Chinese Ships Ram Vietnamese Vessels

Ray

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The extraordinary ministers were ordinary person like most Indian members here before being made ministers. they were made ministers because they could formulate national policies base on the opinions of the ordinary people. those are the essence of democracy, arent they?

if people are free to express ideas, but government doesnt listen, then what is the point?

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Ministers formulate policies not on what is loosely stated by free citizens. If that were the case then India would have gone to war with China every time there is an incursion.

Therefore, while the Govt and Ministers listen to the people and their views, they take a deliberate policy decision based on geopolitics and geostratedy, they being privy to greater detail having access to various agencies that give the relevant inputs which is not available to the ordinary citizens.

Democracy does not mean licence and free for all.

It means that unlike totalitarian regimes, where the public is not involved in electing their representatives, in a democracy the representatives are elected by the people, and if the people feel that their representative has not done them well, then in a democracy in the next election, these representatives are hoofed out and new ones elected.
 

Compersion

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The extraordinary ministers were ordinary person like most Indian members here before being made ministers. they were made ministers because they could formulate national policies base on the opinions of the ordinary people. those are the essence of democracy, arent they?

if people are free to express ideas, but government doesnt listen, then what is the point?

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"Now we have a picture that's slowly pixelating, from Indonesia, to Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines and Japan, up the neighborhood," Schell said in a telephone interview. "We begin to get a picture of stress and strain. This is not exactly the peaceful rise of China that we were advertised."
China flexes its muscles in dispute with Vietnam - The Times of India

The PRC leadership will not listen to mere locals in PRC. They will listen to people from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Overseas Chinese and also PRC citizens overseas and major Powers including USA, Russia, NATO.

The Policy of PRC is formulated by what others think. The image from outside is more important to what is inside. The case-in-point this whole affair motive was to maintain stability and patriotism inside the country at the cost of the image outside. the PRC locals are being pressurized into adopting radically different beliefs but the others are not.

one can ask the Hong Kong, Taiwan, Overseas Chinese and also PRC citizens overseas and compare the views with the local PRC citizens. why is there such a different viewpoint. are local PRC citizens being represented appropriately by PRC leaders like the statement if "government doesnt listen, then what is the point". why is there a different view from local PRC citizen compared to all others. is it the PRC people are victims, harassed and discriminated because they are PRC people and represent the Chinese. Is this against Chinese. Is this against PRC leadership decision making.

What do you call a political system where the PRC leadership listens more to others more compared to the locals. Even powerful businessmen can get what they what compared to the PRC locals.

In India there would be dissent if India made any wrong moves. In parliament there would be a debate. It would be all over the local media and discussed. there would be a separation of powers to ensure stability. The question is everyone in agreement in PRC that what they are doing with its neighbors is right.

The maturity of the PRC leadership will be shown when they calm things down with the Vietnamese later. That is expected. It will be done. The image and stability of PRC would be strained and they have too much to loose. You don't want the PRC leaders being ridiculed overseas all the time and by Chinese outside PRC. But the Indonesia, to Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines and Japan and now Vietnam will not forget what happen. Will they forgive.

Whats the point with all the development if one cannot have respect and maturity. One only worries what people from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Overseas Chinese and also PRC citizens overseas think about such items.

A 1 billion dollar oil rig was basically floated into the area by PRC with the objective of keeping it there with force. What happens if the Vietnamese by mistake if not some other sinister state sinks the oil rig since it is not a permanent structure. Are PRC leaders capable of showing restraint and maturity like they advocate on others.

We saw in the incursion in India how immature PRC forces can act and the need for PRC leadership to maintain discipline and control by way of rules and guidelines.
 
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abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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true @Ray sir there are two concept of freedom one is negative and other is positive
.
in negative one freedom is not restricted by laws and in positive one it is restricted by law
.
negative one is person centred and positive one is society centred
.
eg. if there is polio , in negative freedom govt can't force a person to take it but in positive one govt can force him for welfare of society
so by not listening to crowd is actually for welfare of society and most of nation follows positive freedom
.
and todays political expert along with of 20th century expert also emphasize positive freedom
.
that's why many who don't know political science still can't understan politics of mahatma ghandis, he never followed crowd but worked for their welfare
.
@nimo_cn we have a parliamentary democracy and not a democracy like switzerland
 
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Compersion

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Taiwan expresses concern, reiterates claim over South China Sea | Politics | FOCUS TAIWAN - CNA ENGLISH NEWS

Taiwan expresses concern, reiterates claim over South China Sea

Taiwan Friday reiterated its claim over the disputed Paracel (Xisha/Sisha) Islands in the South China Sea while expressing concern over escalating tensions between Vietnam and China over a large Chinese oil rig in the area.
Chinese media threatens Vietnam with a 'lesson it deserves' over oil rig row | South China Morning Post

China should give Vietnam a "lesson it deserves to get" if Hanoi ratchets up tension in the South China Sea, an aggressive editorial in state-run media said on Tuesday.
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/arti...s-vietnam-leave-south-china-sea-drilling-area

Beijing accuses Vietnamese vessels of ramming Chinese ships, and tells Washington to mind its own business as tensions rise in South China Sea
This would be the official line from PRC from now:

"This is a matter between China and Vietnam, and has nothing to do with any other third party."
The Hong Kong, Taiwan, Overseas Chinese and also PRC citizens overseas and compare the views with the local PRC citizens. What do they think when they read and analyse what PRC is doing. Will it be with such objectivity that PRC is wanting the Vietnamese to behave.

Are the PRC leadership miscalculating. Perhaps being too expedient. Perhaps internal and domestic issues need immediate attention and hence the need for such actions. Is it to only prick the Americans but at the cost of its image :confused:.

No facts only speculation since its hard to get the real facts from PRC locals. Unlike Hong Kong, Taiwan, Overseas Chinese and also PRC citizens overseas that will represent more clearly and appropriately what PRC leaders ought to be saying and thinking.
 
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WeNeedTheTruth

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Chinese love @Peace but not at the expense of Trung Quoc waters. Vietnamese boats are harassing the Chinese rig which's worth approx US$ 1b and so desperately rammed Chinese CG.

Nine dash lines were unchallenged by the Philippines or Vietnam when it was drawn in 1947! First come first served!
]
First come first serve? We would totally LOVE that point! Why? It means who claimed the sovereignty first have the legality, right?
We, Vietnamese, were owning and administrating Paracel Islands from 18th Century, we pitched the flag in 1816, we have a lot of documents about setting our sovereignty and administrating those islands, a lot of documents from the Westerners that recognize and affirm our right. Leave your email and we will send you our proofs. What do you have? Some chinese fishermen visited it? You named it? Well, nothing you have done is relating to claiming sovereignty. The chinese never cared about Paracels until the 20th Century when it finally had a little power, and in 1974 you bring your navy there to invade our sovereign islands.

--
Besides, someone please teach china that when you sign for something, you have to obey it. The location is 80 miles inside Vietnam's EEZ. China signed the UNCLOS. Oh sorry, I'm wrong, China didn't sign it, China is one of the pioneer investers! China help created this!
Overview - Convention & Related Agreements
According to UNCLOS 1982, China can't just drill oil inside Vietnam's EEZ! So, if you want to drill oil inside other's EEZ, why the heck did you create and sign that convention? I'm really confused. Every 5-year-old kid knows that you have to obey what you have signed for.
 
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WeNeedTheTruth

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Now we are in the front line against China. China will not break international laws only one time, it will break many more.
We really need support from other countries.
 

amoy

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Now we are in the front line against China. China will not break international laws only one time, it will break many more.
We really need support from other countries.
what is truth? there's no truth but only perception of truth. what is intl law? mind u Uncle Sam who's supposed to back VN and PHL is NOT even a party to UNCLOS. Chinese have been all over SCS from time immemorial. when the 1st republic ROC published the SCS claim which far preceded UNCLOS and hence overrides it, there was no objection from any.

many mock "peaceful rise" that Trung Quoc advertises. alright RISE is the end and PEACEFUL defines means. ends always justify means, not vise versa. Chinese gvnmt must grow a spine to show what's in the rise for fishermen whose livelihood is threatened by detention, extortion and shots by PHL/VN on SCS, and for energy-thirsty 1.4bln . otherwise CCP'd better bow and step down to give way to KMT or DPP, who may b more competent for the rise.

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WeNeedTheTruth

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what is truth? there's no truth but only perception of truth. what is intl law? mind u Uncle Sam who's supposed to back VN and PHL is NOT even a party to UNCLOS. Chinese have been all over SCS from time immemorial. when the 1st republic ROC published the SCS claim which far preceded UNCLOS and hence overrides it, there was no objection from any.

many mock "peaceful rise" that Trung Quoc advertises. alright RISE is the end and PEACEFUL defines means. ends always justify means, not vise versa. Chinese gvnmt must grow a spine to show what's in the rise for fishermen whose livelihood is threatened by detention, extortion and shots by PHL/VN on SCS, and for energy-thirsty 1.4bln . otherwise CCP'd better bow and step down to give way to KMT or DPP, who may b more competent for the rise.

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Just read the #66, man :rofl:
 

t_co

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Besides, someone please teach china that when you sign for something, you have to obey it. The location is 80 miles inside Vietnam's EEZ. China signed the UNCLOS. Oh sorry, I'm wrong, China didn't sign it, China is one of the pioneer investers! China help created this!
Overview - Convention & Related Agreements
According to UNCLOS 1982, China can't just drill oil inside Vietnam's EEZ! So, if you want to drill oil inside other's EEZ, why the heck did you create and sign that convention? I'm really confused. Every 5-year-old kid knows that you have to obey what you have signed for.
Er... that location is 80km inside Vietnam's EEZ only if you accept that Vietnam owns the Paracel islands. If you accept that China owns the Paracel Islands, then the location is 50-60km inside China's EEZ.
 

WeNeedTheTruth

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Er... that location is 80km inside Vietnam's EEZ only if you accept that Vietnam owns the Paracel islands. If you accept that China owns the Paracel Islands, then the location is 50-60km inside China's EEZ.
Do you know anything about UNCLOS 1982? Come on, someone please tell china to teach its citizen to read what they have signed! How innocent you are =))))
Firstly, Paracel has no EEZ. Exclusive Economic Zone extends from the BASELINE, which run along the low-water line (near the shore) of the country, not a disputed island.
Read this: UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA
Article 3-7.
It means that you do have your legal 200-mile EEZ, it ends somewhere in the north of the Paracels. You have yours, go drilling oil there, not in others' EEZ.

Secondly, you have no legal right on Paracels!
We, Vietnamese, were owning and administrating Paracel Islands from 18th Century, we pitched the flag in 1816, we have a lot of documents about setting our sovereignty and administrating those islands, a lot of documents from the Westerners that recognize and affirm our right. Leave your email and we will send you our proofs. What do you have? Some chinese fishermen visited it? You named it? Well, nothing you have done is relating to claiming sovereignty. The chinese never cared about Paracels until the 20th Century when it finally had a little power, and in 1974 you bring your navy there to invade our sovereign islands.
 
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nimo_cn

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CCP, you are a shameful idiot by judging your post.

You are doing China no good but spread more hatred toward China
why are you always acting so tough on your own people?

CCP spreading hatred against China? Oh really? China is being hated because we deserve it?

Anyone here spreading love about China?

Do you agree what these Indians are posting?

Do you really feel so urgent to challenge one of your own after reading what the Indians have posted?

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nimo_cn

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In 1951, the then Vietnamese premier wrote a letter to China, in which he officially recognized Chinese sovereignty over the SCS.

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nimo_cn

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Ministers formulate policies not on what is loosely stated by free citizens. If that were the case then India would have gone to war with China every time there is an incursion.

Therefore, while the Govt and Ministers listen to the people and their views, they take a deliberate policy decision based on geopolitics and geostratedy, they being privy to greater detail having access to various agencies that give the relevant inputs which is not available to the ordinary citizens.

Democracy does not mean licence and free for all.

It means that unlike totalitarian regimes, where the public is not involved in electing their representatives, in a democracy the representatives are elected by the people, and if the people feel that their representative has not done them well, then in a democracy in the next election, these representatives are hoofed out and new ones elected.
yes, i know that ordinary people wont be directly involved in the policy making process, not even in a democracy.

but it's true that in a real democracy what ordinary people want will always be reflected in the policies made by the representatives the people elect into power. that is the whole point of having election right, isn't it?

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WeNeedTheTruth

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In 1951, the then Vietnamese premier wrote a letter to China, in which he officially recognized Chinese sovereignty over the SCS.

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What kind of Vietnamese are you referring to? The Vietnamese who were owning Paracels or the Vietnamese who weren't? Since in '1951' there were 2 kinds of Vietnamese and they were different recognized countries, one had the right to negotiate about Paracels and one didn't. Let's make things clear so you will not be confussed.

yes, i know that ordinary people wont be directly involved in the policy making process, not even in a democracy.

but it's true that in a real democracy what ordinary people want will always be reflected in the policies made by the representatives the people elect into power. that is the whole point of having election right, isn't it?

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'Democracy' respect and obey the contract they signed for. Case closed.
 

t_co

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Do you know anything about UNCLOS 1982? Come on, someone please tell china to teach its citizen to read what they have signed! How innocent you are =))))
Firstly, Paracel has no EEZ. Exclusive Economic Zone extends from the BASELINE, which run along the low-water line (near the shore) of the country, not a disputed island.
Read this: UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA
Article 3-7.
It means that you do have your legal 200-mile EEZ, it ends somewhere in the north of the Paracels. You have yours, go drilling oil there, not in others' EEZ.
Actually, it includes the baseline generated by islands which are under the jurisdiction of a political entity.

Case in point - Japan claims significant chunks of its EEZ off islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean:



Secondly, you have no legal right on Paracels!
We, Vietnamese, were owning and administrating Paracel Islands from 18th Century, we pitched the flag in 1816, we have a lot of documents about setting our sovereignty and administrating those islands, a lot of documents from the Westerners that recognize and affirm our right. Leave your email and we will send you our proofs. What do you have? Some chinese fishermen visited it? You named it? Well, nothing you have done is relating to claiming sovereignty. The chinese never cared about Paracels until the 20th Century when it finally had a little power, and in 1974 you bring your navy there to invade our sovereign islands.
Thanks for the copy paste, but in the case of who owns the Paracels themselves, your Democratic Republic of Vietnam already gave up its claim to the Paracels:

We have the honour to bring to your knowledge that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam recognizes and supports the declaration dated September 4, 1958 of the Government of China fixing the width of the Chinese territorial waters. The Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision.
 

Compersion

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what is truth? there's no truth but only perception of truth. what is intl law? mind u Uncle Sam who's supposed to back VN and PHL is NOT even a party to UNCLOS. Chinese have been all over SCS from time immemorial. when the 1st republic ROC published the SCS claim which far preceded UNCLOS and hence overrides it, there was no objection from any.

many mock "peaceful rise" that Trung Quoc advertises. alright RISE is the end and PEACEFUL defines means. ends always justify means, not vise versa. Chinese gvnmt must grow a spine to show what's in the rise for fishermen whose livelihood is threatened by detention, extortion and shots by PHL/VN on SCS, and for energy-thirsty 1.4bln . otherwise CCP'd better bow and step down to give way to KMT or DPP, who may b more competent for the rise.

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Your post is the most interesting and it is honest. I like that, you are hitting the main points on the head. There is also a caveat that if PRC communist party not perform such duty there are choices for the people. That's fascinating,

Also what you are saying in reply and in defence of PRC action that international law and customary law and international relations between sovereign nations can be ignored and not applied if it is necessary for domestic compulsions. And if that is aggressive and provocative that's a fact.

You talk the truth good man.
 

Compersion

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The PRC cannot argue that it has acquired sovereignty over the Parcel Islands by conquest when it took possession in 1974 by forcing Vietnam from the islands by using military force.

Charter of the United Nations

If Vietnam claims sovereignty and it objects or protests to the displays of sovereignty done by PRC, this weakens the claim of PRC.
The Vietnamese are following international law and protesting and not allowing acquiescence of the area by PRC. The area was not terra nullius and also there is no prescription under international law.

Pedra Branca dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also article 121 (3) of unclos is that valid to be discussed. Are all the parcel area islands and naturally formed (not reclaimed). From where does Vietnamese and PRC exclusive economic zone finish and overlap with the parcel island and not "rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no EEZ or continental shelf."

Finally the UN Charter States are obliged to resolve their disputes by peaceful means... It would be good if PRC and Vietnam resolve this dispute peacefully.

The reaction by Vietnam is significant,

Iam sure PRC leaders will look to calm things down. They are too pragmatic.
 

nimo_cn

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What kind of Vietnamese are you referring to? The Vietnamese who were owning Paracels or the Vietnamese who weren't? Since in '1951' there were 2 kinds of Vietnamese and they were different recognized countries, one had the right to negotiate about Paracels and one didn't. Let's make things clear so you will not be confussed.



'Democracy' respect and obey the contract they signed for. Case closed.
i am sorry, i thought there was only one Vietnam.

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WeNeedTheTruth

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Actually, it includes the baseline generated by islands which are under the jurisdiction of a political entity.

Case in point - Japan claims significant chunks of its EEZ off islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean:

Because Japan consider themselves as an Archipelago Nation and they have some points too.
I don't say they are right or wrong, since I'm not into this case very much.

As I said, China is definitely not an Archipelago Nation, so your EEZ must extends from the BASELINE.

Thanks for the copy paste, but in the case of who owns the Paracels themselves, your Democratic Republic of Vietnam already gave up its claim to the Paracels:
So, you agree that your 'historical proof' is not gonna work, because ours are so powerful, legal, and reasonable.

As I said before to your countryman.
In 1954 there were 2 kinds of Vietnamese and they were different recognized countries, one had the right to negotiate about Paracels and one didn't. One was owning Paracels and the other wasn't? Let's make things clear so you will not be confused.

The Vietnam you are talking about have no right to negotiate about Paracels, they are just the third party in this conflict. The South Vietnam (RVN) was the only one have the right to deal with Paracel Islands, according to Geneva Treaty 1954 (Paracels is in the south of the 17th latitude, it means that the South had the right to administrate it, not the North). In 1975, the RVN was overthrown by the Provisional Revolutionary Government of the Republic of South Vietnam (PRGRSVN - the Viet Cong), it means that PRGRSVN now have the sovereignty over Paracels from the old RVN. In 1976 North Vietnam and South Vietnam (PRGRSVN) united, so Social Republic of Vietnam (Vietnam today) was born, and the new Vietnam has the right on Paracels from the PRGRSVN..
 

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