclusive of upgrade to SU-30MKI" super" that can carry bhramos......nothing more i can say...if you has source to show a seperate deal for upgrade..post it...

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20100626_fighters_oneView.html

UAE has paid 3bn to LM to upgrade/modify F-16 to match their need for extra range...

Its quite out dated report. Check follow :

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...s/awx/2010/08/10/awx_08_10_2010_p0-246759.xml
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/national/india-may-buy-42-more-sukhois-518

I already said that these mki will be the most advanced version(so EASA or Brohmos enabled, smart skin etc should be included).But all these money is for 42 fighters only. That's why I told quite exorbitant. HAL is already integrating israil or france equipment.Wats new u r referring? Even HAL having most of the infrastructure and technical skill set, costing 100M$ per plane is exorbitant price.

 

[luckyy]

IAF has done few mistakes over the past years to let russians expoite the situations to raise prices..

1) during 2004 cope india exercise they should have not won that much of combat against US ...that give a upper position to russians that their fighter is far supirior and they can raise price ....
2) IAF should not advertise the MKI so much across the globe ...it help russians..
3) IAF should exploit the comments made by a US officer after red flag exercise to downgrade the MKI....

 

[devendra]

i donet belive the indian department no deadlines met,

 

[arps]

you are claming that IAF will sign a seperate deal for upgrade.............
if you has source to show a seperate deal for upgrade..post it...

the new 42 SU-30MKI are itself a upgrade version to fit IAF requirements to carry bhramos , so IAF has to pay for it........

this 20000cr will not go wholely going into the pocket of russians ...IAF and HAL are also parties in the deal..

you are mistaken to think that russians will carry 20000cr with them......it will be HAL whio going to build the 40 out of 42 new aircrafts , ..

it's a comprehansive deal..
russians party will get money for development cost to make su-30 to carry bhramos , complete cost of building 2 new aircrafts to give IAF in flying condition , cost of the kits of 40 aircrafts to be handed over to HAL ........and this money will be paid to sukhoi by HAL not by GOI , and GOI will pay money to HAL..
HAL party will get money for inhouse building the 40 new aircrafts , cost of the subsystems for 42 aircrafts which HAL will buying from other vendors ,
IAF will get money form GOI for weapons , traning and setting up the infrastucture to raise two new squadarens of bhramos carrying cabability.......no doubt it will cost more.

i have no idea if the money also includes of IAF paying to buy bhramos missiles...

media is only brifed by the govt on total extimate ..there are always several subdeals in every deal...

I m saying there will be a separate deal for up gradation of old MKIs(in the article it only mentioned for the new 42MKIs). I also said this 20,000 cr for 42 fighter with advance features(including easa and/or bromhos capable etc)..Did I said otherwise?...do u think all the advance features everybody integrating without adding R&D and other costs? Its a normal procedure..And how much infrastructure and traning? HAL already has the maximum infrastructure for MKIs and IAF pilots will be flying them for 2 decades by then.And I never said who will get what..I said ultimately we r paying 100M$ per fighter!!....That's exorbitant, when we consider making a big portion of stuffs in HAL is one of the cheapest.Think about how much it will cost PAK-FA with new infrastructure and training and simulators

 

[Armand2REP]

20,000 crore? that is like $100 million apiece. No way MKI is worth that much.

 

[neo29]

20,000 crore? that is like $100 million apiece. No way MKI is worth that much.

Even i was wondering that. su-30 mki does not cost more than $40 million. What are these guys upto signing such a costly order and for what reason ??? Are the numbers in the reports right ???

And here we are becoming cost conscious with mmrca.

 

[luckyy]

Even i was wondering that. su-30 mki does not cost more than $40 million. What are these guys upto signing such a costly order and for what reason ??? Are the numbers in the reports right ???

And here we are becoming cost conscious with mmrca.

cost has it's impact on everydeal , so the negotiations keep running for years...

 

[luckyy]

I m saying there will be a separate deal for up gradation of old MKIs(in the article it only mentioned for the new 42MKIs). I also said this 20,000 cr for 42 fighter with advance features(including easa and/or bromhos capable etc)..Did I said otherwise?...do u think all the advance features everybody integrating without adding R&D and other costs? Its a normal procedure..And how much infrastructure and traning? HAL already has the maximum infrastructure for MKIs and IAF pilots will be flying them for 2 decades by then.And I never said who will get what..I said ultimately we r paying 100M$ per fighter!!....That's exorbitant, when we consider making a big portion of stuffs in HAL is one of the cheapest.Think about how much it will cost PAK-FA with new infrastructure and training and simulators

IAF has done few mistakes over the past years to let russians expoite the situations to raise prices..

1) during 2004 cope india exercise they should have not won that much of combat against US ...that give a upper position to russians that their fighter is far supirior and they can raise price ......after all that was just an excersise not a war...
2) IAF should not advertise the MKI so much across the globe ...it help russians..
3) IAF should exploit the comments made by a US officer after red flag exercise to downgrade the MKI....

there is a old sindhi quote saying "don't admire which you going to buy."

 

[neo29]

IAF has done few mistakes over the past years to let russians expoite the situations to raise prices..

1) during 2004 cope india exercise they should have not won that much of combat against US ...that give a upper position to russians that their fighter is far supirior and they can raise price ......after all that was just an excersise not a war...
2) IAF should not advertise the MKI so much across the globe ...it help russians..
3) IAF should exploit the comments made by a US officer after red flag exercise to downgrade the MKI....

there is a old sindhi quote saying "don't admire which you going to buy."

But thats no reason for it to increase prices. Besides we have license to produce MKI. Assuming that the new MKI has new avionics but that is no reason for keeping price more than double. Negotiation of prices does not exists for India since it has already purchased and still purchasing MKI. No reason whatsoever to increase price so exorbitantly. Lets hope the media throws some light on this to expose the true nature of the deal.

 

[Armand2REP]

But thats no reason for it to increase prices. Besides we have license to produce MKI. Assuming that the new MKI has new avionics but that is no reason for keeping price more than double. Negotiation of prices does not exists for India since it has already purchased and still purchasing MKI. No reason whatsoever to increase price so exorbitantly. Lets hope the media throws some light on this to expose the true nature of the deal.

It is the same thing that happened with Gorshkov. Russians string you along with promises of low cost solutions but once you are committed, they have you by the balls. Even France tries to do it, but India will not accept French overpricing so we have to come down. GoI does not even protest when Russia does it.

 

[neo29]

^^^ True ... Even the scorpene deal was messes up coz of the establishment here. Most Indian analyst agree to it Indian official did not make the agreement straight leaving lot of loopholes. Same for Gorshky. The video mention a very fact that India being a major arm importer is not able to leverage its position in terms of price. Its like when deals with Russia occur, its a mixture of corruption is always there. Is the establishment that stupid to waste tax payers money???

I hope this news gives some insight of the Russian mind set in dealing with India. All those MIG 35 lovers, do you still want to risk 200 fighters deal with Russia and risk price rise along with delays and spares supply. It high time Russia learns a lesson that there are other sources of hardware. Lets limit Russia to JV only.

Lets hope Pak Fa doesnt cost a bomb. If establishment can pay such money, they sure can pay for costly powerful fighters like EF and Rafale. If they dont choose either of these, its clear they are using double standards in dealings.

 

[luckyy]

But thats no reason for it to increase prices. Besides we have license to produce MKI. Assuming that the new MKI has new avionics but that is no reason for keeping price more than double. Negotiation of prices does not exists for India since it has already purchased and still purchasing MKI. No reason whatsoever to increase price so exorbitantly. Lets hope the media throws some light on this to expose the true nature of the deal.

the report coming from a media channal . we all know the credibility of these chanals..........

nobody knows what is inclusive in the deal................IAF/MoD would have taken a well calculated decission on current MKI deal.......otherwise mirage upgrade deal won't be hanging for 5 years...

even for one moment we belive the report is true , ...in MKI many subsystems are from france , HAL , isreal , italy......if over all price of MKI has increased then it will be certain the price of the subsystems has also increased. ...

 

[luckyy]

International industry unites, calls on India to reform offset policies

International industry unites, calls on India to reform offset policies

Defence industry associations across North America and Europe will send a jointly signed letter to the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) early next month outlining proposals to overcome what they view as excessive bureaucracy that is stifling defence trade.

The letter will focus on defence companies' frustrations with existing offset policies and make a number of recommendations that industry bodies hope the MoD will include in a revision of the offset policy planned for next year.

Cosignatories of the letter include the Aerospace Industries Association in the United States; the Washington, DC-based US-India Business Council; the UK's ADS (AeroSpace Defense Security); the German Aerospace Industries Association (BDLI); France's Groupement des Industries Françaises Aéronautiques et Spatiales; and the Aerospace Industries Association of Canada.

Confirming the development to Jane's on 19 August, Brinley Salzmann, the director of overseas and exports at ADS, said the letter is a result of international defence industries' desire for a "workable offset policy in India that makes commercial sense for the overseas obligors and also generates value and benefits for Indian industry."

Salzmann said a particular focus of the letter is a request to the MoD that it establish a dedicated body that has authority to make key decisions on how vendors fulfil offset obligations.

Salzmann added that such an agency would address the high level of bureaucracy that has been identified by international defence industries as one of the biggest challenges in doing business in India.

He did not reveal full details of the letter's content, but said: "It will be along the lines of the need for a simplification of the system to try to generate an entity that has the authority to make decisions."

 

[Yusuf]

Phat gayi. After all the brouhaha about everyone wanting to get involved in India in a big way and make it a hub and blah blah, its back to the thought that any such things will cost their country jobs. India should not bend an inch, heck a millimeter.

 

[Armand2REP]

If they aren't going to make money, they won't do it. You have to give a little to get alot. France might have lost out on several deals, but at least we didn't lose money. Russia practically gives their stuff away. Russian producers are screaming to raise prices because there is no profit in what they are doing. It is part of the problem of their bankrupt defence industry.