Chinese Language and its different dialects

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
What's with the aggression? Mandarin spoken in taiwan is understood on the mainland. And vice-versa. It's NOT unintelligible as you claim. Why do you insist on lecturing us on our own language? One is standardized Mandarin and the other traditional. I would think its common sense that the two would be understandable to eachother.



PS. Calling us communist robots and assembly line minded, because we're of a certain nationality implies that you think you're better than us, because you're Indian and we're Chinese. In anyone's book, that's racist. Watch your language.
I am not teaching the Chinese about their language.

I am merely pointing out the falsehood that is being pandered as if the Chinese were similar like assembly line products and I am quoting from works and links and not giving my personal opinion and views. Nor am I going into the usual tommy rot, 'I have friends in FB' or "I have friends in X community or Y community' when trying to project what a super person one is and so unbiased!!

Just answer this - why was it necessary to have a Standardised Mandarin if all understood each other?

Your attempt to standardise your people, culture, language as one is but what is done in an assembly line where the whole manufacturing is standardised.

Assembly line is not racist. It is a fact. Can you air your views independently and escape? You have to shut up in your country or toe the line! If that is not assembly line, what is? Ask those who are in Chinese jails for speaking out, including internationally recognised figures like that Nobel Prize winner or that person who designed the Birds Nest for the Olympics.

In democracies, one can express our views.
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Only those who are weak on facts, sacred of the truth or are insecure, carry out irrelevant attacks like - racist and all that!

Another issue you must know is that Indians are very tolerant and we don't jump up and down every time there is a contrary view and start yelling racists, just to gag a person and prevent free speech..

If only you would have observed some of the thread on politics, race and religion on this forum would you realise how tolerant we are and we sincerely have free speech.

Of course, I understand that it is too complicated for you to understand or appreciate since this phenomenon is unknown to you unless approved by the CCP!
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
One more nail in the coffin that Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese is same!

China and Taiwan 'first joint dictionary'
A Taiwanese visitor to mainland China was shocked to see sliced "tu dou" on a menu. The word means peanut in Taiwan - but potato in mainland China.

A Taiwanese professor ordering coffee at a Beijing cafe was asked if he wanted a "coffee companion" - China's way of saying cream.

The stunned academic thought they wanted him to hire a hostess to keep him company. He told the waitress: "I didn't bring enough money."

Taiwan and China may share the same linguistic heritage - like Britain and the United States - but more than six decades of separation and political tensions have led to the Chinese language evolving in very different ways on each side; sometimes causing confusion, frustration or embarrassment.

Relations have been improving since 2008 and in the past year, the two former foes have been working on a first-ever joint dictionary that will encompass their different ways of writing and speaking Chinese.

The dictionary, named the Great Chinese Dictionary, will be free and put online.

A preliminary version containing more than 28,000 commonly used words and phrases will be unveiled by the end of this year, while a more comprehensive version will be available by 2015.

The project could help tens of million of non-native speakers studying Chinese worldwide. China's rise has made Mandarin Chinese a top choice for foreign language study.

But for Taiwan and China, the dictionary is aimed at bridging the language gap that has risen due to the two sides being ruled separately since the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949, and even as far back as 1895 when Japan colonised the island.
Language gap

One of the biggest differences is that China, starting in the 1950s, has required its people to use simplified Chinese characters to raise literacy. Taiwan continues to use traditional characters, which have more strokes, insisting they best represent the culture behind the language.

When it comes to speaking, while both sides use Mandarin Chinese as the official dialect, they say even simple words like rice, hot water, and panda differently - "mi fan," "bai kai shui," and "xiong mao" in China, versus "bai fan," "re shui" and "mao xiong" in Taiwan.

These differences might seem slight, but some are not. In China, you refer to your spouse as your "ai ren", but that means your lover in Taiwan.

Some words have been created on one side but not the other because of the influence of local dialects and each side's unique history.

For example - "dong xuan" means frozen garlic in China, but in Taiwan it's a slang derived from the widely spoken Minan dialect and means winning an election.

And the word for boxed lunch is "bian dang" in Taiwan, borrowed from the Japanese word "bento" during Japan's colonial rule, but in China it's "he fan" - literally box rice.

There are also variations in tones. And each side uses different characters to translate new scientific, medical and English terms, as well as names of important foreign places and people.

Such differences can sometimes cause confusion even at a high level.

On a groundbreaking visit to China in 2005, Taiwan's current ruling party Kuomintang's then-chairman Lien Chan used the phrase "yuan jing", meaning a positive goal for the future, to express his hopes for good bilateral ties.

Chinese journalists had no idea what he meant because they had never heard of the phrase.
Character debate

As interaction between China and Taiwan increases, people wonder which side will win out on the language front.

Will Taiwan move towards its giant neighbour's way of writing and speaking, or will the small island, which prides itself on being the repository of traditional Chinese culture, have more influence over China?

In terms of numbers, China has a clear upper hand. Besides its population of 1.3 billion, an estimated 40 million non-Chinese nationals are learning simplified characters, with more than 200,000 studying in China.

In contrast, only around 30 million people use traditional characters daily - mostly in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau - that's only about 2% of Chinese speakers. And only about 12,500 foreigners come to Taiwan to study traditional Chinese each year.

To counter this trend, Taiwan has stepped up scholarships and marketing. It plans to open its version of the British Council beginning this year. And its top school for teaching foreigners Chinese - the National Taiwan Normal University (NTNU) - recently launched a free internet-based Chinese learning programme to encourage more people to learn traditional Chinese.

There is also growing interest among Chinese people in traditional Chinese culture, including the language.

Increasingly, they wonder for example how the simplified word for love can be missing the character for heart, and the word for noodle the character for wheat. Both are included in the traditional versions.

Many Chinese also prefer to use traditional characters to print their names on business cards.

Not only do the characters look better - they are like pictures that provide clues to the philosophy and evolution of Chinese words. For example, "armed forces" is made up of the words "stop" and "fighting" - as militaries were seen as tools to stop wars.

There is even growing resistance against simplification among Chinese linguists tasked with simplifying more characters, said Constance Lin, a Mandarin teacher at NTNU.

"They spend a lot of money and time trying to simplify more characters each year, but the scholars want to stop the simplification; they are urging the government to slowly return to standard characters," said Lin.

"You won't see this reported by China's media, but that's what the scholars are telling us."

Mainland students are beginning to come to Taiwan to learn traditional Chinese. And other than Singapore and Malaysia, traditional Chinese is more commonly used in overseas Chinese communities.
'Confusion'

At the same time, however, simplified characters are increasingly appearing in Taiwan. Many Taiwanese use them when handwriting. Even the first character for the word Taiwan is often written in the easier-to-write way.

To cater to the more than 1.5 million Chinese tourists now visiting Taiwan each year, many Taiwanese hotels, shops and even government agencies put out brochures, signs and menus in simplified Chinese.

It remains to be seen whether the dictionary, which will be presented in both traditional and simplified Chinese, will have an impact on the two sides' language rift.

For now, all agreements signed between them - including a landmark free trade agreement - are printed in simplified Chinese for China, and traditional Chinese for Taiwan.

Taiwan's former premier Liu Chao-shiuan, who's heading the dictionary project, says the goal is not to convert one side to the other's way of writing or speaking, but to create a database of words and let the users decide "on both sides of the Taiwan Strait and for all the people who want to learn Chinese".

Ultimately, technology and need may be the decisive factors in the simplified versus traditional debate. Students in China and Taiwan are increasingly typing rather than handwriting. Even students at the best universities sometimes can't remember how to write certain characters.

At a Taipei primary school, a teacher recently gave a lesson on how Chinese words originated from drawings of what they represented.

But despite the students' excitement at guessing what the words were based on their pictures, at the end of the lesson, several students bemoaned the difficulties of writing Chinese.

"I don't really like to write Chinese characters; it's very tiring," said eight-year-old Lee Mi. In a few years, she will be handing in her homework typed.

But technology may also help spread the use of traditional Chinese characters, said Tsao Feng-fu, a distinguished linguistics professor.

"Complex characters will still retain their usage and advantage because in the future we'll need to write less, so simplified characters will not be as important," Tsao said.

A lot of material will be in digital form and traditional Chinese can be typed as easily as simplified Chinese. That means mainland Chinese people can read traditional characters and still handwrite using simplified characters, Tsao said.

That's what President Ma says he is hoping for - the joint dictionary was his idea.

Last year, he also advocated the two sides reach an agreement on the teaching of traditional and simplified characters in schools.

Although that sparked accusations from the opposition and Ma's own party that he was trying to spread simplified characters in Taiwan, he said he was actually hoping to influence Chinese people to learn traditional characters so that traditional Chinese will flourish again in China.

BBC News - China and Taiwan 'first joint dictionary'
How much of falsehood must we bear from the Chinese posters?

If indeed the Chinese language was the same and the Taiwanese spoke the same as the Mainlanders, then:

1. Where is the requirement to have a joint dictionary?

2. Why does "tu dou" means peanut in Taiwan - but potato in mainland China?

3. A Taiwanese professor ordering coffee at a Beijing cafe was asked if he wanted a "coffee companion" - China's way of saying cream.

The stunned academic thought they wanted him to hire a hostess to keep him company. He told the waitress: "I didn't bring enough money."?

That much for Taiwanese Chinese being the same as Mainland Chinese.


Shows the deceit that is being perpetuated on this thread and forum!

This nails the lie even more:

One of the biggest differences is that China, starting in the 1950s, has required its people to use simplified Chinese characters to raise literacy. Taiwan continues to use traditional characters, which have more strokes, insisting they best represent the culture behind the language.

When it comes to speaking, while both sides use Mandarin Chinese as the official dialect, they say even simple words like rice, hot water, and panda differently - "mi fan," "bai kai shui," and "xiong mao" in China, versus "bai fan," "re shui" and "mao xiong" in Taiwan.

These differences might seem slight, but some are not. In China, you refer to your spouse as your "ai ren", but that means your lover in Taiwan.

For example - "dong xuan" means frozen garlic in China, but in Taiwan it's a slang derived from the widely spoken Minan dialect and means winning an election.
And the word for boxed lunch is "bian dang" in Taiwan, borrowed from the Japanese word "bento" during Japan's colonial rule, but in China it's "he fan" - literally box rice.
There are also variations in tones. And each side uses different characters to translate new scientific, medical and English terms, as well as names of important foreign places and people.

Such differences can sometimes cause confusion even at a high level.

On a groundbreaking visit to China in 2005, Taiwan's current ruling party Kuomintang's then-chairman Lien Chan used the phrase "yuan jing", meaning a positive goal for the future, to express his hopes for good bilateral ties.

Chinese journalists had no idea what he meant because they had never heard of the phrase.
If the Taiwanese were so enamoured by the Mainland Chinese then why do this?

To counter this trend, Taiwan has stepped up scholarships and marketing. It plans to open its version of the British Council beginning this year. And its top school for teaching foreigners Chinese - the National Taiwan Normal University (NTNU) - recently launched a free internet-based Chinese learning programme to encourage more people to learn traditional Chinese.
And why this?

There is also growing interest among Chinese people in traditional Chinese culture, including the language.

Increasingly, they wonder for example how the simplified word for love can be missing the character for heart, and the word for noodle the character for wheat. Both are included in the traditional versions.

Many Chinese also prefer to use traditional characters to print their names on business cards.

Not only do the characters look better - they are like pictures that provide clues to the philosophy and evolution of Chinese words. For example, "armed forces" is made up of the words "stop" and "fighting" - as militaries were seen as tools to stop wars.
And how do our worthy Chinese explain this when they say that the Taiwanese love the Mainland or words to that effect?

There is even growing resistance against simplification among Chinese linguists tasked with simplifying more characters, said Constance Lin, a Mandarin teacher at NTNU.

"They spend a lot of money and time trying to simplify more characters each year, but the scholars want to stop the simplification; they are urging the government to slowly return to standard characters," said Lin.

"You won't see this reported by China's media, but that's what the scholars are telling us."

Mainland students are beginning to come to Taiwan to learn traditional Chinese. And other than Singapore and Malaysia, traditional Chinese is more commonly used in overseas Chinese communities.
So, there we are which shows how obfuscation is being done to confuse those who are not in the know!
 
Last edited:

J20!

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,748
Likes
1,541
Country flag
Only those who are weak on facts, sacred of the truth or are insecure, carry out irrelevant attacks like - racist and all that!

Another issue you must know is that Indians are very tolerant and we don't jump up and down every time there is a contrary view and start yelling racists, just to gag a person and prevent free speech..

If only you would have observed some of the thread on politics, race and religion on this forum would you realise how tolerant we are and we sincerely have free speech.

Of course, I understand that it is too complicated for you to understand or appreciate since this phenomenon is unknown to you unless approved by the CCP!
Ray, think before you post. If you're going to insult a member on a forum, dont insult our whole race. We do not come off an assembly line. We're not manufactured. We are individuals, with equally individual minds. Implying that you're somehow better than Chinese people because were assembly line morons is racist, and if you cant see that I cant help you. You haven't just insulted the members you were arguing with, you've insulted the entire Chinese population. THINK BEFORE YOU POST. And dont say I'm not tolerant because I wont put up with you insulting basically everyone I'm acquainted with, including my family. You seem to have a problem admitting you were wrong.
 

J20!

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,748
Likes
1,541
Country flag
I am not teaching the Chinese about their language.

I am merely pointing out the falsehood that is being pandered as if the Chinese were similar like assembly line products and I am quoting from works and links and not giving my personal opinion and views. Nor am I going into the usual tommy rot, 'I have friends in FB' or "I have friends in X community or Y community' when trying to project what a super person one is and so unbiased!!

Just answer this - why was it necessary to have a Standardised Mandarin if all understood each other?

Your attempt to standardise your people, culture, language as one is but what is done in an assembly line where the whole manufacturing is standardised.

Assembly line is not racist. It is a fact. Can you air your views independently and escape? You have to shut up in your country or toe the line! If that is not assembly line, what is? Ask those who are in Chinese jails for speaking out, including internationally recognised figures like that Nobel Prize winner or that person who designed the Birds Nest for the Olympics.

In democracies, one can express our views.
Yes you are! You're trying to tell us we are wrong when I know we're not.
Standardised mandarin was concieved with the cultural revolution, I cant rationalize it.
You want to discuss democracy now? Just admit you were wrong claiming that Mainland Chinese and Taiwan Chinese dont understand each other's forms of Mandarin. The two are different dialects, not different languages. next time just ask and we'll tell you what we know.
 

The Messiah

Bow Before Me!
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
10,809
Likes
4,619
lmao brigadier has out maneuvered chinis into a corner :lol:
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Ray, think before you post. If you're going to insult a member on a forum, dont insult our whole race. We do not come off an assembly line. We're not manufactured. We are individuals, with equally individual minds. Implying that you're somehow better than Chinese people because were assembly line morons is racist, and if you cant see that I cant help you. You haven't just insulted the members you were arguing with, you've insulted the entire Chinese population. THINK BEFORE YOU POST. And dont say I'm not tolerant because I wont put up with you insulting basically everyone I'm acquainted with, including my family. You seem to have a problem admitting you were wrong.
If after the copious proof proffered, you think I am wrong, then it just shows the mentality of negativism!

I have given facts and so you can't call that racist, unless you wish to scamper under a cloak of PC terminology that does not hold water in this context.

The whole race?

Indeed!

The whole race was agitated by one man - Mao - to destroy the nation and kill the people!

Can you explain the psychology and the rationale for this massacre if you feel that it is not assembly line indoctrinated mindless people?

You explain it and I will readily accept. I personally feel Mao has done much for China and he is the real one who has put China where it is.

However, the way he could manipulate people to into loyal, brainless, independent mind less people, does indicate some magic power which is similar to the miracle of the Ford T and the assembly line concept!

I don't argue. I present facts with links and not FB fantasies or claims that one knows Taiwanese because he knows Mandarin.

I would love to have the facts presented proved wrong. That will be education and not a slight on ego. It is insecure people who live a life on ego. The wise only wish to learn.
 
Last edited:

Godless-Kafir

DFI Buddha
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
5,842
Likes
1,837
Country flag
Yes you are! You're trying to tell us we are wrong when I know we're not.
Standardised mandarin was concieved with the cultural revolution, I cant rationalize it.
You want to discuss democracy now? Just admit you were wrong claiming that Mainland Chinese and Taiwan Chinese dont understand each other's forms of Mandarin. The two are different dialects, not different languages. next time just ask and we'll tell you what we know.
It might as well be two different languages when a lot of words have diffrent meaning.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Yes you are! You're trying to tell us we are wrong when I know we're not.
Standardised mandarin was concieved with the cultural revolution, I cant rationalize it.
You want to discuss democracy now? Just admit you were wrong claiming that Mainland Chinese and Taiwan Chinese dont understand each other's forms of Mandarin. The two are different dialects, not different languages. next time just ask and we'll tell you what we know.
If you are not wrong, prove it, instead of pouring out irrelevant whines of no consequences.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Hindi has dialects, but not different meanings of the same word!

Bengali has many words similar to Hindi and Urdu, but then they are different languages.

Of course, if we were in China, every language would be the same and be called Hindi!

In fact, our national anthem is in Bengali. Just the change of accent makes it Hindi.

So, Bengali is Hindi or is it a dialect of Hindi?
 

Godless-Kafir

DFI Buddha
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
5,842
Likes
1,837
Country flag
Hindi has dialects, but not different meanings of the same word!

Bengali has many words similar to Hindi and Urdu, but then they are different languages.

Of course, if we were in China, every language would be the same and be called Hindi!

In fact, our national anthem is in Bengali. Just the change of accent makes it Hindi.

So, Bengali is Hindi or is it a dialect of Hindi?
Very well put, they all evolve from sanskrit or pali!
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Yes you are! You're trying to tell us we are wrong when I know we're not.
Standardised mandarin was concieved with the cultural revolution, I cant rationalize it.
You want to discuss democracy now? Just admit you were wrong claiming that Mainland Chinese and Taiwan Chinese dont understand each other's forms of Mandarin. The two are different dialects, not different languages. next time just ask and we'll tell you what we know.
BTW I am not saying that Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese is different.

Everything is showing it.

Check even the BBC report posted above!

I am not been pigheaded.

It is those who are battling along with the irrelevant and falsehood who are not only pigheaded but mulishly stubborn and not ready to see the reality and truth!
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
My good Chinese,

Instead of giving your inflamed opinion, just prove that the BBC interpretation and the Wikipedia quote (including the educated research papers in reference) are wrong.

That will prove that you are right.

Your personal opinion is worth nothing.
 

J20!

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,748
Likes
1,541
Country flag
If you are not wrong, prove it, instead of pouring out irrelevant whines of no consequences.
Fine Ray, you're right. Taiwan Chinese and mainland Chinese dont understand eachother at all. In the 63 years we've been apart, the two forms of mandarin have differed SOOO much I might as well be speaking Portuguese when trying to converse with Taiwaners. What do I know? I'm just a lowly Chinese assembly line clone. Its not like I've spoken to tens of Taiwaner's in Mandarin when doing business. Your links are solid proof oh superior indian. A thousand apologies oh all-knowing DEMOCRATIC indian. What do we "Chini" communist drones know about mandarin? We're all mindless puppets are we not?
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
I may not be right.

The world I am quoting may not be right.

Just educate me with unimpeachable material that I am wrong!

You sure do know Mandarin and also the dialect of your region which may not be understood by other Chinese.

That is all!

The links are not Indian in any case.

They are international and one is British!

Just be careful when you are in Taiwan.

"tu dou" means peanut in Taiwan - but potato in mainland China!

And what you may say when ordering coffee at a Beijing cafe i,e, "coffee companion" - China's way of saying cream it will mean hiring a hostess to keep you company in Taiwan! :rofl:

But then, you know all!
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
I believe Uighurs are also feeling the monoculturalism of China

Uyghur nationalists, whose reinvigorated sentiment is an unintended result of China's minorities policy, have been distrustful of and dismayed at China's apparent intentions for development of the region, which appears to bring yet more monoculturalism in the form of Han favoritism and cultural assimilation.
http://www.eastwestcenter.org/fileadmin/stored/pdfs/PS015.pdf

We all know how the Tibetans feel and what is being done to them.

BTW, what is the latest the CCP is putting out regarding the 'problem' in Sichuan?

Real nuts they are for not wanting to become Hans and forgetting their heritage as other 'barbarians' have done!
 
Last edited:

Godless-Kafir

DFI Buddha
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
5,842
Likes
1,837
Country flag
Fine Ray, you're right. Taiwan Chinese and mainland Chinese dont understand eachother at all. In the 63 years we've been apart, the two forms of mandarin have differed SOOO much I might as well be speaking Portuguese when trying to converse with Taiwaners. What do I know? I'm just a lowly Chinese assembly line clone. Its not like I've spoken to tens of Taiwaner's in Mandarin when doing business. Your links are solid proof oh superior indian. A thousand apologies oh all-knowing DEMOCRATIC indian. What do we "Chini" communist drones know about mandarin? We're all mindless puppets are we not?
Well my dear Chinese friend finally you get the jest of it all..Now finally your a convert... :D
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
'More Stable' China's Cultural Assimilation campaign: cultural ethnic cleansing?

'The systemic destruction of Kashgar's iconic buildings in the Xinjian region, and the much-publicized assault on the Muslim Uighur culture' are just some examples of how China wages a grand campaign of cultural assimilation that it deems it badly needs for the creation of a 'more stable' China.

This is 'a state that can only be achieved, according to a government increasingly paranoid about instability, by having one Chinese identity.' Included, or even railroaded, in this grand campaign are citizens of Inner Mongolia and some of the many and various Chinese dialects spoken across the country.

Inner Mongolians are neither completely ethnic Mongolian nor Chinese enough. Ethnic Mongolians have, in fact, become a minority in their own land since the Chinese Communist Party took over 62 years ago turning the province into an 'inseparable part of China.'

Some of the dialects used in China are now considered endangered by UNESCO. These dialects 'have less than 1,000 surviving users.' Once used to preserve the unique differences between provinces, as well as the country's cultural diversity, these spoken forms are now 'quickly dwindling.'

Because the vast country was in need of a standardized form of communication, Chairman Mao Zedong radically reduced 'the number of strokes some of the ornate traditional characters included. Critics have continually complained that much of the essence and history of the language was removed during this process of orthography reformation.'

Recently, the State Language Department announced that 'new modifications to further standardize characters will be released this year.'

'More Stable' China's Cultural Assimilation campaign: cultural ethnic cleansing? | Trends Updates
The mantra is

'a state that can only be achieved, according to a government increasingly paranoid about instability, by having one Chinese identity.' Included, or even railroaded, in this grand campaign are citizens of Inner Mongolia and some of the many and various Chinese dialects spoken across the country.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
I may feel uncomfortable with the idea, but then China is doing well all because they are converting all into one monolith in all aspects as so lucidly enunciated by

'a state that can only be achieved, according to a government increasingly paranoid about instability, by having one Chinese identity.' Included, or even railroaded, in this grand campaign are citizens of Inner Mongolia and some of the many and various Chinese dialects spoken across the country.

"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer"
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top